CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

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However, the injury to C's breastbone speaks of a totally inept "hunter" as you would not try to cut that if you where field dressing a deer or some other animal. If you can stomach the images, there are online videos where hunters show how to conduct this procedure quickly and correctly.

I totally agree--and after perusing the Kaufman Report, even his sanitized version makes it clear this was something much more rabid and frenzied, it seems to me. (As an aside, what a no-win situation for the poor guy writing the report--can't bite the hand that feeds you, can't let the public lose faith in law enforcement and justice, but the way he had to bend over backwards sometimes makes his real thoughts pretty clear, I think)

I've read just enough now to know I need to read more! I plan on reading the thread again, but haven't yet, so apologize if this may have been answered already, but, do we know if any of the wounds were post-mortem?

Another immediate question is do we know who the person in the white car was? Both Morin's sister and a neighbor reported seeing a white car in the driveway that afternoon per the Kaufman Report--they even tried to hypnotize the sister for license plate information, it sounds like.

Is the WPS being discussed (and from the book, I think?) the guy with the van who disappeared? I am slogging through old articles and after the DNA exoneration the papers discussed the police went back to 3 suspects and he was among the three. I'm trying to figure out how to cut/paste/link to some articles---but since are subscription (darn Toronto Star!) am kind of stymied.
 
I think the perp drove the knife so forcefully into her chest that the breastbone was sliced cleanly in half and part of the bone got stuck on his knife when he pulled it out. Maybe there was a hilt on the knife and it caught in her ribs. JMO
 
GRRR...This poor girl deserved so much more than any of the authorities have given her so far (from all accounts I've read). Is anyone (except us) still working on this? I know that there has been discussion of which police force is "handling" the case... But are any of them actually working on it? Or is this lost in some pile on their desk? *end vent* :maddening:
 
Dedpanman - on Al and Bill Mack -

The only thoughts I have had on these two are, the older brother Bill may have failed his polygraph due to lying about previous acts with Christine that he adamantly denied but his brother said happened.

Attending school on 3 October 1984 then driving to Queensville for the purpose of abducting Christine? Why that day? Did they know she would be alone that afternoon and they would have ample opportunity to abduct her unseen? Did they drive there for the purpose of abducting her regardless of who was at the Jessop home around 4:00 pm? Why did they have to drive 50 kms? Why did they want to tear her apart? If she was going to talk about what had happened between this group, why not just kill her?

Since I can't reasonably answer these questions, I have to doubt their involvement. Jmo. I also think Tweedy would have gone to the trouble of comparing their DNA when he had the chance.
 
On Uncle Hector - he does fade out in RR and I only have questions regarding him.

Why was Bob cleaning out Uncle Hector's garage when Christine was a missing person?

Was Uncle Hector sure of finding Christine alone on 3 October 1984 at about 4:00 pm if he drove to Queensville? Somehow I doubt it. Jmo.
 
During their original investigation, Durham police talked to two of the three suspects and cleared them; a third, who can be identified only as W.P., mysteriously vanished before police could talk with him.

On the day Christine disappeared, W.P. was seen driving his van through the Queensville area where she was abducted, on his way to pick up used auto parts from car wreckers along Ravenshoe Rd.

The next morning, the knife-carrying man was seen washing down the interior of the van with a high-powered hose and detergent, paying special attention to the dashboard and seats.

Investigators later found his past included problems with theft, a stint in a Queensville group home and a familiarity with Ravenshoe Rd., one of the quickest routes to the field where Christine's body was found.

Police didn't know about W.P. until the day of Christine's funeral, Jan. 7, 1985, and while they seized the van, the man was long gone.

Suggestions of grease or oil were found on a small stain on the turtleneck sweater Christine was wearing when she disappeared, but the necessary tests to confirm were never conducted and forensic analysts couldn't find any other signs of oil on the girl's clothes.

The van itself was never examined for signs of grease or blood.

Source: Attention returns to 3 suspects Police say they'll look at theories all over again
Toronto Star - Toronto, Ont.
Author: By Nicolaas van Rijn TORONTO STAR
Date: Jan 24, 1995


Do we know now who WP is?
 
Hypnosis had been undergone by some witnesses, such as Yvette Devine, Guy Paul Morin's sister, who had seen a suspicious car in the driveway at the Jessop residence on the day of Christine’s disappearance, in order to help her recall details of the licence plate.

Chapter IV, Page 657 Kaufman Report

On February 22, 1985, Inspector Shephard and Detective Fitzpatrick attempted to find Mr. Morin’s sister, Yvette Devine, to interview her concerning a white car she had seen on the afternoon of October 3, 1984 in the Jessop driveway.

Chapter V, Page 786

In the weeks following Christine’s disappearance, Ms. Chipman spoke to officers from the York Regional Police on several occasions. She told them that approximately a week before Christine disappeared, two men in a white sports car with tinted windows had followed her and Christine first to the park, then to the general store and finally back to the park. She also gave them information about other men speaking with them at the tennis courts.

Chapter V, Page 985


Was the white car in either case identified?
 
Was this ever followed up on?

Genetic testing on samples taken from Christine Jessop's underpants could indicate that there were two attackers involved in her 1984 murder, says a California scientist.

Dr. Edward Blake, one of three scientists involved in the DNA testing that last week exonerated Guy Paul Morin of the sex slaying, said it's possible the test samples of semen could have come from two people.

"We are not making any sort of claim or assertion that is proven by the (test) work," Dr. Blake was quoted in the Law Times.

"But there's hints of something there that might be borne in mind."

Source: Two attackers theory raised in Jessop case
The Spectator - Hamilton, Ont.
Date: Jan 31, 1995
 
Dedpanman - on Al and Bill Mack -

The only thoughts I have had on these two are, the older brother Bill may have failed his polygraph due to lying about previous acts with Christine that he adamantly denied but his brother said happened.

Attending school on 3 October 1984 then driving to Queensville for the purpose of abducting Christine? Why that day? Did they know she would be alone that afternoon and they would have ample opportunity to abduct her unseen? Did they drive there for the purpose of abducting her regardless of who was at the Jessop home around 4:00 pm? Why did they have to drive 50 kms? Why did they want to tear her apart? If she was going to talk about what had happened between this group, why not just kill her?

Since I can't reasonably answer these questions, I have to doubt their involvement. Jmo. I also think Tweedy would have gone to the trouble of comparing their DNA when he had the chance.

Lots of little points being brought up and passed by. Just wanted to preserve a little future leeway to revisit this one.

The question of, why would the Police request that a witness claiming to have seen Christine with a couple of boys, change his story to CJ was seen with a girl? This was at a time when the Police had choices as to which suspect to pursue. This story stands at the crossroads, the juncture between when witnesses were still reporting sightings and where the evidence could have led as opposed to what the Police decided to pursue. That being Guy Paul Morin. As the evidence now shows, it could not have been Morin and he had time slips from work and store receipts to prove it.

Why did the Police give up on all other leads right then? Seems the last act before going after GPM was to have the only or the last potential witness change his story to, “no boys were on that corner with Christine". Why even bother requesting that if the witness was to be written off anyway and the story therefore made of no consequence? That last act before going after Morin may be a very important point to remember. There was no real justification to pursue GPM except for false reasons without validity. There never was any proof of guilt; there always was proof of innocence. The Police knew it couldn’t have been GPM. What they did may have to be considered as deliberate. Why?

Its not incompetence, stupidity, tunnel vision; none of those excuses. It’s something different and more than a bit bizarre. Near unprecedented to see at this level and degree for a crime like this. It allowed some guilty party to evade investigation.

In hindsight our question here, did Christine’s past have any bearing on what happened to her? The coincidence factor came into play. Suspicions pointed at someone in the grapevine from the original sexual molestations. Those original sexual encounters were with boys related to a high-ranking uncle Police officer. An older cousin son of that Police officer has been mentioned elsewhere by other parties. A Police officer of rank may be one of the few with ways and means to sidetrack and thwart an investigation into something like this. If there were a motive to sidetrack, to keep someone out of the investigation, the boys have potential to top that list.

As said, they couldn’t have botched this investigation any more if they had tried. Was there a plan in place before this day? Bob Jessop said, “if not that day it would have been another.” Was GPM a patsy and part of a plan? They just didn’t know he would stop at the store that day and have a receipt?

So back to that corner and the boys seen with Christine. Obviously it was not the boys acting alone if they were involved. Abuse can be generational and participants trained by others older and more experienced. There can be rings of them and any leaks can threaten many.

Maybe these boys or some other boys were used as part of a plan? Maybe just to lure somehow, maybe not even knowing what all was about to happen. The possibility of dna belonging to more than one person could be used as blackmail in a sequence of events. Want to inform on someone else when your semen/dna is found on a dead girls panties? Not likely. If that girl was tortured in front of you as a last reminder. You or your family are next, well you get the point.

The Police have never acted properly in this case from start to finish. It is as big a factor in what happened as any other. That aspect has to be considered and an attempt made to fit it in as well as all the other pieces. This is a strange and bizarre piece for most to contemplate. I am just pointing out some of the tenuous connections between some of the more negligible pieces.

Just because we cannot understand what happened or why someone would do something, it’s still worth leaving as possibility #6 or whatever you wish to call it. As time goes on maybe more will be added or taken away from these potential suspects. In the end, you still have to ask, why have the Police dropped the ball each and every time. From the first to the last, they do not seem to want this to be solved for some reason imo. They abruptly terminated the investigation after GPM’s acquittal. So back to that crossroads beside the store immediately preceding suspicions on GPM. Where were they headed in the investigation? What happened with that? Why? For who?

Damage to the body means something to someone. I doubt the inexperienced hunter and note the missing organs. If not animal activity, this is another very bizarre aspect with few similarities to be found anywhere except in near satanic sacrificial ceremony. Going along with the multiple knife cuts, mutilation etc.. What was done pre or postmorton torture etc, may provide some answers if there was some definitive means of knowing. Not sure that was ever achieved.

I am merely using this as an overt example. Albeit a very strange one. There are things we may not be able to entertain simply because it is out of our sphere of knowledge but it may not be out of the killers. He did not think or operate as you or I. What happened may be even more bizarre than most anything we can imagine. Whoever did this was not your usual suspect even amongst killers. imo
 
Dedpanman - on Al and Bill Mack -

The only thoughts I have had on these two are, the older brother Bill may have failed his polygraph due to lying about previous acts with Christine that he adamantly denied but his brother said happened.

Attending school on 3 October 1984 then driving to Queensville for the purpose of abducting Christine? Why that day? Did they know she would be alone that afternoon and they would have ample opportunity to abduct her unseen? Did they drive there for the purpose of abducting her regardless of who was at the Jessop home around 4:00 pm? Why did they have to drive 50 kms? Why did they want to tear her apart? If she was going to talk about what had happened between this group, why not just kill her?

Since I can't reasonably answer these questions, I have to doubt their involvement. Jmo. I also think Tweedy would have gone to the trouble of comparing their DNA when he had the chance.

I agree on all points.
 
On Uncle Hector - he does fade out in RR and I only have questions regarding him.

Why was Bob cleaning out Uncle Hector's garage when Christine was a missing person?

Was Uncle Hector sure of finding Christine alone on 3 October 1984 at about 4:00 pm if he drove to Queensville? Somehow I doubt it. Jmo.

Just to clarify - Bob was cleaning out the Jessop's garage and found the "map".
 
Thanks Dedpanman - Bob was cleaning his own garage and found the map.
 
And.. in regard to the other suspect, the man who disappeared only known as WS. The van was confiscated but the man never found? He just disappeared? That sounds rather strange as well. How hard did they look? When they can't even refer to the guy by a proper name, I doubt the search was adequate.

One point that gets mentioned fairly often when there are crimes like this is that the perp will progress and not be satisfied and stop at one victim. The tv version of the psychology says its like being a drug addict and they need another fix. There should be more similar crimes and the perp should be able to be tracked by that. So any possible suspects mentioned should be looked at in that regard as well. From what I can gather, WP is the only one who has not been followed up on to any demonstrable degree. Why?
 
Source: Attention returns to 3 suspects Police say they'll look at theories all over again
Toronto Star - Toronto, Ont.
Author: By Nicolaas van Rijn TORONTO STAR
Date: Jan 24, 1995


Do we know now who WP is?

I believe that "WP" is called "Brad Foster" (pseudonym) by Kirk Makin in the book, Redrum: The Innocent. Real name is unknown to me.
 
Had to search for a couple of dates chinacat67. Page 39 of RR.

A York Region detective spoke to Ida Morin on Saturday, 6 October 1984. Ida mentioned her daughter Yvette may have seen something that could help.

'Yvette Devine arrived at the Command Post later in the day (6 October). ... Devine had arrived at her parents' house at about 3:00 pm (3 October). Within forty-five minutes, the dogs had started jumping around and barking. ... "I seen a car sitting there, it was on the shoulder and facing south. The colour of the car was like an off-colour eggshell - between beige and cream'. A few minutes later, Devine said, her husband had arrived. She had promptly forgotten all about the white car.

Page 74 of RR - this is after Christine's body had been found.

Yvette Devine was nervous as she awaited her hypnosis session with Dr George Matheson, chief of psychology at Etobicoke General Hospital.

....

The session lasted an hour. Privately, Matheson was nonplussed. He reported a mixed success to investigators. "About fifty percent of what she says about the vehicle and its occupants is accurate. As for the female in the car, that may well be false. I suspect she really did see a woman in the car on September 22, but she now seems to be merging information like that into the October 3 incident."
How he knew all this was not clear.

Later on in RR there is a problem with Yvette's recollection - will find the page later. Yvette's recollection of the cream coloured car revolves around the time her son was in the hospital. The dates and her recollection do not match under that scrutiny.

I don't know what Yvette saw or didn't see on 3 October. I also don't know where Makin got his detailed info and why Kaufman leaves out so much surrounding this reported sighting. Kaufman makes it sound that there was never any doubt about this sighting.
 
There is very little info available on the possibility of two attackers. Dr Edward Blake brings it up, but Tweedy never seemed to follow that lead. Tweedy took over the investigation when GPM was exonerated.
 
Dedpanman - regarding the picture on the cover of the 1998 edition of RR. Wish I knew what the structure depicted is.

To me it looks like a brick fireplace with chimney for an outdoor fire. My sister once had a structure on her deck that looks much like the one in the picture - it was for safety. No embers flying around etc and easy to extinguish.
 
On the cover of the 1998 “New Edition” of Redrum: The Innocent by Kirk Makin (the edition that I have), down at the bottom of the cover, is what appears to be a grainy photograph of the Sunderland body disposal site. (But, maybe it’s not…?)

Whoever took the photo could be standing at the edge of the farmer’s field facing north (facing Brock Concession Rd 4).

Or, is this photo taken from the edge of Brock Concession Rd 4 facing south - looking down the tractor path that leads to the site?

My main question is this: To the right of the picture is a tall standing object with a door...

What is that object?

Maybe it's a smokehouse? Is there a photo credit on the book jacket?
 
Deadpanman: email K Makin via the Globe and Mail and ask him what the structure is. He might reply. JMO
 
I don't believe the picture is of the crime scene or that it has any significance. Just a picture, old structure, light and shadow. In the category interesting but ...? Anyone been near the crime scene recently?
 
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