Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

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andreww said "Very simply actually. Barry is wanting to stage this as a murder"

Given the understanding that Barry was an independent thinker and did not always follow 'conventions' why do you believe that after killing Honey and planning to kill himself, he would then say to himself
"I have to make it look like a double murder, so people will not think I am an 'a--hole' and the family name will not be besmirched." Honey cared about appearances, but not Barry.

Barry going to all that trouble to try and impress or deceive anybody/somebody does not make sense to me.
With all due respect, and understanding that people are allowed to change their minds, andreww has also expressed his opinion that BS was trying to stage it as a double suicide. Obviously double suicide just doesn't work, since HS's face was marked up and from somewhere in her body, she bled out a 'pool' of blood. If BS was to try to make it appear to be a double murder, I'm confident he was intelligent enough to do a better job of it, ie, break some stuff, maybe remove some valuables out of the home, break a lock or two, cut himself up a bit. The man had time on his hands. If he was able to leave the home without detection to dispose of the wrist bindings, then he just as easily could have also disposed of some valuables to make it look like a theft or home invastion or something.. even a sexual assault perhaps, on HS.
Clearly, murders ARE also staged to make murders look like different *types* of murders, as can be found freely on the internet.
It seems to make much more sense to think that someone who committed murder, would want to make it appear to be murder/suicide to ward off detection.

"Among key problems for any investigator, and the reason why staging might succeed, is the cognitive error known as threshold diagnosis, which leads to tunnel vision. That is, investigators might decide what must have happened as soon as they arrive, which tends to anchor them in their hypothesis. They fail to notice items that might discount their notions. An inconsistency, such as Jocelyn’s habit of writing by hand, can be easily minimized and dismissed.

This is why even an amateur stager can fool detectives.
....
The basis for a solid investigation is victimology, and Pettler describes this approach. Since most victims knew the offender in those crime scenes that she analyzed, she insists that a full victimology be performed.

The bottom line for her is to bring more awareness to the problem of homicide staging and the need for investigative training.

I’m working on a study of suicide notes and I’m amazed at how many death investigators have said to me, “If there’s a note, it’s a suicide.” That the scene could be staged doesn’t seem to register unless it’s obvious. Yet I have a collection of faked suicide notes from homicides."

Staging Murder
 
andreww said "Very simply actually. Barry is wanting to stage this as a murder"

Given the understanding that Barry was an independent thinker and did not always follow 'conventions' why do you believe that after killing Honey and planning to kill himself, he would then say to himself
"I have to make it look like a double murder, so people will not think I am an 'a--hole' and the family name will not be besmirched." Honey cared about appearances, but not Barry.

Barry going to all that trouble to try and impress or deceive anybody/somebody does not make sense to me.

Plus the fact is the bodies were not staged as double murder, they were staged as a double suicide. So it’s impossible that Barry, from the grave, could ever have predicted staging his and his wife’s body to appear as if a suicide took place would later be determined to have been the result of a double homicide.

No doubt the man was highly intelligent and surely he could’ve concocted a far more obvious murder scene than a merely display of double suicide, if he were the mastermind behind the situation.
 
Sources say Pickup saw indications that it might be a case of double murder. However, Pickup did not make that ruling. Neither Pickup or his boss, chief forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Pollanen, would discuss the case with the Star, citing provincial privacy rules.

We know that both Pickup and Pollanen have been tight lipped about this matter. The only person that they have spoken to about this is Chiasson. Low and behold sources reveal what are purported to be their findings to the Star. Who do you think leaked that info? Let's be very clear that Chiasson has been retained by the Sherman family to find evidence of murder. So it seems we have three professionals, two of which are sitting on the fence, being convinced by the only one that has a stake in the race. I'm not saying he is wrong, but to my knowledge this is the key piece of evidence that seemed to change the direction of the investigation and I don't like the fact that the two people that were in charge were swayed by somebody that was working directly for the family.
 
We know that both Pickup and Pollanen have been tight lipped about this matter. The only person that they have spoken to about this is Chiasson. Low and behold sources reveal what are purported to be their findings to the Star. Who do you think leaked that info? Let's be very clear that Chiasson has been retained by the Sherman family to find evidence of murder. So it seems we have three professionals, two of which are sitting on the fence, being convinced by the only one that has a stake in the race. I'm not saying he is wrong, but to my knowledge this is the key piece of evidence that seemed to change the direction of the investigation and I don't like the fact that the two people that were in charge were swayed by somebody that was working directly for the family.

If you have a link to Chausson being “the source” to any media stories, please share it. Don’t we all know by now that sometimes “sources” provide reliable information, sometimes not and other times it’s somewhere in between.
 
It seems to make much more sense to think that someone who committed murder, would want to make it appear to be murder/suicide to ward off detection.

You've made my point brilliantly. If this was a murder staged to be a double suicide, why use the jackets as straight jackets? That makes absolutely no sense.
 
If you have a link to Chausson being “the source” to any media stories, please share it. Don’t we all know by now that sometimes “sources” provide reliable information, sometimes not and other times it’s somewhere in between.
You think I'm wrong on that?
 
We know that both Pickup and Pollanen have been tight lipped about this matter. The only person that they have spoken to about this is Chiasson. Low and behold sources reveal what are purported to be their findings to the Star. Who do you think leaked that info? Let's be very clear that Chiasson has been retained by the Sherman family to find evidence of murder. So it seems we have three professionals, two of which are sitting on the fence, being convinced by the only one that has a stake in the race. I'm not saying he is wrong, but to my knowledge this is the key piece of evidence that seemed to change the direction of the investigation and I don't like the fact that the two people that were in charge were swayed by somebody that was working directly for the family.

You are totally ignoring another possibility that swayed the original forensic scientists--namely scientific proof.
You really think that TPS never spoke to Pickup and Pollanen?
 
Plus the fact is the bodies were not staged as double murder, they were staged as a double suicide. So it’s impossible that Barry, from the grave, could ever have predicted staging his and his wife’s body to appear as if a suicide took place would later be determined to have been the result of a double homicide.

No doubt the man was highly intelligent and surely he could’ve concocted a far more obvious murder scene than a merely display of double suicide, if he were the mastermind behind the situation.
Who said they were staged as a double suicide? If Barry had wanted people to think that, a note would have been an easy way to do it. The obvious injuries to Honey's face precluded that idea from the start.
 
You are totally ignoring another possibility that swayed the original forensic scientists--namely scientific proof.
You really think that TPS never spoke to Pickup and Pollanen?
Again, for the millionth time, the production orders tell the story of the theory TPS was working.
 
You've made my point brilliantly. If this was a murder staged to be a double suicide, why use the jackets as straight jackets? That makes absolutely no sense.
Nobody said the jackets were being used as straight jackets. I have posted at least twice that it's possible that after the wrist bindings were removed, and the bodies were hanging there limp with no muscle tone, it would be easy for the jackets to slip down off the shoulders a bit. At first glance it may have been considered as a possibility that the jackets being that way could've been used as straight jackets.
All I know is.... it sure doesn't seem to have been staged as a double murder. It sure doesn't seem to have been staged as a double suicide. Yet it sure does seem to have been staged. So what does that leave? To me, it only leaves being staged to appear as a murder suicide. The only person who *would NOT* have wanted it to appear as a murder suicide, would have been BS. So who *would* have wanted it to appear to be a murder suicide? Anyone got any guesses??
 
You've made my point brilliantly. If this was a murder staged to be a double suicide, why use the jackets as straight jackets? That makes absolutely no sense.

We talked about this already. If each of the victims wrists were bound together because they were attacked and restrained when each of them arrived home, how do you suppose it’d have been possible for their coats to have removed? Try binding your wrists together and then removing a coat, it’s impossible!

In a staged suicide scene, it’s possible the killer thought it prudent after positioning the bodies on the railing to remove the wrist bindings and then pose the coats in such a way to appear as arm restraints in the staging of a double suicide scene. Until such time as a trial occurs and we learn of more evidence, it’s a futile effort to refute the unknown.
 
Since HS was apparently the co-owner of Apotex, if she was not killed wondering what if any changes would be made at the company?

Still trying to figure out why Honey would be targeted and her body found seemingly a little worse for wear than Barry's body?
Is it because she would know who did it, or just to get her out of the way so that Barry could be more easily attacked, or the other way around with HS as the primary target?
Do these deaths have nothing at all to do with BS's business dealings and something to do with Honey's various interests and activities?
speculation, imo.
 
Again, for the millionth time, the production orders tell the story of the theory TPS was working.
How can you be confident about that when there are search warrants/production orders which remain sealed to this day, and we therefore have no idea who/what was being looked at, in addition to the ones which the media has access to? If media published the contents of ALL of the production/search warrants, would it perhaps tell a different story which perhaps police don't want the public to know about yet?
 
Nobody said the jackets were being used as straight jackets. I have posted at least twice that it's possible that after the wrist bindings were removed, and the bodies were hanging there limp with no muscle tone, it would be easy for the jackets to slip down off the shoulders a bit. At first glance it may have been considered as a possibility that the jackets being that way could've been used as straight jackets.
All I know is.... it sure doesn't seem to have been staged as a double murder. It sure doesn't seem to have been staged as a double suicide. Yet it sure does seem to have been staged. So what does that leave? To me, it only leaves being staged to appear as a murder suicide. The only person who *would NOT* have wanted it to appear as a murder suicide, would have been BS. So who *would* have wanted it to appear to be a murder suicide? Anyone got any guesses??
I highly doubt that both jackets would fall off an upright body. Put on a jacket, sit upright, and see if you can make the jacket even move just by repacking your muscles.

For the reasons I have already provided it would be futile to stage this as a double suicide. Honey was leaving a pool of blood below her.

And yes it is an odd staging of a double murder. But when your starting point is a dead wife who'd been strangled and beaten, you have to make do.
 
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Again, for the millionth time, the production orders tell the story of the theory TPS was working.

TPS never secreted the fact during the early weeks last January the Sherman deaths had been investigated as murder/suicide, double suicide or double homicide.

Time moves on.....following that, the deaths were announced to have been determined to be the result of double homicide.
 
How can you be confident about that when there are search warrants/production orders which remain sealed to this day, and we therefore have no idea who/what was being looked at, in addition to the ones which the media has access to? If media published the contents of ALL of the production/search warrants, would it perhaps tell a different story which perhaps police don't want the public to know about yet?
Fair enough, but if this is being investigated as a double murder, both Honey and Barry should be listed as victims on all production orders.
 
TPS never secreted the fact during the early weeks last January the Sherman deaths had been investigated as murder/suicide, double suicide or double homicide.

Time moves on.....following that, the deaths were announced to have been determined to be the result of double homicide.
Same people decided Wayne Millard killed himself.
 
I highly doubt that bot jackets would fall off an upright body. Put on a jacket, sit upright, and see if you can make the jacket even move just by repacking your muscles.

For the reasons I have already provided it would be futile to stage this as a double suicide. Honey was leaving a pool of blood below her.

And yes it is an odd staging of a double murder. But when your starting point is a dead wife who'd been strangled and beaten, you have to make do.
Conversely, tie your neck to a 3.5 foot bar so that you're kind of sitting there with feet outstretched in front of you, and get rid of all of your muscle-tone, even the involuntary muscle-tone, and see how straight you're sitting up, and how easy it would be to keep a winter jacket that was not zipped/buttoned up, on your body perfectly?
Right, it wasn't staged as a double suicide, it was staged as a murder/suicide - it's the only thing that even remotely fits. Seems to me like someone wanted police to believe it was M/S.
 
I highly doubt that bot jackets would fall off an upright body. Put on a jacket, sit upright, and see if you can make the jacket even move just by repacking your muscles.

For the reasons I have already provided it would be futile to stage this as a double suicide. Honey was leaving a pool of blood below her.

And yes it is an odd staging of a double murder. But when your starting point is a dead wife who'd been strangled and beaten, you have to make do.

Wasn’t it you who claimed this to be a rage induced domestic incident? Why on earth would someone who murdered their wife “make do” by setting up an elaborate double suicide scene, predicting it would appear as a double murder? That’s well beyond even poorly written fiction.
 
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