Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[andreww]

And yet the TPS have described it as a double homicide.

That is true, yet there was a lot of outside pressure to come to that conclusion. I'd like to have some kind of explanation as to what evidence they have that made them come to that conclusion, though I doubt we'll ever see any. At this point its a little too late for them to back peddle, so as I've said from the beginning, this case is dead in the water.

And let's not forget TPS labeled Wayne Millards death a suicide. Just because they say its so, doesn't make it so

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Not sure what you are asking, if it is why he removed Honey's bindings I'd say that the idea would be that he was trying to portray a scenario where they were both murdered together. It would only make sense that if one was bound with laces, the other would be too.

Would skin abrasions be different after death? Possibly, possibly not.

As far as ownership of the items used, to this point we have absolutely no evidence that any "tool" was used that came from outside of the home. The belts and the jackets belonged to the Shermans. I find it unfathomable to believe that a murderer would tie their wrists, hang them up, remove the ties, then apply the jackets as a binding mechanism.

Again, as I said earlier, staging has only one purpose, to make one thing appear to be something else. You do not stage a murder to look like another type of murder. You might stage it to look like an accident or you might stage it to look like a suicide. We know this wasn't an accident, and the jackets acting as arm restraints tells me that this is not staged as a suicide.

Maybe the restraints are distinctive and would link them to the killer. Say, zip ties from a construction site. Maybe the murderer wanted a trophy.

 

[andreww]

Maybe the restraints are distinctive and would link them to the killer. Say, zip ties from a construction site. Maybe the murderer wanted a trophy.

So you are saying that the killer went there and the only thing he took was Zip ties? You don't think thats reaching?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

So you are saying that the killer went there and the only thing he took was Zip ties? You don't think thats reaching?

Yes, I’m reaching.

He might have brought a few things there and cleaned up after himself. IIRC we only have only ‘sourced’ information about the restraints.

 

[dotr]

Maybe the restraints are distinctive and would link them to the killer. Say, zip ties from a construction site. Maybe the murderer wanted a trophy.

The (rumoured) restraints could have been handcuffs that were removed after use, then taken away or stashed somewhere.
imo, speculation. rbbm.
WARMINGTON: Sherman mansion security underscores Toronto Police staffing issues

"Since the suspicious “ligature neck compression” deaths of philanthropists Barry and Honey Sherman on Dec. 14, 2017, every imaginable investigative tool and technique has been deployed at their at 50 Old Colony Road mansion.

— A search of the roof with help from a Toronto Fire crane and bucket.

— Storm sewers scouring with a giant magnet.

— The 12,000-square-foot mansion has been forensically investigated from top to bottom.

— The entire neighbourhood has been canvassed, video cameras studied and cell-phone calls scrutinized."

"On Wednesday, a Toronto Police forensics officer with a metal detector was up in the snow-filled front yard of a home on Forest Heights Blvd., which backs the Sherman home.

What could she have been looking for?

A gun, knife or metal wiring? A house key? A cellphone or computer card?"

 

[ldlager]

The (rumoured) restraints could have been handcuffs that were removed after use, then taken away or stashed somewhere.
imo, speculation. rbbm.
WARMINGTON: Sherman mansion security underscores Toronto Police staffing issues

"Since the suspicious “ligature neck compression” deaths of philanthropists Barry and Honey Sherman on Dec. 14, 2017, every imaginable investigative tool and technique has been deployed at their at 50 Old Colony Road mansion.

— A search of the roof with help from a Toronto Fire crane and bucket.

— Storm sewers scouring with a giant magnet.

— The 12,000-square-foot mansion has been forensically investigated from top to bottom.

— The entire neighbourhood has been canvassed, video cameras studied and cell-phone calls scrutinized."

"On Wednesday, a Toronto Police forensics officer with a metal detector was up in the snow-filled front yard of a home on Forest Heights Blvd., which backs the Sherman home.

What could she have been looking for?

A gun, knife or metal wiring? A house key? A cellphone or computer card?"

I wonder if the police officer in the picture knows he is holding the metal detector upside down? Maybe that’s why they didn’t find the earring.......

 

[1&2&3]

I wonder if the police officer in the picture knows he is holding the metal detector upside down? Maybe that’s why they didn’t find the earring.......

Too funny.... or too incapable of doing the job??

What is the story on this?

 

[JDG]

Post #701 Andreww,

I suppose when there is a trial, that's when you'll get your 'evidence' of a double murder.

IMO, its far too soon to declare the investigation 'dead in the water'. Plenty of murders take a couple of years to solve, then awhile to come to trial.

This wasn't your 'average' murder, its a bit complex. Just a bit.

 

[Satchie]

Mark Twain has a long, funny story about a pioneering expedition, the point being: even if a mule falls down the chimney of your makeshift house on a canyon ledge, the third time it happens you're apt to declare "This thing is growing monotonous!".

 

[dotr]

I don’t think they’re actors or PR professionals. At that stage of their lives, they had nothing to prove to anyone.

I believed the m/s theory in the beginning when the police seemed to be saying what it was.

The ligature marks on their wrists changed my mind. How do you explain them?

Why prop HS up after death?

Looking at Barry's watch and the large watch Honey is wearing in the video posted up thread and wondered if it was ever revealed whether it was the right, left or both wrists which purportedly showed marks after death?
Might swelling around the watches cause those marks, were they wearing watches when they were found?

BS was" propped up" but he almost seems to have been left " tidy " ie. wearing his eyeglasses, legs crossed at the ankle, HS was " propped "too, yet was slumped over, sitting on her own blood with marks of some sort on her face..
imo, speculation.

 

[dotr]

Came across this 2001 article fwiw, bbm.
Private Sector; The Good, the Bad and the Generic
"Both Apotex's fight with Dr. Olivieri and its willingness to give the government a break on the Cipro purchase are entirely consistent with how Mr. Sherman operates, others in the pharmaceutical industry say. Sensing a threat to his business, he can become combative, litigious and aggressive; sensing an opportunity for good publicity, he can be friendly and generous.

It is a strategy Mr. Sherman has used since he took over his less forceful uncle's small generic drug maker in the 1960's and built it into Canada's biggest pharmaceutical company."
"Mr. Sherman, 59, and his wife, Honey, still own almost all Apotex's stock."

"Little love is now lost between Mr. Sherman and Leslie Dan, Novopharm's chief executive. ''It's one thing to be successful, it's another to be a decent human being,'' Mr. Dan said in a telephone interview, referring to what he viewed as Mr. Sherman's unacceptable business behavior."

"Now, after the Cipro order, Mr. Sherman has received death threats, Mr. Betito said. The intense publicity had made everyone in the company ''very nervous,'' he added."

 

[deugirtni]

Looking at Barry's watch and the large watch Honey is wearing in the video posted up thread and wondered if it was ever revealed whether it was the right, left or both wrists which purportedly showed marks after death?
Might swelling around the watches cause those marks, were they wearing watches when they were found?

BS was" propped up" but he almost seems to have been left " tidy " ie. wearing his eyeglasses, legs crossed at the ankle, HS was " propped "too, yet was slumped over, sitting on her own blood with marks of some sort on her face..
imo, speculation.

MSM reported that each person's wrists had been bound together, but they couldn't tell whether in the front or back... so I take it from that, that all 4 wrists had markings.

"A key finding discovered in Chiasson’s autopsy were marks on both Barry and Honey Sherman’s wrists, an indication that each person’s wrists were bound together at some point, likely with rope or a plastic strap. An examination of the markings does not clearly determine if the hands were bound in front or behind. Their hands were not bound when the bodies were discovered."
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star

"Their wrists showed evidence that they had been, at one point, bound together. No rope or other materials that could have been used to tie their wrists were discovered, the source told CBC Toronto."
Private investigators believe Toronto billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, source says | CBC News

 

[andreww]

MSM reported that each person's wrists had been bound together, but they couldn't tell whether in the front or back... so I take it from that, that all 4 wrists had markings.

"A key finding discovered in Chiasson’s autopsy were marks on both Barry and Honey Sherman’s wrists, an indication that each person’s wrists were bound together at some point, likely with rope or a plastic strap. An examination of the markings does not clearly determine if the hands were bound in front or behind. Their hands were not bound when the bodies were discovered."
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star

"Their wrists showed evidence that they had been, at one point, bound together. No rope or other materials that could have been used to tie their wrists were discovered, the source told CBC Toronto."
Private investigators believe Toronto billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, source says | CBC News

Let's be clear that the opinions stated were from Dr Chiasson, someone who never actually examined the markings on the wrists.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Let's be clear that the opinions stated were from Dr Chiasson, someone who never actually examined the markings on the wrists.

According to the Star’s ‘sources’, Dr. Chiasson saw photographs of the site and Dr. Michael Pickup, present at the first autopsy, was there during Dr. Chiasson’s conduction of the second autopsy.

As Chiasson began the first autopsy, Dr. Michael Pickup entered the autopsy suite. With him, he brought a series of photographs taken at the death scene by Toronto police forensic identification officers, and also detailed photos of the bodies taken prior to the first autopsies that Pickup had performed.

The photos showed markings made by some type of rope or plastic tie that had encircled both Barry and Honey’s wrists and damaged the skin. The deduction Chiasson and the private detectives made was that their wrists had been bound prior to death. From the photos they could not determine if the hands were bound in front, or behind their backs. As to the biopsy that would determine the age of the skin abrasions on the wrists, the Star could not get answers. The photographs indicated they were recent abrasions, sources said.]
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

 

[andreww]

According to the Star’s ‘sources’, Dr. Chiasson saw photographs of the site and Dr. Michael Pickup, present at the first autopsy, was there during Dr. Chiasson’s conduction of the second autopsy.

So Pickup didn't make any determination about the nature of the wrist injuries, he removed the skin and sent it for analysis. But after sitting in with Chiasson and looking at photos only, he was able to come to that conclusion.

Again, I don't refute the fact that the marks are there, but every stage of this investigation just seems so shady.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Too funny.... or too incapable of doing the job??

What is the story on this?

After the police handed the house back to the family, a news cameraman found what looks to be an earring on the driveway. It looked similar in style to what HS would have worn.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

So Pickup didn't make any determination about the nature of the wrist injuries, he removed the skin and sent it for analysis. But after sitting in with Chiasson and looking at photos only, he was able to come to that conclusion.

Again, I don't refute the fact that the marks are there, but every stage of this investigation just seems so shady.

Sources say Pickup saw indications that it might be a case of double murder. However, Pickup did not make that ruling. Neither Pickup or his boss, chief forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Pollanen, would discuss the case with the Star, citing provincial privacy rules.

Toronto Police will only say that until late January, they considered all options, including murder suicide, double suicide and double murder. Police will not shed light on the conversations between Dr. Pickup and the Toronto Police investigators in the autopsy room regarding the first autopsies.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.the...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

ETA: According to the above, Greenspan’s team may be the ‘source’: the Coroner’s office declined to speak to the Star, so the story is one-sided.

 

[WINDSOR]

andreww said "Very simply actually. Barry is wanting to stage this as a murder"

Given the understanding that Barry was an independent thinker and did not always follow 'conventions' why do you believe that after killing Honey and planning to kill himself, he would then say to himself
"I have to make it look like a double murder, so people will not think I am an 'a--hole' and the family name will not be besmirched." Honey cared about appearances, but not Barry.

Barry going to all that trouble to try and impress or deceive anybody/somebody does not make sense to me.

 

[MistyWaters]

So Pickup didn't make any determination about the nature of the wrist injuries, he removed the skin and sent it for analysis. But after sitting in with Chiasson and looking at photos only, he was able to come to that conclusion.

Again, I don't refute the fact that the marks are there, but every stage of this investigation just seems so shady.

In Canada, a Coroner never makes a public statement announcing autopsy findings. Neither is there a law that requires LE to release death determinations the minute it is known. But given LEs statement that thousands of hours of investigation had already occurred prior prior to their press conference, it’s obvious the Homicide Team had already been investigating a double murder. If it benefits an investigation to not disclose information to the public, that of course takes precidence to the public’s right to know. LE is focused on crime solving as opposed to a mandate of informing the public about details involving their criminal investigations The contents of the autopsy and date it was officially signed off is never released during an investigation, nothing shady about that whatsoever.

In the quote below, BBM, because we don’t know who was the anonymous “source” of the info it’s possible that person did not have access to confidential autopsy files and the manner of death was being intentionally withheld to benefit the investigation. During those first few weeks, obviously the murderer/s would be unlikely to insist a homicide occurred in the optimistic hope of a potential m/s (case-closed) ruling.

“Pickup has been qualified as a forensic pathologist since September 2010, according to the College of Physicians and Surgeons.

In performing the autopsies, Pickup examined photos of the scene taken by police, showing how the bodies were positioned, and conducted a forensic examination of both bodies, taking skin biopsies from various areas to be tested to see if injuries were old or recent.

Sources say Pickup saw indications that it might be a case of double murder. However, Pickup did not make that ruling. Neither Pickup or his boss, chief forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Pollanen, would discuss the case with the Star, citing provincial privacy rules.

Toronto Police will only say that until late January, they considered all options, including murder suicide, double suicide and double murder. Police will not shed light on the conversations between Dr. Pickup and the Toronto Police investigators in the autopsy room regarding the first autopsies....”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

 

[deugirtni]

Let's be clear that the opinions stated were from Dr Chiasson, someone who never actually examined the markings on the wrists.

It's not like we're talking about some MD out of the 'yellow pages' or found on the internet. Dr. Chiasson was previously in the position of Dr. Pickup's boss, I'm not sure for how many years. I'm not sure on his age, or his employment status at the moment, but his many years of experience in the field seems to have qualified him to testify in court numerous times as an expert, help convict killers, etc., and it's not like this knowledge and experience suddenly disappears just because he isn't employed by the Coroner's Office any more.
Dr. Pickup removed the wrist skin to preserve it for a reason, as well as having photos of both the wrists and the crimescene. I believe Dr. Chiasson examined the markings and the photos, although the evidence was no longer physically attached to the bodies. We actually don't know what Dr. Pickup's or his boss's thoughts were, since they have not spoken to media. We also don't know what police were thinking, aside from what their thoughts were during first glance before autopsies were performed, and 6 weeks later when they stated their determination of double homicide.