Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[JDG]

Satchie, there are many murders that take over two or more years to solve, agreed.

As a sleuther, I'm just a bit impatient but that's my problem.

 

[renah]

Why were BSs' legs crossed??

Post #611

In Mikveh, Water and Higher Consciousness, it explains about the Hebrew word for Truth.

'spread your legs comfortably and reach your hands upwards.....'.

Perhaps crossing his legs was to keep him from all the benefits of water, which is so very important in the Jewish Life.

Perhaps it indicates that he was not truthful, a liar. In front of G_d.

IMO, there is a lot of symbolism in the staging of the bodies. A way to insult or denigrate them after death.

Just my opinion.

I agree. And mocking: Barry's glasses placed on his face. Almost like "Here you go, now you can clearly see what you will never attain"!

 

[JDG]

Just an add-on.

I think the pool had a pool cover on it, thus making it 'waterless'.

Water, in the Jewish faith, represents G_d. No water, no G_d.

Crossed legged in front of a waterless pool. Just a thought.

IMO, MOO

 

[taylorss]

This line of speculation presumes the killer is a religious Jew ? BS himself wasn’t religious so the symbolism wouldn’t be on his account

 

[JDG]

Barry and Honey are dead, its not FOR them but its ABOUT them. Somehow.
It will 'tell' all of their influential friends and their family...whatever its meant to say.

Why would the killer have to be a religious Jew? Anyone can be given instructions on how to stage the bodies.

I think it was def. more than one person, it was done quickly, then staged.

Its just a theory, along with everything else we don't know. lol

Hope the crime gets solved someday.

 

[renah]

This line of speculation presumes the killer is a religious Jew ? BS himself wasn’t religious so the symbolism wouldn’t be on his account

One can be Jewish without being religious or steeped & instructed in the faith. My parents were agnostic non-practicing Jews and I always surprise myself knowing obscure or very specific things about Jewish life and beliefs. It's as much an ethnicity as it is a religion.

It's impossible to grow up around even non-practicing Jews and not absorb certain fundamentals, I think.

With something as primal as the urge & action of murder, I'm not even certain that the killer would be consciously aware of his or her motivation behind the staging, but all actions spring from the Self, conscious or not.

IF the staging by the pool has any symbolic/unconscious significance, then yes, that is on the perpetrator and not Barry, of course.

I'll be quiet again, now that I've had my say about the pool staging question which for some reason I couldn't resist. I'm just not articulate enough to hang with you guys, though I avidly read this thread-- Besides being such a (to put it mildly) disquieting crime, the level of intellect & civility here is truly admirable!

 

[Satchie]

I'll be quiet again, now that I've had my say about the pool staging question which for I'm just not articulate enough to hang with you guys,

RSBM

Post away, you're very articulate and new ideas are always welcome. It takes a while to be comfortable with putting your thoughts out there, but it's also a very good workout for the mind, IMO. Although rather addictive, so perhaps run while you still can.

 

[deugirtni]

Thanks guys, for posting those articles about staging. Interesting to note that it seems police may indeed know things, while they remain silent as they go about their work, and don't bother to 'correct', since they never actually stated that it was a certain thing. It's been a bit boggling for me lately, so not sure if one of the staging crimes mentioned, was one I read about this morning. A woman had killed her mom and sister, and made it appear to be a murder/suicide. Apparently police were onto it long before they said so. Now the sister has been charged. (Helen and Pamela Hargan: VA - Helen Hargan, 23, Pamela Hargan, 63, Staged Murder-Suicide, McLean, 14 Jul '17 *Arrest*)
So there is a possibility that LE aren't as incompetent as they appear? Let's hope?
I don't think it can be said with any confidence from anyone that Honey's was the only name on any of the warrants/orders, since some of them remain sealed, and we can't know whose name was on THOSE.
I wonder why the bodies weren't staged to face the OTHER way? Would it not make more sense to have them actually 'hanging' from the railing, with legs going down into the water, rather than semi-sitting, with backs facing the person who makes the discovery? Either way, murders or M/S, wouldn't that make more sense?
renah's point about being Jewish without being religious is an important one to keep in mind. Although B was an Atheist, it seems that H was not, and that they raised their kids in the Jewish faith/tradition. Jews have a culture, a shared history, no matter if they're believers in God. Personally, I don't believe religion played a role in this.

 

[deugirtni]

I've been wondering about the 'pool of blood' that H was reportedly 'seated' above. I can't imagine there being enough from some nose and lip scratches to create a 'pool'. I'm wondering if it's possible that H may have been 'strangled' with some kind of 'ligature' (like say wire perhaps?), so tightly that it caused her neck to bleed out? I recall that MSM has stated the couple died of neck compression, and were THEN hung.. in one of the articles it said the belts used to hang with, were not the 'ligature' used to 'compress'. (I think that was only stated in one article, IIRC?) If officers arrived to find that H's neck had been bleeding out onto the pool deck, and then she was hung, while perhaps B's neck wasn't injured the same way, that could have easily led LE to assume at first glance that it was M/S. If the murderers had planned to stage this to appear to be M/S, that could explain why the two were different, if they were.

 

[JDG]

Renah, please do start posting. Your posts are great and thought provoking.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

This line of speculation presumes the killer is a religious Jew ? BS himself wasn’t religious so the symbolism wouldn’t be on his account

Maybe the killer(s) felt remorse after one or both of the deaths? Or it’s less of their concern for the Shermans’ last rights, but more a reflection of the killer’s ingrained beliefs that were on autopilot.

 

[WINDSOR]

Thank you all for the input on Jewish beliefs, customs and symbols surrounding death. very insightful. If the staging was based on these Jewish traditions, it then would be logical to assume that the perpetrator(s) were likely Jewish or very cognizant of Jewish beliefs. If one continues on with that assumption, it reduces the number of person of interests substantially.

a) Known to victims. (no sign of forced entry)
b) Personal nature of the murders. (not a simple shooting)
c) Jewish 'symbols'. (staging might be based on Jewish faith and traditions)

Based on the FBI research and the above, it is becoming a little sad to think that the perpetrator(s) might have been close to Honey and Barry in terms of friendship or relationship. I still have not given up on revengeful business partnership theory, but I am keeping an open mind.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Bloomberg article from October 24th:

The lone surveillance camera at the house was located, oddly enough, in the pool area, but it hadn’t been turned on for a long time, perhaps years.

This Bloomberg article IIRC is the first MSM confirmation about security cameras in the home.


Made me think of this post:

ETA: KW wrote ‘camera’ singular. And Bloomberg confirmed there was only one camera in the house.

 

[dotr]

Maybe the killer(s) felt remorse after one or both of the deaths? Or it’s less of their concern for the Shermans’ last rights, but more a reflection of the killer’s ingrained beliefs that were on autopilot.

Whether or not the Shermans or the killer was Jewish and/or religious- the " audience" for this tragedy would predominantly be from the Jewish community...

For that matter, the Chinese couple viewing the house, were particularly offended by the discovery.....
Hmm, "'This is a joke,' realtor thought" did the killer/s think it was funny?
rbbm. imo, speculation.

Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News
"'This is a joke,' realtor thought

The news conference came on the same day CBC published details of an interview with a Toronto real estate agent revealing new information about finding the couple's bodies.

The agent was touring the Sherman mansion with wealthy Chinese clients when they came across what appeared to be two bodies in the basement pool area of the home.

The agent said he and his clients were surprised at what they saw, and couldn't believe the bodies were actually real.

"This is a joke, something left over from Halloween," recalled the agent.

The agent, who was working for the prospective buyers and not the Shermans, has requested CBC News not identify him due to concerns for his safety.
He said he learned a couple of days after touring the Sherman home that the bodies in the pool area were real.

"It was scary," he recalled.

His clients were upset, too, after finding out what they'd really seen.

"They were angry," he recalled. The agent described them as being from mainland China and superstitious. They worried witnessing such a sight was a harbinger of bad things to come."

 

[casesensitive]

I think hanging the bodies facing the pool water would be difficult. Trying to wrangle the belts to the railing, with the dead weight of the bodies, could have chanced dropping them in the pool. (There was also a pool cover in place). I don't think the belts would be long enough for them to be attached to the railing first and then twist the bodies around to face the water. That would cause the belts to twist around the necks another 180 degrees.
When you think about it, the perp must have been quite strong to hoist their bodies (rears) off the floor while attaching the belts to the railing. That could suggest that more than one person was needed to accomplish this.

Picture of pool:
Sources reveal details of ‘suspicious’ deaths of Apotex founder Barry Sherman and wife Honey

 

[PostTruth]

I can't imagine Honey herself having a lot of enemies, like Barry did, in the impersonal world of litigation and business. Whoever killed them must've been quite close to them or at least knew them in some private capacity, where ill-will between her and them was present and probably longstanding. Would not be surprised if police are looking at that.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I think hanging the bodies facing the pool water would be difficult. Trying to wrangle the belts to the railing, with the dead weight of the bodies, could have chanced dropping them in the pool. (There was also a pool cover in place). I don't think the belts would be long enough for them to be attached to the railing first and then twist the bodies around to face the water. That would cause the belts to twist around the necks another 180 degrees.
When you think about it, the perp must have been quite strong to hoist their bodies (rears) off the floor while attaching the belts to the railing. That could suggest that more than one person was needed to accomplish this.

Picture of pool:
Sources reveal details of ‘suspicious’ deaths of Apotex founder Barry Sherman and wife Honey

From the CBC https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4878887

Looking through a large glass door they could see two bodies "on the steps leading to the pool" several metres away.

So, the Shermans were attached to the circled railing facing the glass door?



Floorplan:

 

[JDG]

I think the door is down at the other end of the pool area.
They were facing the glass block wall.

If you look at your floor plan, there is a long corridor leading to the door at the end of the hall. That is opposite the 'plant' on the right hand side, door on left but the Shermans were at the other end of the pool area. Hot tub is also at far end of pool area but right across from where I think they were found.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I think the door is down at the other end of the pool area.
They were facing the glass block wall.

If you look at your floor plan, there is a long corridor leading to the door at the end of the hall. That is opposite the 'plant' on the right hand side, door on left but the Shermans were at the other end of the pool area. Hot tub is also at far end of pool area but right across from where I think they were found.

Do you mean in the area I marked off with the green square? There are no steps to the pool there.
.

 

[JDG]

No. Way down at the other end of the 'room'. There is some sort of enclosure, perhaps a glass pane wall. To the left side, there are one or two exits to the long corridor in the floor plan. You need to compare both to see that the hallway TO the pool area is at the opposite end to the hot tub. same side of the wall though. Left hand side of picture, opposite the 'plant' on a table.
Hope that helps.