Thanks Windsor, yes more than one assailant is possible. But one has to wonder how a second assailant left the crime scene, as LE says they have accounted for all people captured on video in the vicinity of the house, except the NW. Unless BS was the first or second assailant as KW suggests…..
CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #24
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I also considered how the second assailant left the crime scene.
Only three alternatives are possible.
a) The individual left somehow without being detected. This is a possibility, the assailant could have snuck out that night and avoided cameras, or they could have stayed the night, and left in the morning and blended in with the usual morning activity on the street. Remember, that there was no video of the NW entering or leaving the Sherman's property. So the possibility of someone entering the property from Forest Heights Blvd from the rear undetected, is possible.
b) The TPS may have seen someone and identified and interviewed that person. We on this forum do not know who the TPS has questioned. This is not unusual TPS procedure, as in the Bruce MacArthur case, they questioned Bruce, and released him without laying charges, while they continued watching him and collecting more evidence. The TPS has stated that the NW is a POI, they have not stated he is the only POI.
c) There was no other assailant other than the NW. If we assume the NW was only assailant, he must be a unique individual. The TPS does not know who he is, they cannot find him, and he killed two people without the use of a weapon (gun, club, knife, for example).
MOO
fadedglitter
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This lives rent free in my mind too!
a) second person arrived and left undetected: This is KD’s theory and I find it uncompelling. If this second person somehow knew of a secret way onto the property, why not share the information with the NW? Why risk getting the accomplice caught when you could both enter and exit undetected?
b) second person is known to TPS: this is also uncompelling to me. If the police have evidence that a person is a double murderer, they would arrest the person.
c) no other assailant: This is the only remaining option, MOO.
Every option involving a second killer seems to be working backward from a theory that requires the killer to be an individual who does not physically resemble the NW.
a) second person arrived and left undetected: This is KD’s theory and I find it uncompelling. If this second person somehow knew of a secret way onto the property, why not share the information with the NW? Why risk getting the accomplice caught when you could both enter and exit undetected?
b) second person is known to TPS: this is also uncompelling to me. If the police have evidence that a person is a double murderer, they would arrest the person.
c) no other assailant: This is the only remaining option, MOO.
Every option involving a second killer seems to be working backward from a theory that requires the killer to be an individual who does not physically resemble the NW.
acutename
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could have had a weapon and used it as a threat actually. the more I think about this, the odder it is to me that the crime scene was so "neat." with two victims, you would think there might be some signs of a struggle, but possibly the two cooperated because the killer had one "in hand" and they were both threatened.
fadeglitter stated
"b) second person is known to TPS: this is also uncompelling to me. If the police have evidence that a person is a double murderer, they would arrest the person."
Police will lay charges and arrest a person, if they have enough evidence that in a court of law, there is a reasonable chance of conviction. There are criminals walking the streets freely that police believe were involved in crimes, that the police do not have enough evidence yet.
This the principle behind so many DNA convictions in Cold cases these days. John Smith murders Bill Jones in 1980.
Police believe John Smith did it and in fact, John Smith is the only POI. In interrogation John Smith denies everything. Police lack evidence to lay charges and get a conviction. The Police wait. Years later DNA evidence proves John Smith is the culprit and is arrested and convicted. If the Police charged John Smith initially, went to trial, and John Smith was found not guilty, he could not be charged again for the same crime under the Double Jeopardy rules.
So I believe in the Sherman case, the TPS is waiting.
MOO
"b) second person is known to TPS: this is also uncompelling to me. If the police have evidence that a person is a double murderer, they would arrest the person."
Police will lay charges and arrest a person, if they have enough evidence that in a court of law, there is a reasonable chance of conviction. There are criminals walking the streets freely that police believe were involved in crimes, that the police do not have enough evidence yet.
This the principle behind so many DNA convictions in Cold cases these days. John Smith murders Bill Jones in 1980.
Police believe John Smith did it and in fact, John Smith is the only POI. In interrogation John Smith denies everything. Police lack evidence to lay charges and get a conviction. The Police wait. Years later DNA evidence proves John Smith is the culprit and is arrested and convicted. If the Police charged John Smith initially, went to trial, and John Smith was found not guilty, he could not be charged again for the same crime under the Double Jeopardy rules.
So I believe in the Sherman case, the TPS is waiting.
MOO
I believe LE has some kind of theory, but aside from video of a short stocky man with a funny walking gait, I don’t think they have any real evidence that would allow them to identify the guilty party/parties. So they may be waiting for additional evidence, but I believe their case is just a theory right now, and I fear it will never progress to anything else.moo
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If it was only one person, then it most likely would have been someone who was an experienced professional at being able to control, subdue and kill people more easily than most. Someone like a mercenary, jail guard, hospital orderly, etc. Could an amateur who never did something like this before have been able to do it?
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I would say so. But it seems to me they had some personal animosity or hatred against the Sherman’s or perceived that they stood to gain from their deaths in some way. Strangling is a personal and close up way to murder someone. Perhaps military trained or LE trained. Someone fairly strong to be able to drag and truss up the bodies.
As time goes by we seem to lose focus on or forget some people that were of interest in the early days after the murder, and should still be in our minds. AP for instance. And JD. BK. I’m sure there are others I am forgetting also.
An interesting aspect that is overlooked regarding the the NW is how they straight flat plant push down on their left foot as they raise/kick up their right foot when walking. While the focus has been mostly on the right foot, you can't have one action without the other to support it when using both/two legs to walk. I found it difficult to fully imitate the NW's walk with these elements/characteristics. Also, there is an unusual " [ " pant crease up near the top left leg like a fold.
Surely unrelated, just noting that the alleged S.A. perp's walk in this cctv, is not dissimilar to the WM/N. Walker.
It would be interesting (possibly only to me), if offenders are generally known to have a certain type of gait if walking to and after committing, a violent crime? speculation, imo.
@ 0:20
It would be interesting (possibly only to me), if offenders are generally known to have a certain type of gait if walking to and after committing, a violent crime? speculation, imo.
@ 0:20
Thanks, something new to add to this bare thread..
Homes and vehicle struck by gunfire in Rosedale and York Mills overnight
Toronto police are investigating after two homes and a vehicle were struck by gunfire in separate areas late last night in Rosedale-Moore Park and York Mills.
Officers were called to the area of Mt. Pleasant Road and St. Clair Avenue East shortly before midnight at 11:52 p.m.
When they arrived, they found evidence of gunfire, police said in a post on X.
About an hour later at 12:58 p.m., officers were called to another home about a 15-minute drive away near Bayview Avenue...
Maybe I’m in the minority, but I don’t think it would take exceptional strength or skill for the average healthy male to subdue people of B&H’s age and strength, especially with the element of surprise. Honey was probably already restrained or dead by the time Barry arrived home.
I simply think jumping a less than robust 70 year old in the dark is not going to meet with much resistance. There is also the chance the killer was armed which makes it all the easier.
I simply think jumping a less than robust 70 year old in the dark is not going to meet with much resistance. There is also the chance the killer was armed which makes it all the easier.
Andrew, I note that you speculated in your comment that the assailant was an average healthy male. If exceptional strength would in your view not be required, would you agree that the assailant could possibly have been a female? (I mean to cast no aspersions- There are many exceptionally strong males and females, and there are many not so exceptionally strong males and females). My point is, I think it is fair to say that we have always assumed the assailant(s) were male. But it is entirely possible that HS was the principal target as has been speculated here; and that may point to a female killer. Something we should not dismiss necessarily out of hand I think. MOO
Sure thing, my instinct is that the NW/WM is a man but I’ve been wrong before.
Anything is possible, regarding the gender of the NW. I believe, more relevant is if the NW acted alone.
Let us assume for a moment, that the TPS has 100% proof that there was no one else in the house with the NW and the Sherman's that night. Even if the TPS had this knowledge, as per usual Canadian LE protocol, they would not release this information to the public.
Continuing on with this assumption that the NW acted alone, he was either hired to commit the crime, or he had some personal reason to want the Sherman's dead. The personal motive could be supported by the manner of deaths and how the bodies were staged.
However if it was personal, that would limit the number of potential suspects in a finite way. Somebody who had some dealings or relationship with the Sherman's. That list would get pretty small pretty quickly.
Someone who:
If the TPS has gone through this elimination process, and not discovered a suspect, then the alternative is a professional hit-man of some sort, who has had specific instructions as to the deaths.
Coming back to my original query, was the NW alone in the house with the victims? The TPS may know, but they are not talking.
Would the NW if he was a professional, want someone in the house with him? Probably not if that someone was an amateur.
MOO
Let us assume for a moment, that the TPS has 100% proof that there was no one else in the house with the NW and the Sherman's that night. Even if the TPS had this knowledge, as per usual Canadian LE protocol, they would not release this information to the public.
Continuing on with this assumption that the NW acted alone, he was either hired to commit the crime, or he had some personal reason to want the Sherman's dead. The personal motive could be supported by the manner of deaths and how the bodies were staged.
However if it was personal, that would limit the number of potential suspects in a finite way. Somebody who had some dealings or relationship with the Sherman's. That list would get pretty small pretty quickly.
Someone who:
- Had dealings or relationship with the Sherman's
- Physically able to commit the crime
- Matches the physical description
- Probably expressed anger towards the Sherman's previously
- Knows how to avoid recognition to and from Sherman residence
- Knows how to subdue and kill people.
- May have had military or para-military training
If the TPS has gone through this elimination process, and not discovered a suspect, then the alternative is a professional hit-man of some sort, who has had specific instructions as to the deaths.
Coming back to my original query, was the NW alone in the house with the victims? The TPS may know, but they are not talking.
Would the NW if he was a professional, want someone in the house with him? Probably not if that someone was an amateur.
MOO
The fact that it would take the NW to be strong or have a lot of strength to move the bodies around and also enough strength to kill them both by strangulation which makes it personal but not applying so much strength/pressure so as to not break the hyoid bone may signal it to be someone who has had a love-hate (on-off) relationship with them.
Lexiintoronto
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I think adrenaline could be a factor as well.
Fight4justice
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I had forgotten that their hyoid bones were not broken. Are we possibly looking at someone with a medical background? Someone with the knowledge of how to successfully strangle someone without injury to the bone? Could this really be the motive, the drug corporation? Something to ponder.