Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[taylorss]

I haven’t kept up with this thread so sorry if this was already posted - but if not, there was a recent arrest in this (unrelated) case, a double-murder of two family members by another family member who staged the scene to look like murder/suicide.

After the arrest, LE’s comments described the exact scenario that I initially thought happened with the Sherman investigation when there was that bizarrely immediate “leak” of the M/S theory-

“Although Fairfax police media officials told reporters at the time the incident was an apparent murder-suicide, O’Carroll said Friday “detectives determined early in the investigation that the scene was staged.” Asked how long it took for detectives to rule out a murder-suicide, he said, “not very long at all” and “very, very soon.”

As for why the initial public report of a murder-suicide was not corrected by police media officials, Carroll said, “We always try to inform our community.” But he added, “Investigative strategy . . . is of the utmost importance,” suggesting detectives did not want the killer to know the ruse had failed.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...c6a620-e42c-11e8-ab2c-b31dcd53ca6b_story.html

 

[dotr]

Well friends, it is a slow news day on the Sherman thread when this is all I can come up with. But you may be interested in watching an upcoming episode (Nov. 12) of Murdoch Mysteries, which is based (kinda) on Barry and Honey's case.

Drowning in Money

Drowning in Money | Murdoch Mysteries Wiki | FANDOM ...
Drowning in Money is the eighth episode of the twelfth season and the one hundred seventy-sixth of the Murdoch Mysteries. It airs on November 12, 2018. When a wealthy, high society couple are found drowned in their pool in an apparent double suicide, Murdoch suspects murder. This episode takes...
murdochmysteries.wikia.com

Here is a sneak clip:
Drowning in Money

Bumping.. rbbm.
"Drowning in Money | Murdoch Mysteries Wiki | FANDOM ...
Drowning in Money is the eighth episode of the twelfth season and the one hundred seventy-sixth of the Murdoch Mysteries. It airs on November 12, 2018."
"This episode's headlines-inspired plot line is a direct lift from a current news story: The Barry and Honey Sherman case."

 

[casesensitive]

Thanks dotr--very interesting.

Crime Scene Staging Dynamics in Homicide Cases


Some further characteristics have been confirmed about staging:
1) Offenders are most often male
2) Victims are most often female
3) Victims and offenders almost always have a prior relationship.
4) Conflict between victims and offenders precede the murder.
5) Victims are most often discovered by offenders or reported missing.
6) Weapons are most often firearms. (this is an FBI publication)
7) Scenes most often staged as burglary/home invasion/ robbery types and suicides (more often than accidents or sexual homicides).
8) Offenders will verbally stage or lie toward facilitating the staged physical evidence and/or the crime scene.

Number 8: Verbal staging or lying is the act connected to either the offender falsely supporting the physical evidence staged in a crime scene by way of verbal discourse or verbally falsifying that the victim is missing....". In this case, that would be an offender verbally supporting the murder/suicide theory.

 

[JDG]

Sure would be good to have a break of any sort in this case. <sigh>

 

[WINDSOR]

The research posted regarding staging seems to point to the perpetrators being known to the Sherman's. That is supported by the 'no obvious signs of forced entry' evidence.

The research also suggests that it was someone with a closer relationship to the the victims than just an arms- length business deal gone bad. (BTW this has been my theory) If this is true in this case, that would be a bombshell!

The research also makes me wonder why, nobody tried to contact either Honey or Barry, when they did not show up the next day for their jobs/meetings/appointments? Maybe somebody did. Or somebody knew that the victims were unavailable. I am sure the TPS has gone through the Sherman's schedules for the days in question.

The idea that the offender would verbally support the M/S theory after the fact is interesting as well.

 

[Jbetty567]

Well, as far as the pool setting goes: a few things. One, the pool was in the basement level of the house. If I were a perp and I were planning to attack Honey as she got home and gain entry into the house, I would find out from her where Barry was most likely to come into the home, and wait for him there. Furthermore, the basement is most likely the safest place for a perp to wait it out and/or torture and kill people, just because he’s less likely to be seen by someone coming to the door or glancing in the windows. He could have kept them alive for hours for whatever reason (torture, mind games, trying to get info, whatever) - much safer to do it out of sight in the lower level. We have no idea whether this perp was aware of the layout of the home; perhaps he saw the pool and was struck by the idea of using the railings to suspend the couple. The humiliation concept is interesting to me ... again if I were a perp and I hated someone and wanted to humiliate them after death, I’d leave them naked. B&H were dressed.

 

[nuff]

The humiliation concept is interesting to me ... again if I were a perp and I hated someone and wanted to humiliate them after death, I’d leave them naked. B&H were dressed.

If the perp(s) had never killed before, they may have completely underestimated the difficulty of moving / manipulating / undressing dead bodies. Propping them up and tying them to the railing may have been enough of an unexpected struggle.

 

[Satchie]

If the perp(s) had never killed before, they may have completely underestimated the difficulty of moving / manipulating / undressing dead bodies. Propping them up and tying them to the railing may have been enough of an unexpected struggle.

I think this is a good point, it's one thing to dream up a scenario like this, and quite a different thing to carry it off. Unlikely you'd have a chance to practise it first. Hopefully that means the perps made mistakes that were picked up by police.

 

[JDG]

I keep wondering what is the meaning of hanging them from the railing, that's so very personal or a message to whom??

All I can think of is, animals are hung after slaughter to 'cure'. On hooks.
Does it signify 'dead meat' as in the expression?

If it was 'just' a case of killing, they'd be shot or strangled and left where they fell. IMO.

 

[dotr]

I keep wondering what is the meaning of hanging them from the railing, that's so very personal or a message to whom??

All I can think of is, animals are hung after slaughter to 'cure'. On hooks.
Does it signify 'dead meat' as in the expression?

If it was 'just' a case of killing, they'd be shot or strangled and left where they fell. IMO.

Wondering if the Sherman's were posed/kept upright by the belts attached to the pool bars to create the effect of two people simply sitting by the pool?
Perhaps the illusion might even cause anyone who saw them to just walk away and not disturb a private scene, or - entice them to enter the pool room for a closer look and therefore experience a greater horror at the discovery?
Maybe the killer/s had the S's appear semi-upright because it made for a better and more graphic photograph?
imo, speculation.
rbbm. Caution, pm pics at link.
“Mirrors With Memories”: Why Did Victorians Take Pictures of Dead People?
"Photographing the dead, however, was a tricky business, and required careful manipulation of the body, props, and equipment, either at the photographer’s studio or at the home of the deceased."

“The Victorians also did not use strings, wires, armatures, or anything else to pose the dead,” Zohn adds. “They weren’t meat puppets that were strung up and treated like meat. They were respectful and treated the dead with dignity."

 

[renah]

Mikveh, Water and Higher Consciousness | Reclaiming Judaism

Hope I did that right.

If the guilty party was familiar with Jewish tradition, I can think of several symbolic reasons to stage in front of water.

It's almost more likely to have done this because of the personal symbolism, than to be done just for sheer convienence. IMO.

That extra step took lots of added energy.

 

[taylorss]

IMO to put a victim’s body in any sort of artificial pose is dehumanizing and degrading - it mocks the life that the perp has taken. But like the link said, there different types of staging and IDK which one was at play here.

Was the scene “staged” in a conspicuous way, to send a message to survivors or to humiliate the victims?

Or was it “staged” in attempt to obscure what happened and suggest an alternative set of events, EG a double murder staged to look like M/S?

IDK which sort of staging the evidence here implies - actually I’m not even clear on what the evidence is. There are purported facts floating around, but which if any have actually been confirmed EG by LE? No sign of forced entry - fact or rumor? All external doors locked - fact? If yes, locked with a deadbolt / key, or pulled shut to engage an auto lock in handle? Etc

 

[dotr]

Mikveh, Water and Higher Consciousness | Reclaiming Judaism

Hope I did that right.

If the guilty party was familiar with Jewish tradition, I can think of several symbolic reasons to stage in front of water.

It's almost more likely to have done this because of the personal symbolism, than to be done just for sheer convienence. IMO.

That extra step took lots of added energy.

Initial Care of the Deceased
"The position of the body should be so oriented that the feet face the doorway. Other than this, the deceased should not be touched or moved, except for his own honor (such as straightening the body if it is found in an awkward position, or moving it if it has been found in environs not considered sufficiently respectful). Some Orthodox Jews retain the custom of placing the body on the floor approximately 20 minutes after death and pouring water on the floor as a sign to friends and neighbors that a death has occurred."

"From the moment of death until burial, the deceased may not be left alone."

 

[renah]

Initial Care of the Deceased
"The position of the body should be so oriented that the feet face the doorway. Other than this, the deceased should not be touched or moved, except for his own honor (such as straightening the body if it is found in an awkward position, or moving it if it has been found in environs not considered sufficiently respectful). Some Orthodox Jews retain the custom of placing the body on the floor approximately 20 minutes after death and pouring water on the floor as a sign to friends and neighbors that a death has occurred."

"From the moment of death until burial, the deceased may not be left alone."

What is described here is respectful treatment of the deceased. I feel the staging of the Shermans was exactly the opposite. IMO it was more of a taunt: "Here is the water of truth, and you shall never reach it" or maybe "Thirst forever for comfort, see but never reach".

That said, I do believe there was a crucial element of convenience (Honey likely entered the house on that level) but something compelled the killer to take it that further step, to make a statement and probably appease their own inner rage.

 

[Satchie]

Was the scene “staged” in a conspicuous way, to send a message to survivors or to humiliate the victims?

Or was it “staged” in attempt to obscure what happened and suggest an alternative set of events, EG a double murder staged to look like M/S?

RSBM
I was thinking this as well. However, if it was staged to look like murder-suicide, it would make more sense to leave Honey on the ground. It surely can't be an attempt to stage a murder-suicide that was staged by Barry to look like double suicide? My mind boggles.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

..

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Initial Care of the Deceased
"The position of the body should be so oriented that the feet face the doorway. Other than this, the deceased should not be touched or moved, except for his own honor (such as straightening the body if it is found in an awkward position, or moving it if it has been found in environs not considered sufficiently respectful). Some Orthodox Jews retain the custom of placing the body on the floor approximately 20 minutes after death and pouring water on the floor as a sign to friends and neighbors that a death has occurred."

"From the moment of death until burial, the deceased may not be left alone."

Barry’s positioning of his crossed legs and glasses on seems respectful, IMO. From what you quoted it seems that the rest of the scene was for Honey, perhaps?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Wondering if the Sherman's were posed/kept upright by the belts attached to the pool bars to create the effect of two people simply sitting by the pool?
Perhaps the illusion might even cause anyone who saw them to just walk away and not disturb a private scene, or - entice them to enter the pool room for a closer look and therefore experience a greater horror at the discovery?
Maybe the killer/s had the S's appear semi-upright because it made for a better and more graphic photograph?
imo, speculation.
rbbm. Caution, pm pics at link.
“Mirrors With Memories”: Why Did Victorians Take Pictures of Dead People?
"Photographing the dead, however, was a tricky business, and required careful manipulation of the body, props, and equipment, either at the photographer’s studio or at the home of the deceased."

“The Victorians also did not use strings, wires, armatures, or anything else to pose the dead,” Zohn adds. “They weren’t meat puppets that were strung up and treated like meat. They were respectful and treated the dead with dignity."

I agree.

When the realtor discovered the Shermans they turned on their heels and left quickly upstairs. I’m wondering if the positioning and location of the bodies was in part for that effect.

They would appear from the view outside the pool to be unmistakably dead. The killer(s) staged the scene, maybe they wanted to prevent someone like the maid from rushing in and disturbing it, leaving it set for the first responders.

Slumped over or lying down, I think a person might rush to administer aid or roll them over.

 

[Satchie]

Sure would be good to have a break of any sort in this case. <sigh>

It's taken 2 1/2 years for charges to be laid in the Pike County case. Plenty of theories during that time, especially around it being a professional hit, related to the drug trade. But it was very personal, hard to believe extended family/former friends/neighbours could be so cold-blooded. Police were silent, but not because they weren't doing anything.

 

[JDG]

Why were BSs' legs crossed??

Post #611

In Mikveh, Water and Higher Consciousness, it explains about the Hebrew word for Truth.

'spread your legs comfortably and reach your hands upwards.....'.

Perhaps crossing his legs was to keep him from all the benefits of water, which is so very important in the Jewish Life.

Perhaps it indicates that he was not truthful, a liar. In front of G_d.

IMO, there is a lot of symbolism in the staging of the bodies. A way to insult or denigrate them after death.

Just my opinion.