CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered @ Home - Toronto #20

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A hired hit man will carry out any orders that are requested of him as long as the money is good. I have nothing to back this up as far as news articles etc, but I have always had a small fascination of the mob and hit men. I have read many true crime novels, news articles and watched true crime documentaries over the years and a hired "hit" is not just shooting the person and fleeing the scene. A hired "hit" could be torture then killing the person, a shot to the head, severe beatings then killing them or just whatever the person orders. The mob tends to just shoot a person and leaves, but not in every case. Even the mob will follow orders and some of the killings that have been ordered from the mob can be very gruesome and just not a gun shot to the head.

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The best example I can think of is the Khashoggi assassination. This was a "hit" apparently ordered by the Saudi Prince. They could of shot him, but instead they beat him, tortured him, cut of his fingers and dismembered his body.
 
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IMO i continue to believe that the murders were very personal in nature. IMO whoever did this either hated both of the Shermans; or stood to benefit (or thought they would benefit- likely financially) from both of them being dead. And I do think that HS' will (or supposed lack thereof) is important to the case. All MOO of course.
 
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It appears that the killer may have just been trying to buy time for their escape by placing the bodies in one of the most remote places in the house where they could be undiscovered for some time. The bodies were not discovered for around 36 hours. The bodies may have been posed to give it a murder-suicide look instead of a double murder in order to confuse LE. This did somewhat confuse LE since it took a few weeks before it was declared a double murder instead of a murder-suicide which was what LE first declared. Also, the pool area and its damp atmosphere seemed to have deteriorated any evidence that may have been on them more. It may be that the killer may have been thinking in a more practical longer escape and detection time window in terms of why they did what they did with the bodies after killing them and it seemed to have worked in their favour.
 
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It appears that the killer may have just been trying to buy time for their escape by placing the bodies in one of the most remote places in the house where they could be undiscovered for some time. The bodies were not discovered for around 36 hours. The bodies may have been posed to give it a murder-suicide look instead of a double murder in order to confuse LE. This did somewhat confuse LE since it took a few weeks before it was declared a double murder instead of a murder-suicide which was what LE first declared. Also, the pool area and its damp atmosphere seemed to have deteriorated any evidence that may have been on them more. It may be that the killer may have been thinking in a more practical longer escape and detection time window in terms of why they did what they did with the bodies after killing them and it seemed to have worked in their favour.

I am not sure 'buying time for an escape' was a motivating factor. If time was of the essence one shot to the head and two to the torso with a small caliber pistol would be the quickest means of death for each victim.
If you wanted to delay discovery, hide the bodies in the nearest closets or under junk in garage.
 
I am not sure 'buying time for an escape' was a motivating factor. If time was of the essence one shot to the head and two to the torso with a small caliber pistol would be the quickest means of death for each victim.
If you wanted to delay discovery, hide the bodies in the nearest closets or under junk in garage.
Gunshots would make noises that may attract neighbour attention along with the potential for blood coming out of the wounds making messes. Maybe a gun was used to threaten and control the victims to be compliant.
 
Gunshots would make noises that may attract neighbour attention along with the potential for blood coming out of the wounds making messes. Maybe a gun was used to threaten and control the victims to be compliant.
Asphyxiation keeps ''the human body complete'', imo.
''Certain religions have objections to autopsy (eg, Islam, Judaism) in that bodily intrusion violates the sanctity of keeping the human body complete, despite those religious doctrines not strictly forbidding it''
 
It took 7 weeks for Moscow Idaho Police (a town of 25,000 people with 36 police officers) with assistance from state police and the FBI to locate and arrest a suspected killer. I find it very very difficult to believe that the Sherman’s murderer(s) didn’t leave some DNA traces at the murder scene. And yet 5 years later, we have no arrests, no one has been charged with the Sherman murders, no relief has come to the Sherman family. Toronto has over 3 million people, and the largest municipal police force in Canada with over 5400 unifomed officers. So I can’t help but wonder if LE missed, for whatever reason, finding and collecting key DNA and other evidence in the Sherman murders. In addition to DNA and physical evidence, with so many cameras in the Sherman’s neighbourhood, it just seems unbelievable to me that the TPS apparently does not have enough evidence to lead to arrests in the Sherman’s murders.
Just venting I guess……
 
It took 7 weeks for Moscow Idaho Police (a town of 25,000 people with 36 police officers) with assistance from state police and the FBI to locate and arrest a suspected killer. I find it very very difficult to believe that the Sherman’s murderer(s) didn’t leave some DNA traces at the murder scene. And yet 5 years later, we have no arrests, no one has been charged with the Sherman murders, no relief has come to the Sherman family. Toronto has over 3 million people, and the largest municipal police force in Canada with over 5400 unifomed officers. So I can’t help but wonder if LE missed, for whatever reason, finding and collecting key DNA and other evidence in the Sherman murders. In addition to DNA and physical evidence, with so many cameras in the Sherman’s neighbourhood, it just seems unbelievable to me that the TPS apparently does not have enough evidence to lead to arrests in the Sherman’s murders.
Just venting I guess……

I was just thinking something similar. We know they have persons of interest, maybe releasing more information about how they are implicated may help witnesses come forward, imo.

I was going to post this quote about Idaho murders:

““Also, based on information from the preliminary investigation, investigators believe this was an isolated, targeted attack and there is no imminent threat to the community at large,” police said.

Later in the day, police released another statement, attempting to calm fears of a killer on the loose.

“We hear you, and we understand your fears,” police said. “We determined early in the investigation that we do not believe there is an ongoing threat for community members. Evidence indicates that this was a targeted attack.””

With the Sherman murders we were also told a few times in the beginning that the police weren’t actively seeking suspects and the community was not in danger. Maybe part of the reason for them doing that was because they had the NW on cctv and they felt the Shermans were targeted.
 
Gunshots would make noises that may attract neighbour attention along with the potential for blood coming out of the wounds making messes. Maybe a gun was used to threaten and control the victims to be compliant.

"How far you can hear a .22 varies depending on how sound travels and the environment.
Under perfect conditions, you can hear it from up to two miles away. Nevertheless, in an urban setting with many noise sources and buildings, the distance can be reduced to a few hundred yards.
A classic .22 caliber round emits sound that is comparable, in decibels, to a an ambulance siren or a rock concert.

In the winter in Toronto, with the houses closed up tight, Televisions on, Furnace on, most people inside their homes would hear nothing. If the killer used 'sub-sonic' rounds or a silencer, the sound would be even less. BTW the Mossad's weapon of choice for this type of work is a .22 handgun.

Here is the sound of a silenced.22...........
As loud as a staple gun!

Regarding blood from wounds, once heart stops pumping, minimal bleeding. The first head shot often stops the heart.

In my opinion, a gun was not used, intentionally.

I would consider strangulation/asphyxiation a horrible way to die, especially because you will likely be conscious of what is happening for several minutes before you blackout. If this method was specified in the perpetrator's instructions, then there was real evil and malicious intent. Otherwise the killer was just sadistic.
 
Just my 2 cents.

Based on the autopsy reports from the second pathologist (which was obviously accepted by TPS when they then claimed a targeted, double homicide) the Sermans' wrists were both tied by zip tie-like bondages, and their necks showed the same thin injuries of ligature neck compressions under the belt marks. The zip ties weren't found at the crime scene, which debunked the M/S theory.

So the killer came prepared with zip ties used to both contain them and then kill them. We don't know if the killer also brought two belts to hang them to the pool railing, which would denote a pre-planned staging for whatever reason. We only know that KD "thinks" the two belts were the ones Honey had recently bought at Canadian Tire for Barry, which of course has never been confirmed by TPS. Did the killer take Barry's belt off of him, and then go upstairs to find another one?

Keeping in mind that TPS did a tower dump of cellular phone communication in the area leading up to, and including the time of the crime, nobody was communicating with the killer before or after the murders. Nobody was directing the killer to do anything unplanned. This makes me think that using belts in the pool room could have been pre-planned like the zip ties..if this was a professional hit.

Experts claim that strangulation is an up-close and personal way of killing a person, and the enraged killer knows the victim. These are classified as crimes of passion, which an expert (M.A) claimed this case could be when watching KW fail his polygraph. Evidence has now shown that these murders were well pre-planned, targeted homicides which has taken the investigation to collect evidence in several countries. If that doesn't sound like a professional hit, what does?

Despite the usual signs of a crime of passion in the way the Shermans were killed, and how the investigation is proceeding, I don't think the person responsible was present at the crime scene. jmo
 
Sorry, I posted the below in the wrong thread.. meant to post this here:
--
I'm curious if anyone else remembers toward the beginning of this case, when then-Chief Saunders said he had no qualms about disagreeing with the family's notion and insistence that the situation was NOT a murder-suicide (my words, from memory) - that is to say, that although the family may be making a stink about the murder/suicide theory (which police have never admitted to having in the first place), Saunders was making the point that police were not going to be bullied by wealth, nor status in the community, etc., in stating that it WAS murder/suicide, IF that is the conclusion they would eventually come to.


I'm not sure if it was written in a news article, or verbally in a press conference, or a verbal news interview, perhaps on TV? I believe there was at least some discussion about it on here at the time.
 
Sorry, I posted the below in the wrong thread.. meant to post this here:
--
I'm curious if anyone else remembers toward the beginning of this case, when then-Chief Saunders said he had no qualms about disagreeing with the family's notion and insistence that the situation was NOT a murder-suicide (my words, from memory) - that is to say, that although the family may be making a stink about the murder/suicide theory (which police have never admitted to having in the first place), Saunders was making the point that police were not going to be bullied by wealth, nor status in the community, etc., in stating that it WAS murder/suicide, IF that is the conclusion they would eventually come to.


I'm not sure if it was written in a news article, or verbally in a press conference, or a verbal news interview, perhaps on TV? I believe there was at least some discussion about it on here at the time.
Will look for items from around this date below, assuming that would be the most likely time for those type of comments to be made?

''Police Chief Mark Saunders held a fiery press conference himself late Friday. This most careful man was uncharacteristically angry (and no wonder)''
Christie Blatchford Oct 26, 2018

''Saunders held a fiery press conference himself late Friday. This most careful man was uncharacteristically angry (and no wonder).

He defended the TPS investigators and their investigation, denied his officers had ever reached a premature conclusion, pointing out that all the force had ever said was that police weren’t looking for suspects and that there had been no sign of forced entry at the house, and that “people (the media) took the ball and ran” with it.

Putting it in context, Saunders said the neighbourhood was in the midst of a rash of break-ins, and officers wanted to assure the locals this was not one that had turned violent and gone wrong. Police always had believed the deaths were suspicious, he said.

“Mr. Greenspan does not have the entire investigation,” Saunders snapped, only the police team does, along with the prosecutors they’ve consulted all along and the judge who has supervised the issuing of search warrants.

Asked if the probe had been mishandled, Saunders, a seasoned homicide detective himself, said that in all the murders he handled, in retrospect, “there were things I could have done differently,” but that this investigation “was done well and continues to be done well.”

''Toronto Police Chief Saunders responded to these criticisms, saying that police never reached a “premature conclusion” that it was a case of murder suicide. The reason police initially said that “there was no sign of forced entry” was because the north Toronto neighbourhood where the Shermans lived had seen a spate of break-ins and the officer was trying to reassure the public. “That community was incredibly alarmed,” Saunders told the media.

On Greenspan’s criticism of the police probe, Chief Saunders said “we conclude that the investigation was done well.

“Everyone is entitled to their opinion,” the chief told reporters gathered at police headquarters. “But we don’t deal in opinions; we deal in facts.”
 
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It took 7 weeks for Moscow Idaho Police (a town of 25,000 people with 36 police officers) with assistance from state police and the FBI to locate and arrest a suspected killer. I find it very very difficult to believe that the Sherman’s murderer(s) didn’t leave some DNA traces at the murder scene. And yet 5 years later, we have no arrests, no one has been charged with the Sherman murders, no relief has come to the Sherman family. Toronto has over 3 million people, and the largest municipal police force in Canada with over 5400 unifomed officers. So I can’t help but wonder if LE missed, for whatever reason, finding and collecting key DNA and other evidence in the Sherman murders. In addition to DNA and physical evidence, with so many cameras in the Sherman’s neighbourhood, it just seems unbelievable to me that the TPS apparently does not have enough evidence to lead to arrests in the Sherman’s murders.
Just venting I guess……
The goal is not to make an arrest, the prosecution and the TPS want a high probability of conviction in a court of law before laying charges.

Assume for a minute Bill Jones was the perpetrator. The TPS arrest and charge Bill Jones. The Prosecutor has to be ready for trial, and have enough witnesses and evidence to convince the jury to find Bill Jones guilty. The prosecution knows that Bill Jones' law team will have all the resources they need to create probable doubt in the minds of the jury.
It does no one any good to charge someone for a crime and then lose in court. The charges will be laid when the prosecution is confident of a victory in court.
If the TPS were to identify and question the 'Night Walker', who in interrogation said "Bill Jones paid me $1,000,000.00 to kill the Shermans, and here is a copy of the bank transfer from his account into my bank account, charges would be laid quickly.
 
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Will look for items from around this date below, assuming that would be the most likely time for those type of comments to be made?

''Police Chief Mark Saunders held a fiery press conference himself late Friday. This most careful man was uncharacteristically angry (and no wonder)''
Christie Blatchford Oct 26, 2018

''Saunders held a fiery press conference himself late Friday. This most careful man was uncharacteristically angry (and no wonder).

He defended the TPS investigators and their investigation, denied his officers had ever reached a premature conclusion, pointing out that all the force had ever said was that police weren’t looking for suspects and that there had been no sign of forced entry at the house, and that “people (the media) took the ball and ran” with it.

Putting it in context, Saunders said the neighbourhood was in the midst of a rash of break-ins, and officers wanted to assure the locals this was not one that had turned violent and gone wrong. Police always had believed the deaths were suspicious, he said.

“Mr. Greenspan does not have the entire investigation,” Saunders snapped, only the police team does, along with the prosecutors they’ve consulted all along and the judge who has supervised the issuing of search warrants.

Asked if the probe had been mishandled, Saunders, a seasoned homicide detective himself, said that in all the murders he handled, in retrospect, “there were things I could have done differently,” but that this investigation “was done well and continues to be done well.”

''Toronto Police Chief Saunders responded to these criticisms, saying that police never reached a “premature conclusion” that it was a case of murder suicide. The reason police initially said that “there was no sign of forced entry” was because the north Toronto neighbourhood where the Shermans lived had seen a spate of break-ins and the officer was trying to reassure the public. “That community was incredibly alarmed,” Saunders told the media.

On Greenspan’s criticism of the police probe, Chief Saunders said “we conclude that the investigation was done well.

“Everyone is entitled to their opinion,” the chief told reporters gathered at police headquarters. “But we don’t deal in opinions; we deal in facts.”
The article you posted is almost a year later... what I am referring to happened very early, IIRC.
 
The goal is not to make an arrest, the prosecution and the TPS want a high probability of conviction in a court of law before laying charges.

Assume for a minute Bill Jones was the perpetrator. The TPS arrest and charge Bill Jones. The Prosecutor has to be ready for trial, and have enough witnesses and evidence to convince the jury to find Bill Jones guilty. The prosecution knows that Bill Jones' law team will have all the resources they need to create probable doubt in the minds of the jury.
It does no one any good to charge someone for a crime and then lose in court. The charges will be laid when the prosecution is confident of a victory in court.
If the TPS were to identify and question the 'Night Walker', who in interrogation said "Bill Jones paid me $1,000,000.00 to kill the Shermans, and here is a copy of the bank transfer from his account into my bank account, charges would be laid quickly.
I agree sufficient evidence is required for a conviction. BUT US trials happen much faster than in Canada, and yet in Idaho they feel they have a case solid enough after just 7 weeks ( 49 days) to make an arrest. 5 years is a long time- over 1800 days. Just saying.
 

After going back and forth in my mind about the 'posing' of the bodies I'm starting to wonder whether the appearance of copying the statues was just incidental.

Lets assume for a moment that Honey was secured and injured on the ground floor when Barry arrived. He was either surprised or accosted as he entered the home from the garage based on the dropped gloves and real estate documents. I presume both B and H were conscious prior to their deaths since there was evidence at the second autopsy they had been handcuffed with some type of restraint. That would suggest to me who ever killed them wanted them under control for a while. Maybe they wanted information, about what I don't know. It could be business based or it could have been personal. I lean toward personal.

They died by ligature asphyxiation prior to being hung from the pool railing. That means they were dragged there from some other location, likely already deceased. The drag marks don't show signs of scuffling and resisting. Barry was dragged there first since he was hung up higher than Honey probably because the killer had more room to maneuver. Maybe he was laid on his side or his body slumped over and when the killer hoisted him up his leg ended up being crossed over the other. Then Honey was hung up but with less room to maneuver because of the railing and Barry's body he could only hoist her body enough so she was in a more supine position.

I think most people assume the two sculptures are male and female. You see the closest sculpture immediately as female since she has the elongated neck like women in the South African tribe but the other sculpture with the crossed leg also has very distinctive breasts so that one appears to be female, too. If the killer viewed Barry as a pejorative starting with P then maybe the posing was calculated but just as equally unplanned.

Do you guys remember the urban explorer who entered the Sherman home prior to its razing and after it was released by the police and deserted by the family? He stated at one time he saw numerous holes punched in the walls mainly in the master bedroom if my memory serves me. I always wondered whether that was because the killer was looking for Honey's phantom will. I've never heard that information being referred to in any police accounts or even from KD.

Edited for punctuation.
 
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After going back and forth in my mind about the 'posing' of the bodies I'm starting to wonder whether the appearance of copying the statues was just incidental.

Lets assume for a moment that Honey was secured and injured on the ground floor when Barry arrived. He was either surprised or accosted as he entered the home from the garage based on the dropped gloves and real estate documents. I presume both B and H were conscious prior to their deaths since there was evidence at the second autopsy they had been handcuffed with some type of restraint. That would suggest to me who ever killed them wanted them under control for a while. Maybe they wanted information, about what I don't know. It could be business based or it could have been personal. I lean toward personal.

They died by ligature asphyxiation prior to being hung from the pool railing. That means they were dragged there from some other location, likely already deceased. The drag marks don't show signs of scuffling and resisting. Barry was dragged there first since he was hung up higher than Honey probably because the killer had more room to maneuver. Maybe he was laid on his side or his body slumped over and when the killer hoisted him up his leg ended up being crossed over the other. Then Honey was hung up but with less room to maneuver because of the railing and Barry's body he could only hoist her body enough so she was in a more supine position.

I think most people assume the two sculptures are male and female. You see the closest sculpture immediately as female since she has the elongated neck like women in the South African tribe but the other sculpture with the crossed leg also has very distinctive breasts so that one appears to be female, too. If the killer viewed Barry as a pejorative starting with P then maybe the posing was calculated but just as equally unplanned.

Do you guys remember the urban explorer who entered the Sherman home prior to its razing and after it was released by the police and deserted by the family? He stated at one time he saw numerous holes punched in the walls mainly in the master bedroom if my memory serves me. I always wondered whether that was because the killer was looking for Honey's phantom will. I've never heard that information being referred to in any police accounts or even from KD.

Edited for punctuation.
If BS was killed in the basement and HS was killed on the main floor, the killer may have found it easier to get BS's body into the pool room first since it was closer to the pool even though HS may have been killed first upstairs. Then after staging BS's body, the killer may have dragged HS's body downstairs and into the pool room to also stage.
 
If BS was killed in the basement and HS was killed on the main floor, the killer may have found it easier to get BS's body into the pool room first since it was closer to the pool even though HS may have been killed first upstairs. Then after staging BS's body, the killer may have dragged HS's body downstairs and into the pool room to also stage.
I have also envisioned HS could have been subdued with zip ties upstairs and was pushed down the stairs when the perp heard BS arrive home.


Came across this info while looking for details on zip/cable ties used in murder:

[Simulated suicide by hanging after homicidal strangulation]​



Abstract​

Homicides by hanging and the simulation of suicide by hanging a victim previously killed or made unable to resist by other means are regarded as extremely rare events, although especially in German forensic literature cases of this kind were repeatedly reported. The paper adds another example to the number of observations published so far: A 23-year-old student strangled his 58-year-old father with an electric cable until he ceased to show any signs of life. Then he hanged the victim at the handrail of the staircase with a running noose. From the forensic point of view the following clues pointed to homicide: presence of massive signs of facial congestion in spite of the "typical" situation of hanging, horizontal ligature mark in addition to the noose mark, skin injuries at the head and the upper extremities, traces of blood near the place where the body was found. The case history presented emphasizes again that for differential diagnosis the possibility of a dissimulated homicide has to be considered in all cases where a body is found suspended.

had to look up the definition of dissimulate:​

dis·sim·u·late

past tense: dissimulated; past participle: dissimulated conceal or disguise (one's thoughts, feelings, or character).
"a country gentleman who dissimulates his wealth beneath ragged pullovers"

Similar: pretend - deceive - feign - act - dissemble - masquerade - pose
 
Wondering if the ''twist'' of the belts in the S murders revealed which direction the fibers twisted and if the perp was left or right handed?
Reminded of an execution, imo, speculation, fwiw.
''Unless the victim is an infant or an adult person incapacitated by drink, disease, or drugs, or unless there are several assailants murder is difficult to accomplish. Distinction between murder and suicide may be impossible by an examination of the body alone. Detailed investigation of the scene, reconstruction of the position of the suspended body, examination of the rope, the knots, the direction of the fibres on the rope may serve to discover homicidal hanging.''

1673367770383.png
Local TV stations broadcast footage showing the room where death row inmates are hanged.
The Star has seen the Sherman crime scene photos | The Star

The Toronto Star
Sherman crime scene photos ...
 
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