Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[JDG]

You seem to know a lot about this stuff. Do you work in the legal system or are you internet educated? My nephew is a detective with the OPP. He has told me that getting warrants is just a mere formality. For instance, if he believes a person is a pornographer but has no evidence, he can get a warrant to break in to the guys house and take a look around. LE and Judges, despite what you think, are on the same team and it is very rarely that judge will rule against them in an investigation. And when it comes to the press trying to get information, judges will rule against them every single times, possibly throwing them some crumbs to keep them appeased.

What makes you say they rule against the media every single time?
They do not always rule against the media. Only when its evidentiary information and there is a reason to keep it under wraps.

Yes, the media would have a field day if they could just spin everything their way but the judges only hold back 'stuff' for trials. They cannot have trials being jeopardized by the media!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

This may be a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway.

Why does the thread title say they were found dead instead of saying.... 'they were found murdered?'

It's just something I think about everytime I come to read the threads on this murdered couple.

Tia

 

[human]

I believe Kerry Winter was going to release some shocking info? When was that?

 

[Satchie]

I believe Kerry Winter was going to release some shocking info? When was that?

I think it was his comments to the Bloomberg reporter, which didn't come out looking the way he intended.

Journalists will appear sympathetic to a source in order to win their trust, and then turn around and make them look bad. I think KW has finally learned to stop saying anything.

 

[Satchie]

This may be a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway.

Why does the thread title say they were found dead instead of saying.... 'they were found murdered?'

It's just something I think about everytime I come to read the threads on this murdered couple.

Tia

You can contact a mod and request the thread title be updated.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

You can contact a mod and request the thread title be updated.

Thanks Satchie.

I never report but I will do as you suggest.

I just think the title is misleading and takes away from how this couple actually died with both being murdered.

Thanks again.

 

[JDG]

I think the title was/is correct.

When the Shermans were found, they were found dead.

For six weeks there was NO determination of how they died.

We've worked along with this thread for nearly a year and perhaps it should be left AS IS so that it does not BECOME misleading. JMO

I find that there are differences between US of A and Canada, perhaps that's why its confusing to you.

May I ask if you are in Canada?

 

[dotr]

This may be a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway.

Why does the thread title say they were found dead instead of saying.... 'they were found murdered?'

It's just something I think about everytime I come to read the threads on this murdered couple.

Tia

When i first started thread #1 for the couple, all that was known is that they were deceased, so that is how i labelled that particular thread.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Question. If TPS had announced this as a murder suicide, what do you all think would have happened?

Do you mean if it were a m/s what took place? (IMHO, I agree with about 80% of your theory. An argument that escalated.)

Or, if it had been announced as a m/s what would the fallout be? (The Estate may have likely sued the TPS, based on Greenspan’s most recent press conference. IMHO, they would not be successful. Our threads here would have stopped shortly after the TPS announcement.)

 

[deugirtni]

The manner of death was Undetermined only for the first six weeks. On Jan 26th the press conference was held by LE to announce the findings of the investigation (involving their partners as well) that revealed the Manner of Death to be a targeted double homicide. That’s also why TPS are now investigating who is responsible for committing the double homicide.

If you don’t believe me, you could always contact the TPS Homicide Unit and ask them?

Do you believe that the death certificates were signed by the coroner after autopsy with manner of death listed as 'undetermined', and then after police spent 6 weeks investigating and saw they had enough evidence to investigate the crime as a double homicide, the coroner then changed the death certificate to say the manner of deaths were homicides? I don't. My bet is that the death certificates continue to say 'undetermined', until such time as it is proven to be known, rather than believed.

Undetermined simply means, imo, that the coroner/ME was not able to ascertain absolutely which manner of death was used to cause the death by 'ligature neck compression'. I believe a coroner would rather state 'undetermined', than to get it wrong, and have egg on their face if they determined suicide or accident and it turned out to be murder, or vice versa, etc. There have been many times when death certificates have been filled out incorrectly and it came to light after the fact.

 

[MistyWaters]

Do you mean if it were a m/s what took place? (IMHO, I agree with about 80% of your theory. An argument that escalated.)

Or, if it had been announced as a m/s what would the fallout be? (The Estate may have likely sued the TPS, based on Greenspan’s most recent press conference. IMHO, they would not be successful. Our threads here would have stopped shortly after the TPS announcement.)

Or if the deaths had been determined to be a result of m/s and the PI team including Dr Chaisson had evidence to contradict that opinion, the family could’ve began by filing a complaint with the Provincial Coronors office, requesting the autopsy and death file be reviewed by a third party, an independent Coronor and Pathologist.

Complaints
Complaints
The Death Investigation Oversight Council (DIOC) administers a public complaints process through its Complaints Committee, which reviews complaints regarding death investigations, specifically, complaints against a coroner or a forensic pathologist working in the Province of Ontario. Families may use the DIOC complaint form to submit their complaint to the DIOC Secretariat.

Who can file a complaint?
Any person may make a complaint to the complaints committee about a coroner, a pathologist or a person, other than a coroner or pathologist, with powers or duties under the Coroners Act.

What types of complaints does the Complaints Committee have the authority to review?
The Complaints Committee is responsible for reviewing complaints regarding a coroner, pathologist or certain other persons referred to under the Coroners Act who have powers or duties for post-mortem examinations. However, pursuant to the Coroners Act, if either the Chief Coroner or Chief Forensic Pathologist have not had an opportunity to respond to your complaint, the matter will be referred to them prior to being reviewed by DIOC.

In addition, if the complaint is about the Chief Coroner or Chief Forensic Pathologist, the Committee will directly review these types of complaints.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Deleted.

 

[MistyWaters]

Do you believe that the death certificates were signed by the coroner after autopsy with manner of death listed as 'undetermined', and then after police spent 6 weeks investigating and saw they had enough evidence to investigate the crime as a double homicide, the coroner then changed the death certificate to say the manner of deaths were homicides? I don't. My bet is that the death certificates continue to say 'undetermined', until such time as it is proven to be known, rather than believed.

Undetermined simply means, imo, that the coroner/ME was not able to ascertain absolutely which manner of death was used to cause the death by 'ligature neck compression'. I believe a coroner would rather state 'undetermined', than to get it wrong, and have egg on their face if they determined suicide or accident and it turned out to be murder, or vice versa, etc. There have been many times when death certificates have been filled out incorrectly and it came to light after the fact.

I think you might be confusing an official manner of death ruled to be Undetermined and accordingly signed off on the completion of the autopsy report with, in the Sherman case, during the first six weeks the manner of death was not yet determined (undetermined) because a conclusion had not yet been reached prior to it being announced at the press conference.

 

[MistyWaters]

Just my opinion, but I think there was a very important reason Gomes said what she did.

I think we all recall initially the media was running rampant with the rumour the Shermans deaths were known to be the result of m/s. I thought she did a good job by clarifying that was never true, insinuating the m/s rumour reported by the media was false because no early conclusion had been determined. And she went on to say the investigation involving LE and their partners considered all three different manners of death prior to reaching the conclusion a targeted double homicide had occurred.

 

[ldlager]

Family members are always interviewed in suspicious death cases but their opinion doesn’t matter if the investigation reveals evidence contrary to their opinion. So how’d they have reacted??? They’d have no choice other to accept the m/s findings unless their PI team was able to prove otherwise.

The question becomes, why would Pathologists who are licensed to perform autopsies under the same governing body disagree? Other than a conspiracy, what’s one other reason?

Because I refuse to believe that Coronors and pathologists opinions can be bought and paid for, regardless who hires their services. These are highly skilled career professionals involved in the forsesic science industry, not a like one time mechanic who might be tempted to write up a false inspection report if enough money is slipped under the table.

Blank

 

[Satchie]

I think the title was/is correct.

When the Shermans were found, they were found dead.

For six weeks there was NO determination of how they died.

We've worked along with this thread for nearly a year and perhaps it should be left AS IS so that it does not BECOME misleading. JMO

I find that there are differences between US of A and Canada, perhaps that's why its confusing to you.

May I ask if you are in Canada?

They can just add 'homicides' to the existing title, like they do when there's an arrest

 

[deugirtni]

I think you might be confusing an official manner of death ruled to be Undetermined and accordingly signed off on the completion of the autopsy report with, in the Sherman case, during the first six weeks the manner of death was not yet determined (undetermined) because a conclusion had not yet been reached prior to it being announced at the press conference.

Yes I am talking about the official determination of manner of death that is provided by the coroner/ME which also appears on the death certificate. I believe you are also talking about this, because you have often said that only the coroner can make that determination, etc.

 

[Satchie]

Do you believe that the death certificates were signed by the coroner after autopsy with manner of death listed as 'undetermined', and then after police spent 6 weeks investigating and saw they had enough evidence to investigate the crime as a double homicide, the coroner then changed the death certificate to say the manner of deaths were homicides? I don't. My bet is that the death certificates continue to say 'undetermined', until such time as it is proven to be known, rather than believed.

Undetermined simply means, imo, that the coroner/ME was not able to ascertain absolutely which manner of death was used to cause the death by 'ligature neck compression'. I believe a coroner would rather state 'undetermined', than to get it wrong, and have egg on their face if they determined suicide or accident and it turned out to be murder, or vice versa, etc. There have been many times when death certificates have been filled out incorrectly and it came to light after the fact.

As I recall from my many years of intensive study of British murder mysteries, the Coroner is the official that used to hold British inquests (as I recall from my less rigorous study of Da Vinci's Inquest, they still do for some confusing types of death, but mostly now the coroner can just decide themselves). Anyway, in those shows you'd always have the inquest jury return a verdict of "murder by person or persons unknown", and then the murder investigation would begin.

 

[deugirtni]

Question. If TPS had announced this as a murder suicide, what do you all think would have happened?

I think that if they had announced it as M/S, they would have been able to prove it with evidence, and they would have provided that information to the family and its team of private investigators before they announced it publicly.

Then, it's my thought that publicly at least, there wouldn't have been much said, as it would have been an intensely personal issue with a lot of emotions for the family to deal with. I suspect the media would have left the family alone, and not much would have been said (except on here, where sleuthers may have perhaps discussed all the possibilities as to why B might have suddenly erupted to do such an uncharacteristic thing).

The family only ever asked for TPS to do a comprehensive investigation before mouthing off their initial suspicions to the media. I really don't think that was too much to ask, imho,...... do you?

 

[MistyWaters]

As I recall from my many years of intensive study of British murder mysteries, the Coroner is the official that used to hold British inquests (as I recall from my less rigorous study of Da Vinci's Inquest, they still do for some confusing types of death, but mostly now the coroner can just decide themselves). Anyway, in those shows you'd always have the inquest jury return a verdict of "murder by person or persons unknown", and then the murder investigation would begin.

Oh yes, those great old stories of British inquests. Although I will admit it always reminded me more of the US and the Grand Jury than our Canadian justice system.

But our legal system is indeed modelled from the British and Coronors do hold inquests, for the reason of public interest. Their primary function is for a Jury to make recommendations in order to prevent future deaths. However the recommendations are not binding, nor is blame determined.
Inquests | Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services