Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[MistyWaters]

The article describes the scene as it was discovered by the real estate agent or housekeeper, IMO. When asked by the journalist, they would have no idea about TOD. The police likely have a time range, but police aren't talking to jounalists.

So often the media are making bricks without straw, I think we have to remember that.

I totally agree, as LE has tightly sealed their investigation shut from the public, the media has no direct source for investigative information.

Presently a double homicide trial for Edward Downey trial is happening in Calgary. According to prosecution opening statements and evidence heard so far, the nature of relationship between the accused and the victim is entirely different than what was first published by the media. It astounds me how we sometimes come to believe what we read in the media is the gospel truth, only to later learn it’s not at all. That goes for almost every homicide case I’ve ever followed over the years.....the trial always yields surprising information never known by the media.

Another example is the trial of Douglas Garland. I was ready to accept the fact he was charged only because he drove an old green truck. Then during the trial we hear from that one detective who spent weeks dedicated to sifting through a huge pile of ashes in the burn pit, looking for tiny bone or tooth fragments. The depth and intensity of that entire investigation was just amazing, lightyears beyond what was ever leaked to the media.

 

[Satchie]

I totally agree, as LE has tightly sealed their investigation shut from the public, the media has no direct source for investigative information.

Presently a double homicide trial for Edward Downey trial is happening in Calgary. According to prosecution opening statements and evidence heard so far, the nature of relationship between the accused and the victim is entirely different than what was first published by the media. It astounds me how we sometimes come to believe what we read in the media is the gospel truth, only to later learn it’s not at all. That goes for almost every homicide case I’ve ever followed over the years.....the trial always yields surprising information never known by the media.

Another example is the trial of Douglas Garland. I was ready to accept the fact he was charged only because he drove an old green truck. Then during the trial we hear from that one detective who spent weeks dedicated to sifting through a huge pile of ashes in the burn pit, looking for tiny bone or tooth fragments. The depth and intensity of that entire investigation was just amazing, lightyears beyond what was ever leaked to the media.

Totally agree. What I object to is they are never transparent about what they don't know. They maintain this illusion of being omniscient, and people believe it. The media often distrust what others say, but don't hold themselves to the same standard.

 

[ldlager]

Perhaps there was no staging at all. Maybe they were secured by the belts to the railing and jackets were pulled down to restrain their arms, all while still alive. Maybe they had to endure questioning or the killers ranting while in that position. Then they were strangled with a ligature while in that position- either from the front, or the back if there was room between the railing and the pool. No possibility to fight back or struggle. This would preclude having to hoist them onto the railing after death, which would surely have required some significant strength on the killers part. All just speculation, but maybe it’s the simplest explanation for how they were found.

 

[andreww]

All I am saying is, I believe police took the time and resources to thoroughly investigate the death of the Shermans, and their final ruling of double murder is based on that extra-thorough investigation.

True, they did spend a lot of time investigating at that house. What exactly does that tell you? It could mean that there was just so much evidence, that it took a long time to process it all (think Adam Strong), or it could mean that they found absolutely nothing and were desperate to find something, anything.

At the end of the day its more than likely that we will never know the answer to that question because TPS will never speak about it unless there is a trial.

 

[MistyWaters]

True, they did spend a lot of time investigating at that house. What exactly does that tell you? It could mean that there was just so much evidence, that it took a long time to process it all (think Adam Strong), or it could mean that they found absolutely nothing and were desperate to find something, anything.

At the end of the day its more than likely that we will never know the answer to that question because TPS will never speak about it unless there is a trial.

The TPS announcement that they were investigating a targeted double homicide came the day after the residence was released. If LE had discovered absolutely nothing in support of the Coroner/ Pathologist’s findings of homicide or evidence to the contrary for that matter, then there’s no reason the manner of death for both wouldn’t have been concluded to be Undetermined. Maybe that’s what the killer/s anticipated would occur? In Canada that option is very standard and routine, if evidence of either suicide or homicide (or accidental death) is ambiguous.

Undermined death rulings are subject to change if/when new evidence comes to light but an active homicide investigation isn’t initiated, as happened in this case.

Just curious, would you be disappointed if an announcement of an arrest was made?

 

[dotr]

Did the killer know when the housekeeper would be in the house, perhaps even anticipating and enjoying the idea of the house ( inadvertently) getting cleaned of potential evidence after the murders?
imo, speculation.

 

[MistyWaters]

Did the killer know when the housekeeper would be in the house, perhaps even anticipating and enjoying the idea of the house ( inadvertently) getting cleaned of potential evidence after the murders?
imo, speculation.

There’s still an unsolved double homicide case in Calgary from 2014, the Carlsons, where at first it was suspected the couple died naturally by carbon monoxide poisoning because they were found in bed and the house was stone cold (winter time) as the gas furnace wasn’t on. As a result emergency response and gas company employees apparently tromped through the house in fear of a gas explosion, totally unaware it was a crime scene with the risk of contaminating evidence. Because later it was determined the couple had been intentionally poisoned by another substance, the furnace had been turned off for the purpose of misdirecting the investigation, and the deaths were ruled a double homicide.

In the Sherman case we don’t know if LE initially considered the deaths to be m/s or if that was intentionally leaked to the media to put the killer/s at ease, thinking they’d gotten away with murder.

But sure, I think it’s highly possible it was anticipated the housekeeper might unknowingly destroy evidence.... and maybe even early emergency responders as well.

 

[andreww]

Just curious, would you be disappointed if an announcement of an arrest was made?

Of course I wouldn't be disappointed. I would be extremely surprised if that ever happened though. Extremely surprised.

 

[andreww]

Did the killer know when the housekeeper would be in the house, perhaps even anticipating and enjoying the idea of the house ( inadvertently) getting cleaned of potential evidence after the murders?
imo, speculation.

The killer knew exactly when the housekeeper would be in the house. He hired her

 

[MistyWaters]

Of course I wouldn't be disappointed. I would be extremely surprised if that ever happened though. Extremely surprised.

Okay, thank you.

 

[deugirtni]

The TPS announcement that they were investigating a targeted double homicide came the day after the residence was released.

Just wanted to clarify a couple of things in the quoted post.

I think the residence was released on the Friday, (January 26th), the same day the press conference was held.
"At the Sherman home on Old Colony Rd. in North York on Friday morning, the scene appeared to be virtually the same from when the investigation began in mid-December. ...

That changed at 11 a.m. when officers began removing the police tape that had stretched around the property since Dec. 15. Shortly after, at 11:06 a.m., a police car that had been parked in the front of the house left the scene.

Former Toronto police Det. Martin Woodhouse, part of Klatt Investigations, hired by the Sherman family, arrived at the home. Woodhouse pulled his car into the driveway and took out a small video camera, appearing to film the outside of the house.

Woodhouse spoke with private security, who arrived around the time police left.

The private security then put up their own caution tape around the property, replacing the police tape that the officers just removed."
Double homicide investigation: Barry and Honey Sherman 'targeted', police confirm

Also, in Gomes' press conference on January 26th, she said: "This morning we returned the residence to the family."

If LE had discovered absolutely nothing in support of the Coroner/ Pathologist’s findings of homicide or evidence to the contrary for that matter, then there’s no reason the manner of death for both wouldn’t have been concluded to be Undetermined.

In Gomes' press conference on January 26th, she stated that the manner of death findings had indeed been undetermined. I have read nothing before or since, to disagree with that, or to indicate that the coroner/pathologist/ME had ruled this as either a homicide or a suicide. It seems however, that based on the evidence obtained during the initial six weeks of investigation, police had deemed it to be a double homicide investigation.
"Post mortem examinations were conducted at the province's coroner's office, forensic pathology unit, by a forensic pathologist.

The cause of death for both Shermans was ligature neck compression. The manner was undetermined, with the only presented options being double suicide, homicide suicide, or double homicide.
....
We believe now, through the six weeks of work, review, we have sufficient evidence to describe this as a double homicide investigation. And that both Honey and Barry Sherman were in fact targeted."

 

[MistyWaters]

Just wanted to clarify a couple of things in the quoted post.

I think the residence was released on the Friday, (January 26th), the same day the press conference was held.
"At the Sherman home on Old Colony Rd. in North York on Friday morning, the scene appeared to be virtually the same from when the investigation began in mid-December. ...

That changed at 11 a.m. when officers began removing the police tape that had stretched around the property since Dec. 15. Shortly after, at 11:06 a.m., a police car that had been parked in the front of the house left the scene.

Former Toronto police Det. Martin Woodhouse, part of Klatt Investigations, hired by the Sherman family, arrived at the home. Woodhouse pulled his car into the driveway and took out a small video camera, appearing to film the outside of the house.

Woodhouse spoke with private security, who arrived around the time police left.

The private security then put up their own caution tape around the property, replacing the police tape that the officers just removed."
Double homicide investigation: Barry and Honey Sherman 'targeted', police confirm

Also, in Gomes' press conference on January 26th, she said: "This morning we returned the residence to the family."

In Gomes' press conference on January 26th, she stated that the manner of death findings had indeed been undetermined. I have read nothing before or since, to disagree with that, or to indicate that the coroner/pathologist/ME had ruled this as either a homicide or a suicide. It seems however, that based on the evidence obtained during the initial six weeks of investigation, police had deemed it to be a double homicide investigation.
"Post mortem examinations were conducted at the province's coroner's office, forensic pathology unit, by a forensic pathologist.

The cause of death for both Shermans was ligature neck compression. The manner was undetermined, with the only presented options being double suicide, homicide suicide, or double homicide.
....
We believe now, through the six weeks of work, review, we have sufficient evidence to describe this as a double homicide investigation. And that both Honey and Barry Sherman were in fact targeted."

Thank you for your clarification! Do you think there was a definite significance in LE releasing the home earlier in the morning of the same day as the press conference? (say, as opposed to my incorrect belief it occurred the day before)

 

[deugirtni]

Did the killer know when the housekeeper would be in the house, perhaps even anticipating and enjoying the idea of the house ( inadvertently) getting cleaned of potential evidence after the murders?
imo, speculation.

You raise an interesting point. Some have speculated for some reason, that Barry killed Honey upstairs somewhere, and then relied on gravity (going down the stairs) to assist his elderly body with the gruesome task of dragging her dead weight to the basement pool area.
But yet both the gardener and housekeeper were inside the home a day and a half later, but didn't notice any blood smears, drag marks, footprints through blood, drops of blood, or anything else that suggested a concerned phonecall should be made to either Barry's office, 911, Honey's cellphone, the real estate agent, etc. The housekeeper didn't notice even though she is the one tasked with keeping the home clean. And especially since Honey's Lexus was parked right out front in the driveway (as opposed to underground in the garage), she could very well have been inside the home, in medical distress. Yet nothing.
I think that right there throws out the theory of Barry, using the help of gravity to assist dragging the dead, bleeding body of his wife whom he just murdered, through the home and down into the basement. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

Thank you for your clarification! Do you think there was a definite significance in LE releasing the home earlier in the morning of the same day as the press conference? (say, as opposed to my incorrect belief it occurred the day before)

I think TPS had it planned that they would release the home just prior to the press conference, so that TPS could have that spotlight of media attention prior to the private team having the opportunity to go to the media first (with whatever), after gaining access. Their strategy, for whatever motives they may have had. imo.

 

[casesensitive]

I think TPS had it planned that they would release the home just prior to the press conference, so that TPS could have that spotlight of media attention prior to the private team having the opportunity to go to the media first (with whatever), after gaining access. Their strategy, for whatever motives they may have had. imo.

I totally agree with this deugirtni. The private investigation had announced their evidence for double murder on January 20th. LE hadn't spoken to the privately hired Dr. Chiasson for a month after his autopsies, and for what ever reason they weren't going to give him any credit for his findings of double murder in their press release. But Gomes did give credit to their various forensic partners in helping in the investigation. So does that mean they agreed with Chiasson? Yes it does. It's no surprise that the TPS resented the private investigation team. Pissing match from the start.

 

[deugirtni]

TPS may also not have wanted the PI team to be present at the press conference, to intimidate, or ask any questions, make any statements, be asked for their points of view, etc? Releasing the home just prior was surely a good way to give them something better to do?

 

[casesensitive]

I'm pretty sure that TPS did not invite or want the PI team to their press conference.

 

[MistyWaters]

I totally agree with this deugirtni. The private investigation had announced their evidence for double murder on January 20th. LE hadn't spoken to the privately hired Dr. Chiasson for a month after his autopsies, and for what ever reason they weren't going to give him any credit for his findings of double murder in their press release. But Gomes did give credit to their various forensic partners in helping in the investigation. So does that mean they agreed with Chiasson? Yes it does. It's no surprise that the TPS resented the private investigation team. Pissing match from the start.

It’s been mentioned quite often on these threads but I’ve never quite understood why it’s significant at what point LE spoke to Dr C about his autopsy. Because TPS (or any police service in Canada) is not responsible for determining cause or manner of death, wouldn’t it be more likely Dr C communicated directly with the Ontario Provincial Coroner and respective Pathologists if there was any contentious issues involving the two sets of autopsies?

 

[MistyWaters]

In Gomes' press conference on January 26th, she stated that the manner of death findings had indeed been undetermined. I have read nothing before or since, to disagree with that, or to indicate that the coroner/pathologist/ME had ruled this as either a homicide or a suicide. It seems however, that based on the evidence obtained during the initial six weeks of investigation, police had deemed it to be a double homicide investigation.
"Post mortem examinations were conducted at the province's coroner's office, forensic pathology unit, by a forensic pathologist.

The cause of death for both Shermans was ligature neck compression. The manner was undetermined, with the only presented options being double suicide, homicide suicide, or double homicide.
....
We believe now, through the six weeks of work, review, we have sufficient evidence to describe this as a double homicide investigation. And that both Honey and Barry Sherman were in fact targeted."

My apologies, I just noticed your sentence above and you have me really confused.

What are you seeing that leads you to believe the Sherman deaths were not deemed to have been a result of double homicide??? The media has been filled with news reports about the double homicide ever since January. The Judge ordered both the estate and the homicide files sealed from the press.

Gomes did not state the manner of death couldn’t be determined after the 3 possibilities were considered (double suicide, m/s or double homicide) and the obvious reason TPS is pursuing a double homicide investigation is because the Sherman deaths were ruled to have been a result of a double homicide. I’m not sure what she could say to describe it any differently. I’ve listened to her entire press conference more than once and I thought her statements made it very clear.

 

[casesensitive]

It’s been mentioned quite often on these threads but I’ve never quite understood why it’s significant at what point LE spoke to Dr C about his autopsy. Because TPS (or any police service in Canada) is not responsible for determining cause or manner of death, wouldn’t it be more likely Dr C communicated directly with the Ontario Provincial Coroner and respective Pathologists if there was any contentious issues involving the two sets of autopsies?

TPS were in attendance for the first autopsies, which is usual. Their pathologist attended Dr. C's autopsies. In a murder investigation it is significant to find out the results of the second series of autopsies as soon as possible.