I take it you are not very old. No amount of time will fix his back or any other muscles if he tries to drag that dead weight.
And what is the point of it? He could have done the hanging on a staircase.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9
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I take it you are not very old. No amount of time will fix his back or any other muscles if he tries to drag that dead weight.
And what is the point of it? He could have done the hanging on a staircase.
Just because the government didn't charge someone with murder, doesn't mean they believed he was innocent. It means they didn't have evidence to prove it was murder, or that that person did it.
The standards for evidence that law enforcement must abide by, before they bring murder charges, are very high, quite rightly. They're much more rigorous than the evidence that can be introduced into court by lawyers in a civil action for damages.
Civil lawyers, unlike government prosecutors, can rely on hearsay, innuendo and emotionally-charged re-enactment scenarios, whereas government prosecution against individuals should be based purely on proven facts.
Police and prosecutors have to prove guilt 'beyond a reasonable doubt', whereas in a civil case the jury can decide on a 'balance of probabilities', ie 51% murder vs 49% to suicide.
As well, the government will only bring very strong cases to court, that they really believe they can win. Obviously, it's extremely damaging to someone's life and reputation to be openly accused of murder by the government. Plus, it's considered a waste of taxpayers funds to prosecute someone just because they 'might' be guilty.
Whereas the family who launches a civil action is more obviously just expressing their version and feelings, and agrees to pay the costs themselves if they lose.
The jury in a civil trial is also, IMO, highly influenced to award damages when they are considering whether a rich person should pay money to poorer people who lost a loved one, versus when they are deciding to send someone to jail for the rest of their life.
jumping onto your post,
IF BS 'lost it' and killed Honey, he just had to take a bunch of pills with some liquor and it would be over. He had access to all manner of drugs and as Human said, there is NO need whatsoever to stage it if he was responsible.
According to his children and others, he was Jewish by birth but an atheist.
So the religious and cultural rules believed by Jewish people would not apply to Barry.
I believe that the TPS, as with all other police services, are run as a paramilitary organization. As such, agreement amongst the employees is not a requirement and may even be highly discouraged.
They are given orders and expected to carry them out. In the higher ranks, of course there are 'teams' working on crimes that may speak up/speak out but in general, its no democracy.
The 'beat cops' do the leg work, the detectives detect etc. After all the teams have their 'tasks' completed, they get together and brainstorm within their own ranks.
It works very well, a lot of things get done because of the lack of discussion at lower levels and hopefully, the Sherman murders will be solved at some point in time.
Remember, we, the public, do not have any idea what is going on behind the scenes.
Kittybunny
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If you are speaking in general I agree. If you are speaking of the Zahau case specifically, we will have to agree to disagree. Family did not ask for money other than lawyer fees. They took the word of the one the civil trial found culpable that Zahau committed suicide as gospel from the beginning, and did not collect much evidence that supported any other conclusion. I do believe that TPS is much much more competent and objective than the SDSO who handled that case. I am sure they have evidence, and agree, just because no one has been charged yet, does not mean they don't have a suspect.
I'm a lot older than you think. And no, he couldn't have done it from the staircase. Dragging a body down stairs is one thing, lifting it completely over a four foot railing while the neck is bound to it is another.
You guys are losing sight of a few things. He did not wake up planning to commit suicide. He likely never thought about it in his whole life. The idea of suicide was a result of the fact that he killed his wife. He knew his life, as he knew it, was over, so he decided a double suicide would be a good way out, covering his tracks in the process. He had already strangled Honey so pills were not an option.
I will agree with you that religion was likely the last thing on his mind.
Andreww, why would pills not be an option?? So what if he's strangled Honey.....he doesn't have to die the same way. Quick and painless would be an overdose. Hard to titrate for the average Joe but not for Barry, he'd even know how much to use to be successful.
Andreww, I'm sure they do have 'casual' chats if they have differing points of view but it wouldn't be brought into the office. That would be 'insubordination' of their immediate boss. Knowing a few police officers, they are no only happy to 'leave work AT work' but they are also under obligations to keep disclosure of crimes and evidentiary issues secret. So even 'casual' chats would have to be very limited. They cannot be chatting with pals over a few beers about how an idea or boss is 'being foolish' or not seeing the whole picture. Its just not allowed.
You do not seem well informed about the duties of police officers or a paramilitary organization.
If they could chat as you believe, how would anyone EVER get convicted of anything?? They are very tight lipped.....as per their requirements.
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ABro
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Police are not a paramilitary organization, which is why we read so much criticism of trends toward police militarization.
Not to mention that any good investigator today is aware of the dangers of "tunnel vision".
That said, we can all talk about how much dissenting opinions are tolerated even encouraged while the reality is far from the talk. Not all bosses, police or otherwise, welcome dissent.
We don't know what happened on this investigation. But what the lead investigator said was that six weeks of evidence led to the conclusion it was double homicide.
I do not fully trust TPS due to their sorry recent track record so murder suicide is still in play for me. But, that said, they knew the stakes in this investigation. While they might have thought -- and quite reasonably so -- it was murder suicide at first, they may have changed their mind within a few days.
I don't buy the Greenspan spin that they spent six weeks on murder suicide.
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Paramilitary is how the police forces in Canada are operated and structured.
Always have been, its a fact.
Militarization is not the same as paramilitary.
Apples and oranges.
I agree with your last statement, its just Greenspan spin.
Always have been, its a fact.
Militarization is not the same as paramilitary.
Apples and oranges.
I agree with your last statement, its just Greenspan spin.
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For one, if you are staging a double suicide, you don't use two different methods. And you are making a huge assumption that Barry had a house full of drugs just because he worked in the business. Does an air conditioning salesman have a garage full of air conditioners? And lastly, overdosing is probably the least successful method of suicide. There is always the possibility of surviving an attempted OD, no matter what you use or how much you take.
Then why are production orders only listing Honey as the victim? I their theory had changed early on, the production orders should have reflected that.
Policing | The Canadian Encyclopedia
"The public police in Canada are armed paramilitary services charged with the general responsibility of social control. The ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE, evolving from the 19th-century North-West Mounted Police, exist and operate under federal statute and contract their services in 8 provinces. Only Ontario and Québec have their own provincial forces and do not use the RCMP for rural or some municipal policing, while in Newfoundland the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary police St. John's, Cornerbrook and Labrador City. Other Canadian police services are governed by provincial legislation in the form of detailed police services acts."
"Most calls for service are handled by uniformed officers, but detective and CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION by specialized personnel is important and usually associated with major crimes. Major crimes investigations tend to be most prestigious in policing, and other activities such as domestic crisis intervention are viewed as unattractive and dangerous"
rbbm.
On the other hand..
Rise of the SWAT team: Routine police work in Canada is now militarized - Macleans.ca
"Rise of the SWAT team: Routine police work in Canada is now militarized
Opinion: Militarization changes what policing is by changing what police officers do
by Kevin Walby, University of Winnipeg and Brendan Roziere, University of Manitoba
Jan 25, 2018"
"As criminologist Peter Kraska has argued, the paramilitary subculture embraced by SWAT teams is influential on police officers, and tricky to scale back once normalized.
In Canada, there is no national policy or law regulating SWAT team conduct or growth."
Rise of the SWAT team: Routine police work in Canada is now militarized - Macleans.ca
"Rise of the SWAT team: Routine police work in Canada is now militarized
Opinion: Militarization changes what policing is by changing what police officers do
by Kevin Walby, University of Winnipeg and Brendan Roziere, University of Manitoba
Jan 25, 2018"
"As criminologist Peter Kraska has argued, the paramilitary subculture embraced by SWAT teams is influential on police officers, and tricky to scale back once normalized.
In Canada, there is no national policy or law regulating SWAT team conduct or growth."
According to the Harvard School of Public Health, cutting is the least successful method of suicide, not drugs.
As I've previously stated, BS would have the knowledge and means to get a lethal dose of medicine with NO trouble at all. He would also know how to titrate for his weight, make allowances for chemical reactions in a body etc and therefore be quite successful IMO.
The silliness of 'a house full of drugs', or 'a garage full of air conditioners' is just that, silly.
Why ever not?? They don't both have to die in the same manner at all.
IF and its a BIG 'IF', BS killed his wife and was distraught, he'd just want to die (if you buy this story). How, would not be a concern in his pique of madness.
Andreww,
I feel I have to address your belief that the Sherman's death was a murder/suicide.
Simply I ask you for a moment to assume you were an investigator who discovered the bodies and responsible to decide what happened. Disregard all you know already from the media, police, the lawyers etc.
You find two bodies hanging from a railing and you do not know who they are, other than this is a wealthy area.
What is your first reaction to what is going on, based on the position of the dead bodies, the pool of blood, the fact they have their coats on, their arms are somewhat restrained by the coats.
Would you say 'aha a murder/suicide'? or would you do further investigation.
I think you would want to further investigate. It might even take you six weeks to make a final conclusion. At this point you are not 100% positive but based on the evidence you have discovered, little of which supports the murder/suicide theory, you would likely declare it a double murder.
Now I know on this forum, you have refuted everything that does not support the murder/suicide conclusion. I also believe, short of Barry coming back from the grave and declaring he did not kill Honey, nothing will change your mind. That's okay, we need dissenting opinions to be able to fortify the M/M theories.
Please understand that you should keep an open mind though. I accept that I may be wrong about the M/M scenario. Hopefully, we will know the truth soon.
I feel I have to address your belief that the Sherman's death was a murder/suicide.
Simply I ask you for a moment to assume you were an investigator who discovered the bodies and responsible to decide what happened. Disregard all you know already from the media, police, the lawyers etc.
You find two bodies hanging from a railing and you do not know who they are, other than this is a wealthy area.
What is your first reaction to what is going on, based on the position of the dead bodies, the pool of blood, the fact they have their coats on, their arms are somewhat restrained by the coats.
Would you say 'aha a murder/suicide'? or would you do further investigation.
I think you would want to further investigate. It might even take you six weeks to make a final conclusion. At this point you are not 100% positive but based on the evidence you have discovered, little of which supports the murder/suicide theory, you would likely declare it a double murder.
Now I know on this forum, you have refuted everything that does not support the murder/suicide conclusion. I also believe, short of Barry coming back from the grave and declaring he did not kill Honey, nothing will change your mind. That's okay, we need dissenting opinions to be able to fortify the M/M theories.
Please understand that you should keep an open mind though. I accept that I may be wrong about the M/M scenario. Hopefully, we will know the truth soon.
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