CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #23

[Cedars]

I am so confused, this is the first I have read they were suffering from medical trauma.

I cannot find anything that does not state this a condition like PTSD.

deffinition of medical trauma - Google Search

What is medical trauma?​

Medical trauma is the experience of traumatic stress as a result of interactions with the medical system, which may include procedures (i.e., surgeries), new diagnoses (i.e., cancer), and professionals in healthcare settings. These healthcare settings may include primary care clinics, general hospitals, and specialty medical clinics, among others.

https://connect.springerpub.com/content/book/978-0-8261-2894-2/part/part01/chapter/ch01

I think whoever wrote "medical trauma" meant physical trauma.

JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

As far as I remember, after they were found, pretty soon medical reports of both HS and BS were requested by LE. THAT I found very astonishing and wondered, why this would be necessary.

Maybe, because of an at the time suspected suicide of one or both Shermans it would have been helpful.

The "medical trauma", which was attested by the pathologist, could possibly have happened at a time before the suicide/murder or directly before/during the final suicide/murder through threats and treatment. We won't know, I think.

 

[newclues]

Yes tied up Wed night. Died Wed night possible perp or accomplice return on Thursday to clean up any evidence and maybe stage the scene with the items found on floor.

Agree the autopsy should tell this information and they believe 36 hours, interesting that they do not say HS was 37 hours, if she was killed as soon as she arrived home, BS arrives about an hour later. And that is if the poolroom humidity did not alter decomposing times. I am not sure we have been told all of the details of their autopsies about other facts like lividity, blood settling, moved after death etc.

We heard suggestions about Honey being dragged and her injuries in the early days, much less intel about how BS ended up in the pool room.

Yes the ex chief of Toronto police held a press conference and said he knew who he was and they spoke to him already no issues with LE. To me that translates, LE are doing their job, move on, end of story. Why not at least tell the public something, he was expected, a friend, a maintenance person, why say nothing.

When someone needs to tell me how smart they are or won’t give any facts to back up a statement as fact and just says trust me, I get uneasy.

Given the fact that both of their cars (BS's and HS's) were there parked at the side of the house and in the underground garage and that the house alarm was off and HS's phone was on the floor of the mainfloor powder room and some of BS's stuff was in the basement hallway off the garage door, if the Thursday visitor was someone who knew them, wouldn't they have looked for them since these signs would have suggested that they were home, especially if that person was able to enter their house from the front door using a key and wouldn't they have noticed the lock somewhat off as was later found?

 

[fadedglitter]

They mean physical trauma that would have required medical intervention if the victims had been found alive. 0% chance they meant “medical trauma” in the psychological therapeutic sense.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Given the fact that both of their cars (BS's and HS's) were there parked at the side of the house and in the underground garage and that the house alarm was off and HS's phone was on the floor of the mainfloor powder room and some of BS's stuff was in the basement hallway off the garage door, if the Thursday visitor was someone who knew them, wouldn't they have looked for them since these signs would have suggested that they were home, especially if that person was able to enter their house from the front door using a key and wouldn't they have noticed the lock somewhat off as was later found?

These are such good points. Proof he wasn’t familiar enough to go completely through the home to find them. But somehow felt obligated or concerned enough to spend over an hour there.

(This is also why I don’t understand the housekeeper on Friday. She seemed to dismiss every clue that Honey was in the house. My thought would have been to look for her. Honey was 70 with severe arthritis and other health issues…realtors and clients showed up.)

 

[Sphinx]

Given the fact that both of their cars (BS's and HS's) were there parked at the side of the house and in the underground garage and that the house alarm was off and HS's phone was on the floor of the mainfloor powder room and some of BS's stuff was in the basement hallway off the garage door, if the Thursday visitor was someone who knew them, wouldn't they have looked for them since these signs would have suggested that they were home, especially if that person was able to enter their house from the front door using a key and wouldn't they have noticed the lock somewhat off as was later found?

All of this is important, but I suspect the person who came on Thurs, entered and left several times, returning to his car, was perhaps a real estate agent who was using his laptop, or notepad to take pictures of the interior, and show them to clients, maybe in real time. There would likely be questions, and he would return to different areas to film it, and show itto potential clients, who could have even been in another country. Perhaps he had no reason to show more pictures of the pool room, that was already on the listing. TPS did say that they knew who he was, and what he was doing there, after investigating. IMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

All of this is important, but I suspect the person who came on Thurs, entered and left several times, returning to his car, was perhaps a real estate agent who was using his laptop, or notepad to take pictures of the interior, and show them to clients, maybe in real time. There would likely be questions, and he would return to different areas to film it, and show itto potential clients, who could have even been in another country. Perhaps he had no reason to show more pictures of the pool room, that was already on the listing. TPS did say that they knew who he was, and what he was doing there, after investigating. IMO

That’s possible. The home sale was unorthodox in many ways. He may be connected and went in and did exactly as you said.

The issue with it being a realtor is that Greenspan and the family had no idea who it was. They cooperated with KD to find out. He’d have to book it through Stern’s office and get the lockbox code. Realtors have strict rules.

(According to my last home sale. The client’s realtor showed up unannounced with the purchaser. She parked right behind my car as I was leaving, blocking me in. I was too polite and let them in. When my realtor found out, he hit the roof and the other realtor got into trouble. No appointment, no codes, no keys, I had a dog loose in the home..the realtor broke the rules and took advantage of me being a softy.)

But maybe that’s why the Sherman side didn’t know who it was if it was a realtor—he broke some major rules, and walked right into the scene of a double-homicide. The police may have asked him to stay silent about it as he made himself a witness.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

As far as I remember, after they were found, pretty soon medical reports of both HS and BS were requested by LE. THAT I found very astonishing and wondered, why this would be necessary.

Maybe, because of an at the time suspected suicide of one or both Shermans it would have been helpful.

The "medical trauma", which was attested by the pathologist, could possibly have happened at a time before the suicide/murder or directly before/during the final suicide/murder through threats and treatment. We won't know, I think.

In Canada, if you have a history of Ill health, show no signs of injuries and thus reasonable expectation of natural death no autopsy, or a doctor is present during death an autopsy may not be required. But if any sign of homicide etc. a autopsy is by law required.

Families can ask for autopsy if the coroner’s office did not.

Death investigations

Learn about death investigations and how the process helps improve public safety and prevent future deaths.

www.ontario.ca

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

All of this is important, but I suspect the person who came on Thurs, entered and left several times, returning to his car, was perhaps a real estate agent who was using his laptop, or notepad to take pictures of the interior, and show them to clients, maybe in real time. There would likely be questions, and he would return to different areas to film it, and show itto potential clients, who could have even been in another country. Perhaps he had no reason to show more pictures of the pool room, that was already on the listing. TPS did say that they knew who he was, and what he was doing there, after investigating. IMO

I like the idea of another realtor, or maybe another home inspector.
Still curious why park on street and not in the driveway? Maintenance guy and company policy is not to park in customer driveway? Leaks oil and did not want to harm the stone driveway?

Come to think of it, I Do not think the person was overly concerned about being seen going to and from his car? Unless the camera that catches him is camouflaged to his view. We do not know if they had anything in their hands going to and fro?

 

[newclues]

These are such good points. Proof he wasn’t familiar enough to go completely through the home to find them. But somehow felt obligated or concerned enough to spend over an hour there.

(This is also why I don’t understand the housekeeper on Friday. She seemed to dismiss every clue that Honey was in the house. My thought would have been to look for her. Honey was 70 with severe arthritis and other health issues…realtors and clients showed up.)

Also, the unexpected accumulation of newspapers and mail would be a sign that there was something wrong.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

People have suggested the Thursday visitor was a realtor. My first bet was a concerned neighbour, but rogue realtor breaking some rules seems to fit.

There are issues no matter who you guess it was. No one has mentioned a relative. Honey and Mary have a cousin in construction (JC). He worked on some of Mary’s real estate, and was involved in her Montreal lawsuit.

He was one of the first people Mary called on Friday after the bodies were discovered. He called 911 and told them he would go to 50 Old Colony, he was minutes away. But we haven’t heard more of him, except for him being mentioned in the affidavits.

I’m not saying it was him, just using him as an example.

ETA: My previous post on JC, including screenshot of affidavit about him: CANADA - Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #21

More information: CANADA - Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #21

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Also, the unexpected accumulation of newspapers and mail would be a sign that there was something wrong.

I could write a comprehensive list of the dozens of clues she missed, but it would be unfairly targeting her on my part. No hint from anyone she did anything wrong.

I’m just baffled. I tried putting myself in her place and I still don’t understand. But we haven’t heard her side. She must have good reasons to have overlooked every red flag.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

I could write a comprehensive list of the dozens of clues she missed, but it would be unfairly targeting her on my part. No hint from anyone she did anything wrong.

I’m just baffled. I tried putting myself in her place and I still don’t understand. But we haven’t heard her side. She must have good reasons to have overlooked every red flag.

I wondered who was she to report anything to, did she have emergency contacts? Did she deal directly with HS for work or through her assistant? The assistant was off duty, just not sure she would know who to say anything to. As the oddities piled up I assume she was becoming more concerned and said as much to the plant lady. No blood or broken items to show any fights so no reason to call police at that point.

The trainer who IMO would have a more intimate relationship with both B & H and known in their timing and habits would be more concerned but she left, did she try calling HS or the assistant to ask where they may be? She most likely had other clients to see.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I wondered who was she to report anything to, did she have emergency contacts? Did she deal directly with HS for work or through her assistant? The assistant was off duty, just not sure she would know who to say anything to. As the oddities piled up I assume she was becoming more concerned and said as much to the plant lady. No blood or broken items to show any fights so no reason to call police at that point.

The trainer who IMO would have a more intimate relationship with both B & H and known in their timing and habits would be more concerned but she left, did she try calling HS or the assistant to ask where they may be? She most likely had other clients to see.

All good points.

I would have told realtor Stern. Pulled her aside. She had discovered Honey’s vehicle, phone on the floor, crumpled bed, wallet in kitchen etc. by that point. But no Honey.

The other realtor and their clients arrived first (another red flag).

But… I wasn’t there and don’t know the rules of the home or as an employee.

 

[FromGermany1]

I could write a comprehensive list of the dozens of clues she missed, but it would be unfairly targeting her on my part. No hint from anyone she did anything wrong.

I’m just baffled. I tried putting myself in her place and I still don’t understand. But we haven’t heard her side. She must have good reasons to have overlooked every red flag.

Maybe HS was just not a very popular employer, and BS was often absent anyway, and so she was less worried than one would normally be. I don't know, how long she was employed in Dec 2017. Perhaps she had already experienced many strange events and missed deadlines in that home. MOO

 

[FromGermany1]

All good points.

I would have told realtor Stern. Pulled her aside. She had discovered Honey’s vehicle, phone on the floor, crumpled bed, wallet in kitchen etc. by that point. But no Honey.

The other realtor and their clients arrived first (another red flag).

But… I wasn’t there and don’t know the rules of the home or as an employee.

Maybe the realtor wasn't a person, who would have like an approach by an employee in that situation (accompanied by potential buyers).