Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[dotr]

Related? Not long ago or far away.. speculation, imo.
The Bridle Path mansion, the missing millions, and the investigation that blew open a massive mortgage scam
"Paradise Lost
Seven High Point Road in the Bridle Path was supposed to be the ultimate symbol of achievement for the couple that bought it. Today, it’s the grandest remnant of an alleged real estate scam that left a trail of victims, $17 million unaccounted for and one young lawyer in hiding"

By Nicholas Köhler | Photograph by Daniel Neuhaus | November 1, 2018

 

[andreww]

The Coroner may consult with police, but they are the one who signs the document that records the official cause and manner of death. These things are definitely not done verbally, there are official records.

Okay, I can buy that. The cause and manner of death is something the coroner should be able to decide conclusively, but as to whether the injuries are self inflicted or caused by another party is a different story.

 

[andreww]

How are police involved?
Police are usually among the first responders at a death scene. Coroners may request police assistance with investigations.

So in a case like this, when the coroner was listing this case as undetermined, it is completely possible that LE's opinion is what decided this to be a double murder?

 

[andreww]

Question. If TPS had announced this as a murder suicide, what do you all think would have happened?

 

[dotr]

Question. If TPS had announced this as a murder suicide, what do you all think would have happened?

What i would think if it was determined to be m/s, would probably be contrary to what others might think...
The interview posted recently where HS speaks about '' pulling down your jacket" ect
as she adjusts BS's clothing ect. comes to mind. Many saw it as loving - others might think that BS was treated less like a big company man and more like mamma's little boy, or a trained doggie fetching sticks (money) for its mistress.
One might think that the open house, apparently with few or no security measures taken ect. was a preemptive move..
Or that someone with an unusually high IQ might think or have very different responses and triggers than the average person.
Some, at the zenith of a career might feel empty or that they have completed a mission, instead of feeling jubilant to receive one of Canada's highest
honours, instead feels like an imposter or that nothing is left?
Or, BS felt deeply betrayed by HS for some reason or another, or simply could not face one more party.
imo, speculation.

 

[ldlager]

How could a police officer, with no medical training at all, be able to determine it? Police are trained to recognize signs of “suspicious deaths”. They are trained to preserve and protect the scene until forensic experts arrive on site.

Lets not forget that they didn't "preserve and protect the scene", at least to the extent that an Apotex employee was evidently able to enter the home unescorted during the forensic investigation. I also recall seeing photos of the funeral home staff wheeling out the bodies without wearing protective footwear. There may be other instances also.

 

[MistyWaters]

So in a case like this, when the coroner was listing this case as undetermined, it is completely possible that LE's opinion is what decided this to be a double murder?

The manner of death was Undetermined only for the first six weeks. On Jan 26th the press conference was held by LE to announce the findings of the investigation (involving their partners as well) that revealed the Manner of Death to be a targeted double homicide. That’s also why TPS are now investigating who is responsible for committing the double homicide.

If you don’t believe me, you could always contact the TPS Homicide Unit and ask them?

 

[MistyWaters]

Lets not forget that they didn't "preserve and protect the scene", at least to the extent that an Apotex employee was evidently able to enter the home unescorted during the forensic investigation. I also recall seeing photos of the funeral home staff wheeling out the bodies without wearing protective footwear. There may be other instances also.

Typically certain portions of the premises will be strategically cleared as time passes on, then the entire place released when all areas are finished. It’d be unusual if evidence was searched in a 12,000 sq ft place helter skelter like. Search teams use a similar method involving grids.

We don’t know if the scene was contaminated although Greenspan said he believed it was because the area around where the bodies had been found hadn’t been vacuumed. On the other hand if it had been, an entire six weeks later when the PI team arrived, how would they know that?

It’s impossible to draw an accurate conclusion in the absence of information gleaned from all parties involved.

 

[MistyWaters]

The Coroner may consult with police, but they are the one who signs the document that records the official cause and manner of death. These things are definitely not done verbally, there are official records.

That’s right, the legal procedure is well beyond verbal. The official Coroner's report becomes evidence as part of the murder file, authorized for release to LE by court order.

“The final series of judicial authorizations known to the Star were issued by a judge on Feb. 15, 2018. The four production orders were issued by the police in an investigation, that for the first time in the series of court orders, states that “unknown person (s) between December 13th, 2017 and December 15th, 2017” did “murder Bernard Sherman and Honey Sherman.”

Among the information the police sought were “medical records” obtained by a provincial pathologist (likely during one or both of the autopsies); ...”
Sherman investigation initially focused only on Barry’s wife Honey as a murder victim | The Star

 

[MistyWaters]

Question. If TPS had announced this as a murder suicide, what do you all think would have happened?

I would’ve thought this might’ve happened if the autopsy had revealed indications of significant physical violence on both bodies including bruising, blood and scratches. If Barry was scratched by Honey, then the skin scrapings would be found on Honey’s fingernails.

If an outraged 75 year old husband had the intention of murdering a wife by binding her arms in order to strangle her with a ligature, I can’t imagine a scenario where the wife would willingly allow that to occur given at most a smack on the face without attempting to defend herself.

 

[andreww]

I would’ve thought this might’ve happened if the autopsy had revealed indications of significant physical violence on both bodies including bruising, blood and scratches. If Barry was scratched by Honey, then the skin scrapings would be found on Honey’s fingernails.

If an outraged 75 year old husband had the intention of murdering a wife by binding her arms in order to strangle her with a ligature, I can’t imagine a scenario where the wife would willingly allow that to occur given at most a smack on the face without attempting to defend herself.

I think you are purposely avoiding the question. How do you think the Sherman family would have reacted to that decision?

 

[andreww]

I would’ve thought this might’ve happened if the autopsy had revealed indications of significant physical violence on both bodies including bruising, blood and scratches. If Barry was scratched by Honey, then the skin scrapings would be found on Honey’s fingernails.

If an outraged 75 year old husband had the intention of murdering a wife by binding her arms in order to strangle her with a ligature, I can’t imagine a scenario where the wife would willingly allow that to occur given at most a smack on the face without attempting to defend herself.

Let's just say he punched her in the face and knocked her out, then strangled her. Would he have defence wounds then?

 

[ldlager]

Typically certain portions of the premises will be strategically cleared as time passes on, then the entire place released when all areas are finished. It’d be unusual if evidence was searched in a 12,000 sq ft place helter skelter like. Search teams use a similar method involving grids.

We don’t know if the scene was contaminated although Greenspan said he believed it was because the area around where the bodies had been found hadn’t been vacuumed. On the other hand if it had been, an entire six weeks later when the PI team arrived, how would they know that?

It’s impossible to draw an accurate conclusion in the absence of information gleaned from all parties involved.

In fairness, we don't KNOW where "the scene" actually was. Maybe one or both were murdered right inside the door where the apotex employee entered. I recall this unauthorized access happened in the first few days, so it is doubtful that LE would have been able to "clear" that section of the house by then. Given that an employee was able to access the home without being stopped, one has to wonder who else may have gained or obtained access? We have no way of knowing of course, and LE will never tell us. We only know about the employee gaining access from press reports.

As far as Greenspan's comments regarding the lack of vacuuming around the bodies, I suspect that his PI team likely found some kind of material or trace evidence around the bodies that could only have been left by someone prior to the killing; or immediately after the discovery of the killing. For example, maybe hair or fiber samples from first responders. This would confirm that the area had not been vacuumed comprehensively by LE, as Greenspan suggested. JMO

 

[andreww]

That’s right, the legal procedure is well beyond verbal. The official Coroner's report becomes evidence as part of the murder file, authorized for release to LE by court order.

“The final series of judicial authorizations known to the Star were issued by a judge on Feb. 15, 2018. The four production orders were issued by the police in an investigation, that for the first time in the series of court orders, states that “unknown person (s) between December 13th, 2017 and December 15th, 2017” did “murder Bernard Sherman and Honey Sherman.”

Among the information the police sought were “medical records” obtained by a provincial pathologist (likely during one or both of the autopsies); ...”
Sherman investigation initially focused only on Barry’s wife Honey as a murder victim | The Star

You seem to know a lot about this stuff. Do you work in the legal system or are you internet educated? My nephew is a detective with the OPP. He has told me that getting warrants is just a mere formality. For instance, if he believes a person is a pornographer but has no evidence, he can get a warrant to break in to the guys house and take a look around. LE and Judges, despite what you think, are on the same team and it is very rarely that judge will rule against them in an investigation. And when it comes to the press trying to get information, judges will rule against them every single times, possibly throwing them some crumbs to keep them appeased.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think you are purposely avoiding the question. How do you think the Sherman family would have reacted to that decision?

Family members are always interviewed in suspicious death cases but their opinion doesn’t matter if the investigation reveals evidence contrary to their opinion. So how’d they have reacted??? They’d have no choice other to accept the m/s findings unless their PI team was able to prove otherwise.

The question becomes, why would Pathologists who are licensed to perform autopsies under the same governing body disagree? Other than a conspiracy, what’s one other reason?

Because I refuse to believe that Coronors and pathologists opinions can be bought and paid for, regardless who hires their services. These are highly skilled career professionals involved in the forsesic science industry, not a like one time mechanic who might be tempted to write up a false inspection report if enough money is slipped under the table.

 

[MistyWaters]

You seem to know a lot about this stuff. Do you work in the legal system or are you internet educated? My nephew is a detective with the OPP. He has told me that getting warrants is just a mere formality. For instance, if he believes a person is a pornographer but has no evidence, he can get a warrant to break in to the guys house and take a look around. LE and Judges, despite what you think, are on the same team and it is very rarely that judge will rule against them in an investigation. And when it comes to the press trying to get information, judges will rule against them every single times, possibly throwing them some crumbs to keep them appeased.

I’m not a Verified Expert (nor do I intend to become one) therefore I’m not required to prove my opinion. However I’ve shared several media and govt links that were also not written by me, hoping to offer additional insight.

If you choose to believe Canadian homicide investigations are at the whim of any particular police department, asking your nephew about the legal procedure might prove helpful to you.

 

[MistyWaters]

So in a case like this, when the coroner was listing this case as undetermined, it is completely possible that LE's opinion is what decided this to be a double murder?

No. Do you not understand the definition of the word “assistance”?

It’s the opposite of “relinquish” or “abandon”.

 

[MistyWaters]

@ Andreww. What do think is the reason the Judge wrote these “Background Facts” in the legal ruling to seal the estate files? The reason is certainly not because he heard Det Gomes press conference on TV.

SUPERIOR COURT OF JUSTICE – ONTARIO
RE: TORONTO STAR NEWSPAPERS LTD. AND KEVIN DONOVAN, Applicants

AND:

THE ESTATE OF BERNARD SHERMAN AND THE TRUSTEES OF THE ESTATE, Respondents

AND RE: TORONTO STAR NEWSPAPERS LIMITED AND KEVIN DONOVAN, Applicants

AND:

THE ESTATE OF HONEY SHERMAN AND THE TRUSTEES OF THE ESTATE, Respondents

BEFORE: S.F. Dunphy J.

COUNSEL: Kevin Donovan, for the Applicants

Timothy Youdan and Chantelle Spagnola, for the Respondents

HEARD at Toronto: July 31, 2018

<snip>
Background facts
4] On December 15, 2017, Mr. Barry Sherman and Mrs. Honey Sherman were found brutally murdered in their Toronto home. The celebrity and wealth of the victims and the circumstances of their death generated intense publicity. Unfounded rumours swirled and were given a wide audience. On January 26, 2018, Toronto Police Service put an end to many of the rumours when they announced that they were investigating the deaths of both spouses as a targeted double homicide.
CanLII - 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)

 

[Satchie]

Question. If TPS had announced this as a murder suicide, what do you all think would have happened?

I don't think they would have announced it until they had sufficient proof to convince the detectives hired by the family

There was a case in the US, a woman pretended to be kidnapped, phoned her family claiming she was held hostage, was found dead in the trunk of her car.

Fairly quickly, police found CCTV footage that cast doubt on the scenario, but the family were outraged. So police kept the case open, under investigation, for a full year. Finally, when they announced it was suicide, the family made no comment.

I suspect they were able to build an irrefutable case including blood spatter, cctv footage, etc, and then gave the family time to absorb it.

 

[JDG]

Let's just say he punched her in the face and knocked her out, then strangled her. Would he have defence wounds then?

Fair question. And, no.

I also think it's a theoretical question.