CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered @ Home - Toronto #20

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Bobbi Pearl said:
I am not sure when the un answered 911 call came in if it was Wed night or Thursday morning. But have also wondered if the WM / NW may have used a cell phone to call in something happening at 50 Old Colony, maybe the plan was to find the bodies earlier. but he was closer to the neighbor home and thus why they went there.

Edit to add
was the neighbor who got the 911 visit the neighbor behind the Sherman's home, where the police blocked the driveway for weeks?
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No I believe it was a neighbour on old colony rd
 
Bobbi Pearl said:
If there actually were any holes in the wall? we have an un founded report of someone who said they did all of this and never gave any photo's as proof? to me it is just a story and without video or photo back up it is useless red flags to mull over for me.

But if it is true, if so at what height on the wall are the holes, how many, what size? a fist or a foot or a sledge hammer? were they cut with a saw?

Logically if holes did exist it could have been the crime scene collection and it has potential evidence on the walls like a hand print or something?
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Maybe the demo company to locate plumbing and elec lines, etc before demolition?
 
newclues said:
Yes, the second one uses strait jackets. Someone not only subdued them and killed them but also dragged them dead to the pool area too. It requires some strength and coordination if it was done by only one person.
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They might have been marched to the pool area, and even to the railing, not necessarily dragged. Despite some apparent unexplained drag marks on the floor
 
What would have happened, if BS after the architects meeting said to HS, he wanted to change the sum, he had promised to give her. His gift, paid to HS and for her individual disposal first in her lifetime, actually should have been enough for the new mansion and HS' sister, afaik. If BS hated the idea of moving into the new mansion and/or didn't like the giant gift, which HS planned to make to her sister, he could have said: I am in a financial crisis, our son won't pay back his loan, I will give to you only half of the sum (or even less), I once promised.
HS would have protested and would have said, she already changed her own will weeks before.
What then?
What, if there were listening devices in the home and the person, who had stalked the spouses for a month, overheard that discussion?
 
FromGermany1 said:
What would have happened, if BS after the architects meeting said to HS, he wanted to change the sum, he had promised to give her. His gift, paid to HS and for her individual disposal first in her lifetime, actually should have been enough for the new mansion and HS' sister, afaik. If BS hated the idea of moving into the new mansion and/or didn't like the giant gift, which HS planned to make to her sister, he could have said: I am in a financial crisis, our son won't pay back his loan, I will give to you only half of the sum (or even less), I once promised.
HS would have protested and would have said, she already changed her own will weeks before.
What then?
What, if there were listening devices in the home and the person, who had stalked the spouses for a month, overheard that discussion?
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Does anyone know the law in Ontario concerning a lawyer revealing confidential lawyer-client information to LE after the death of a client, when LE is investigating murder? I think maybe that lawyer, who tried to reach Barry and Honey the night of their murder, had important info that he shared with LE, and probably paperwork, as well. That would prove possible motive, but not be enough to make an arrest.
 
Sphinx said:
Does anyone know the law in Ontario concerning a lawyer revealing confidential lawyer-client information to LE after the death of a client, when LE is investigating murder? I think maybe that lawyer, who tried to reach Barry and Honey the night of their murder, had important info that he shared with LE, and probably paperwork, as well. That would prove possible motive, but not be enough to make an arrest.
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I have no idea, but I would assume they would have to report what they know when it involves murder? The Paul Bernardo and Karla Holmoka case comes to mind. Remember the lawyer knew about the tapes and hid them from police? That lawyer ended up in court over criminal charges (obstruction of justice) and was close to being debarred! He eventually got off on all charges but it was quite a big case and it dragged on for years.
 
Window21 said:
I have no idea, but I would assume they would have to report what they know when it involves murder? The Paul Bernardo and Karla Holmoka case comes to mind. Remember the lawyer knew about the tapes and hid them from police? That lawyer ended up in court over criminal charges (obstruction of justice) and was close to being debarred! He eventually got off on all charges but it was quite a big case and it dragged on for years.
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One thing to keep in mind is the special prosecutorial/investigative deal that Apotex had with the law firm and the police/feds. It seems to me that Honey's will would not be included in this but KD suggests otherwise in his article:

"Due to a deal worked out between Apotex lawyers and Ontario’s Ministry of the Attorney General, while police were allowed to review 1,387 electronic files, they never saw 586 electronic files (such as an email or a document involving Barry) because Goodmans, the Apotex law firm, determined it was sensitive, “privileged” information.

Some of those were legal communication Honey had with lawyers at two Toronto law firms, Blaney McMurtry LLP or Torkin Manes law firm. Due to redactions, the Star does not know what those communications dealt with but they were not long before Honey died."


DH, normally, would be more compelled to share things. However, he won't with any press including even KD, citing confidentiality. That makes sense, he owes nothing to the press. But it seems if TPS said hey we know you were in contact, we know you called, we are wondering why and whether they made changes to their will (again that would not seem to get the Apotex trade secret treatment with the lawyers), he may say no but they could compel him with court orders that superseded the prosecutorial deal, which seemed to be related to trade secrets, not their personal wills. He would play ball at that point because he could turn around and tell clients he has no choice? Is DH the source TPS said was "dragging his feet"? They were on the verge of getting some new info from this source they spoke of at the time but implied the source did cave and they did get what they were after.
 
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The information provided below does not constitute any assertions of fact with regards to the guilt or action of anyone mentioned. It is conjecture, provided for theoretical, educational, and entertainment purposes. I assume no legal responsibility for the accuracy or correctness of any facts or claims mentioned or for any consequences of relying on any details included. Any theory of supposed action by any party is merely alleged. All narrative characterization is speculative.

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Another thought. Well, a couple maybe.

1. Watch the Crave trailer. Similar to KDs podcast, who does it point to?

2. The belts. They necessitate the killer(s) actually went upstairs. So they went to the master bedroom, and they hung the couple up in the pool room (the only place with a camera in the entire mansion) - how comfortable would you have to be with the layout? Yes, it was publicly available online (full schematics) and was open to viewing. Still, leaves a lot of people close to the Shermans. Who would know that house wasn't surveilled. Who would not be afraid of moving around inside. Anyone would be. But with comfort comes disinhibition. Brazen to walk around that much, to manipulate the bodies that much...

3. And finally, the TS article from Dec 2021. The "new information" suggests that HS/BS were surveilled for a month before the murders.

From the article: "With a few of the numbers, police also wanted access to “tracking and transmission data” six to eight weeks after the murder, just before and just after police announced the Shermans were “targeted” in a double murder. And while there is no indication in these documents that there were any wire taps of phones, one heavily redacted section is headed, “events that may stimulate conversation between involved parties.” Some Star articles relating to the Shermans case are also included in these applications."
 
MerlinFalcon said:
Is the time of the 911 call listed in any of KD's timelines or in his podcasts? The police showed up at the neighbour's house the day after the murders, correct? So maybe the call was made the next day by the murderer who then hung up for whatever reason.
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The information provided below does not constitute any assertions of fact with regards to the guilt or action of anyone mentioned. It is conjecture, provided for theoretical, educational, and entertainment purposes. I assume no legal responsibility for the accuracy or correctness of any facts or claims mentioned or for any consequences of relying on any details included. Any theory of supposed action by any party is merely alleged. All narrative characterization is speculative.

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Would you really place that call as the killer(s)? The only seeming reason would be so that the bodies were found fresh, and the fact that HS was killed first was a no brainer to TPS. That could have consequences re: succession.

Still, that seems awfully risky...

Then again, the murder team took lots of risks and made lots of mistakes themselves. They just got lucky. On many counts. None more important than the homicide unit being dedicated to MacArthur nearly entirely. They were pulling random cops to the Sherman investigation.

You have to understand the MacArthur investigation to really see the situation here. A billionaire couple gets wacked, yes. But this guy was a serial killer and active. He posed an active threat. You have to see that and how big a deal it was. Its plausible they really dropped the ball entirely and made a resource choice, driven by their own bias in favor of M-S. Or, the M-S thing was a ploy the entire time. They go in and see the scene and even laugh themselves. Playing it off as M-S gives them time. It also puts the killer(s) at ease, which as we've pointed out, comfort leads to brazen activity.

Take this note from KD article: "While this was going on, one person police had previously interviewed came forward with new information. This is described starkly in one ITO as “new information,” but the pages the Star has obtained from court are completely redacted because police say to reveal that information will harm their case.

This “new information” appears to have led police to pursue the theory that someone — or some people — were watching Honey and Barry before the murders."

Perhaps one detail often overlooked but supportive of the M-S as a ploy is this:

"With a few of the numbers, police also wanted access to “tracking and transmission data” six to eight weeks after the murder, just before and just after police announced the Shermans were “targeted” in a double murder. And while there is no indication in these documents that there were any wire taps of phones, one heavily redacted section is headed, “events that may stimulate conversation between involved parties.” Some Star articles relating to the Shermans case are also included in these applications."

The obvious point here being that some communication between involved parties in the weeks after may be expected. Strategize the public roll out, who talks, who doesn't, to whom, and of course any payment or transactional events...
 
MerlinFalcon said:
Is the time of the 911 call listed in any of KD's timelines or in his podcasts? The police showed up at the neighbour's house the day after the murders, correct? So maybe the call was made the next day by the murderer who then hung up for whatever reason.
Click to expand...
www.thestar.com

Barry and Honey Sherman’s neighbours cite mysterious 911 call, visitor on day before billionaires found dead

Police investigated a 911 call on the Sherman’s street when the couple lay dead or dying, neighbours say. A security camera also captured a car pulling up and a man approaching the house three times.
www.thestar.com www.thestar.com
May 20, 2019
''No official time of death has been released but sources close to the case have said it is believed the Shermans died late on Wednesday or early Thursday morning. Police are investigating the case as a targeted double homicide.

On the Thursday morning at 9:45 a.m., a full day before the Sherman bodies were discovered, homeowners down the road from the Shermans answered a knock on their door. The Star has agreed not to identify the homeowners or their exact address. They live roughly 10 houses away on Old Colony, near Bayview Ave. and Hwy. 401.


The man at the door was a uniformed police officer asking if someone in their home had made a 911 call. The homeowners said no. The officer shared few details, but said police believed it came from the homeowners’ house, but did not say if the call had come from a cellular phone or a landline. The officer did not say what time the call came in.

The next day, when news surfaced late in the afternoon of the Shermans’ bodies being discovered, one of the homeowners happened to be driving near Toronto Police Services 33 Division (the local division that was at the time investigating the Shermans’ deaths before the homicide unit took over). The homeowner went in to make a report, wanting to alert them to the fact a police officer had been on Old Colony Rd. the day before.

“It was just too much of a coincidence and I thought police should know,” the homeowner told the Star. That Friday night at the police division, the homeowner was told by police that “maybe some wires were crossed” and that is why it appeared a 911 call had been made.''
 
48OldColony said:
1. Why did Dennis Yim tell KD about JS Green Storage building?
2. Isn't it curious the killer(s) went to the pool area, the only place in the house with a security camera?
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48OldColony said:
1. Why did Dennis Yim tell KD about JS Green Storage building?
2. Isn't it curious the killer(s) went to the pool area, the only place in the house with a security camera?
Click to expand...
The security camera in the pool area did not work.
More proof that the murders had intimate knowledge of the house and the neighborhood.
 
RHR said:
The security camera in the pool area did not work.
More proof that the murders had intimate knowledge of the house and the neighborhood.
Click to expand...
They seem to have been comfortable in the home, yes? Manipulating the bodies to that degree, going to the only area in the entire house with a camera, going to the master to get the second belt? They were hanging out in the house for a bit before they got home?

Hanging up up in the pool room does not dovetail with the killer(s) calling 911 though. That would be unconscionably risky. However, they likely knew of the showings and the fact the pool room, not valued by the Shermans, would be by any buyers...
 
48OldColony said:
The information provided below does not constitute any assertions of fact with regards to the guilt or action of anyone mentioned. It is conjecture, provided for theoretical, educational, and entertainment purposes. I assume no legal responsibility for the accuracy or correctness of any facts or claims mentioned or for any consequences of relying on any details included. Any theory of supposed action by any party is merely alleged. All narrative characterization is speculative.

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Wise grasshopper.

To understand your TPS theory more, ask what they stood to gain by pretending they thought it was a murder-suicide. They told you they'd been monitoring people for suspicious behaviour during the investigation. What did they stand to gain?

The interrogation scene, maybe. Its possible they asked for a will. Very possible.

On the last point, yes. This is a rationale position to hold based on the available evidence. The problem is we don't have everything. The police have been very conservative with information since locking down after the initial debacle of a rollout to the investigation. They could have tape. But it does call do mind, a comment from Detective Sgt. Brandon Price along the lines of "walking was the suspect's general mode of travel". They may have a lot of blurry tape they are not hinting at. KD hasn't wandered to comment on this specifically. Like is there a likely spot in the remaining warrant files that are sealed that has a bunch of screengrabs. If they exist, they would be in those sealed files.
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They wanted to make it look like HS drove BS over the cliff with the new changes like new house, new will, etc.
 
dotr said:
www.thestar.com

Barry and Honey Sherman’s neighbours cite mysterious 911 call, visitor on day before billionaires found dead

Police investigated a 911 call on the Sherman’s street when the couple lay dead or dying, neighbours say. A security camera also captured a car pulling up and a man approaching the house three times.
www.thestar.com www.thestar.com
May 20, 2019
''No official time of death has been released but sources close to the case have said it is believed the Shermans died late on Wednesday or early Thursday morning. Police are investigating the case as a targeted double homicide.

On the Thursday morning at 9:45 a.m., a full day before the Sherman bodies were discovered, homeowners down the road from the Shermans answered a knock on their door. The Star has agreed not to identify the homeowners or their exact address. They live roughly 10 houses away on Old Colony, near Bayview Ave. and Hwy. 401.


The man at the door was a uniformed police officer asking if someone in their home had made a 911 call. The homeowners said no. The officer shared few details, but said police believed it came from the homeowners’ house, but did not say if the call had come from a cellular phone or a landline. The officer did not say what time the call came in.

The next day, when news surfaced late in the afternoon of the Shermans’ bodies being discovered, one of the homeowners happened to be driving near Toronto Police Services 33 Division (the local division that was at the time investigating the Shermans’ deaths before the homicide unit took over). The homeowner went in to make a report, wanting to alert them to the fact a police officer had been on Old Colony Rd. the day before.

“It was just too much of a coincidence and I thought police should know,” the homeowner told the Star. That Friday night at the police division, the homeowner was told by police that “maybe some wires were crossed” and that is why it appeared a 911 call had been made.''
Click to expand...
Thanks. So the police officer went to the house about 12 hours after the murders likely took place but we don't know what time the call was made. I always assumed Honey made the call as she was grabbed but maybe not. Maybe it was Barry? Maybe neither?
 
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