CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

[Mistysues]

Mistysues - Kindly check when the woman came forward with hearing screams - accuracy is important for those that do not know the history.

Can you provide a link that evidence of insect activity on human remains will likely disappear following a snow storm. Bear in mind, Christine was removed before the snowstorm in Sunderland.

I dont believe the storm played a part in hindering the insect activity, I was just giving another perspective. I have already provided info previously in the thread regarding the insect activity and decomp. And in my opinion ;Given the state of decomposition it is unlikely there was evidence of insect activity because the insects would have been long gone.

 

[Dedpanman]

I dont believe the storm played a part in hindering the insect activity, I was just giving another perspective. I have already provided info previously in the thread regarding the insect activity and decomp. And in my opinion ;Given the state of decomposition it is unlikely there was evidence of insect activity because the insects would have been long gone.

What's your opinion on this?

John Ferris, the head of autopsy services at Vancouver General Hospital and a veteran of 650 autopsies in cases of suspected homicide, was retained by the defence (of GPM) to analyse the results of the exhumation.

****
... photographs of the remains revealed no signs of dead insects or their larval shell, as one would expect at a decomposition scene. “It is not a question of a few,” Ferris said. “There should be hundreds.”

 

[SyraKelly]

I have a question-What day did LE interview the owner of the store
Was it the night she went missing or a few days after?

 

[Dedpanman]

I believe her intention was to meet Leslie at the park and that she was either abducted at the park before her friend arrived or as she headed from the store to the other side of the street (on the corner) (this fits with the horwoods description of the blue car sighting and the location of the park) (Yes I do understand that it was the middle of the day and people were around, but think Tori Stafford that was at a very public place (gas station)

I don't understand what you mean about Tori Stafford, could you please clarify?

A number of witnesses saw Tori being led off by Terri-Lynne McClintic after school along the street in question, so her abduction wasn't invisible. (This doesn't count the video footage.)

There was no gas station involved until the abductors stopped in Guelph (at the Home Depot area) to obtain a hammer. Rafferty used the bank machine at the gas station and got a cup of coffee while McClintic purchased the murder weapon.

If, in your scenario, Christine was abducted at the park, how do you factor in Leslie Chipman arriving at the park at approx. 4 pm and no Christine?

How do you factor in the Horwoods driving past the park at approx. 4 pm and not noticing anything out of the ordinary happening there?

Then, at approx. 4 pm, the Horwoods are sitting at the intersection facing west, and they see an eastbound car turn left (north) with a struggling child (Christine in your scenario.)

So... you're thinking that Christine was abducted on the east side of the busy intersection... but no one noticed her getting into the car...?

Until she was inside - and struggled - and suddenly the Horwoods noticed?

I guess it's not impossible...

And please don't think I'm attacking you. I'm not. As far as I'm concerned, most theories regarding this crime don't hold all the water. Some hold more than others...

Just giving yours "the water test".
And still thinking about it.

 

[orora]

When was the witness at the strore interviewed?

Good question. I've wondered about that too but have read that Christine's mother went to the store that same night looking for her. I assumed she spoke to the same person who claimed to have seen Christine earlier. That would help to keep that day straight from another.

re:dedpanman

Just to clarify: I haven't decided anything about this case, and I hope that my posts reflect that. I find some pieces of the puzzle more compelling than others. I have not ruled anything out, I just can't make the Horwood's story work in my mind. I'm not saying that it did not happen, I'm saying that I have issues with it. In terms of C's abduction point, I believe that the house property or the cemetery is the likely contact point between her and the abductor. I use the word "likely". Again, just clarifying.

True and apologies for suggesting otherwise. When the procedure was first discussed to go through all the points begining with victimology then we jumped straight to the suspects. Well next in line would have been the scene of the crime the contact point. Now we are having to entertain that point a bit again in context with everything else being drawn together. It is still a debatable point as to whether it fits in with Christine's disappearance somehow. Maybe even somehow we don't understand yet?

There was a partial description of the driver. I wonder if it is similar to any of the suspects mentioned? And the uncle?

I believe the above reference was to no one saw Tori being pushed into a car. The rest is apples and oranges to use the common out. There were cameras and witnesses everywhere for Tori. Cameras backed up witness reports. For Christine, there were no cameras. For Tori everything looked quite normal to the casusal observer right up til she never made it home. No struggling child seen no nothing. The lack of sightings does not mean it didn't happen. Just may not have happened in the way one might expect? There are no eye witness reports from Christine's home. There are three from the area of the store. Maybe all aren't acurate, maybe some are, maybe none are. Its not an all or nothing thing. imo

 

[Dedpanman]

I think that the perp would have then proceeded north on 7 and dumped clothes/etc washed up in the river that is horizontal to the rd. I then think that the person made it back to Queensville before the large search was underway. I believe that the perp was an acquaintance of the family.

Could you clarify this, too? The perp headed north on 7 after killing her in the Sunderland field? What 7 do you mean? There is a highway 7 out there but it's east/west. Where is the river you're referencing? I'm confused.

 

[Dedpanman]

My point about the Tori Stafford witnesses is that their reports all line up and mesh and were verified by the video. In C's case, people are seeing her all over the place and sometimes she's at diffent places at the same time.

 

[orora]

I believe I have read that at least three of Christine's witnesses were asked to change the times they claimed for the sightings.

Three reported sightings took place on the same corner. All in the distance from the store to the other side of the road. Those sightings were all within a very short period of time. If you have no reason to know the exact time every moment of the day, you have to guess in hindsight. So all three (if any or all were true) may not have happened at the precise time mentioned or in the exact sequence that may indicate. Could Christine go from the store to the corner talk to boys and end up in a car all in say ten nminutes? Not impossible. How is another story.

 

[marikesh]

Is this correct from above?

1. Christine rode her bike to the store and came directly home, put her bike in the shed/garage, picked up her recorder and got into a blue car which had been spotted. The vehicle went north on Leslie to Ravenshoe Road, was spotted with a struggling child, turned around and went south on Leslie to Queensville SR, was spotted again with a struggling child (at 4:05 pm), turned around and went into the Balmoral Subdivision where no one saw it again.

2. Then in 2010 LE compared DNA to a deceased person with DNA from someone they did not know was a non bio relative.

3. What happened with the DNA from the bio son?

Numbers added by me for easier replies.
1. I would imagine that since all those are the words of Ken Jessop, he may have been speculating according to events given by supposed witnesses. I believe we have all seen or heard of cases where there are actual witnesses and then there are those who want to inject themselves into cases and make up stuff ... for self importance I suppose. Some of the stories do sound that way ... eg: accounts given by a Paddy Hester re: Morin. Others don't stand out all that much as made up except possibly to those who were able to actually walk/drive through this area. So all I did was copy and paste Ken's writing account.
2. Yes according to Ken. Lack of insight on the officer.
3. As Ken explained, the bio son was also a pedo so perhaps he did not voluntarily give a specimen or allow one to be taken. It seems to me that Ken was quite hopeful on that DNA swab from that particular person as being the crux of the case. If it was successful, he likely would have printed that as well. I don't have access to his website and have not seen any other or further info on that.

 

[marikesh]

I'm not sure how well that area was searched previously where Christine was found, however I ran across an account in a personal blog named "the walrus and christine jessop" where the lady is reliving her childhood memories of living down the road from where Christine was found. She claims she was approx age 6; may have been younger, when the army asked for help in the search. 2 small children and 2 adults in 2 teams searched an area where there was an old barn/shack, haystack and an old car. That sounds like the area where Christine was eventually found. There was no mention of a qualified SAR overseeing civilian searches. If that is the extent of searching done back then, I can see Christine not being found. Also the fact that a man had walked his dogs in the area ... even if they smelled decomposing material it doesn't mean the dogs would head straight for the area as some dogs quite well obey their master and from experience, I don't allow my dogs near decomposing material on walks in the bushes.

On the other hand ...(quoted from Dedpanman's post)

... photographs of the remains revealed no signs of dead insects or their larval shell, as one would expect at a decomposition scene. “It is not a question of a few,” Ferris said. “There should be hundreds.”

This would mean that Christine was elsewhere before and was moved, imo.

 

[SyraKelly]

I have not given my take on the situation yet so from what I have researched and read I think that the following happened (again this is just my opinion, so be gentle)

-Christine knew her mother would not be home after school, she grabbed the mail put it inside and ran to the store with her recorder. I don't believe she took her bike because you cannot play the recorder and ride a bike and she was thrilled with the new recorder.
- I believe her intention was to meet Leslie at the park and that she was either abducted at the park before her friend arrived or as she headed from the store to the other side of the street (on the corner) (this fits with the horwoods description of the blue car sighting and the location of the park) (Yes I do understand that it was the middle of the day and people were around, but think Tori Stafford that was at a very public place (gas station)
- I believe that the Horwoods did see Christine in the car and I believe that the abductor went directly to the body site and that the wound on her face was caused during the drive to subdue her. The person killed and assaulted her where she was found, which is why the buttons were found near her body and the path.
- I don't believe the abductor planned the situation. I think it was an opportunity that presented itself. I think that the perp would have then proceeded north on 7 and dumped clothes/etc washed up in the river that is horizontal to the rd. I then think that the person made it back to Queensville before the large search was underway. I believe that the perp was an acquaintance of the family.

You literally must have read my mind :what:Wow-I am freaked out right now-I was thinking about all of what you posted while I was lying here trying to take a nap.esp # 1-you can't do both things at once-She at least made it to the store-If LE interviewed him that day or even the next day-he would remember her being in the store-This is an important event happening(a child is missing) and I don't think he would lie about her being in the store-now if he was interviewed 2 wks later-yes-I could maybe believe he would make a mistake about the day.
I also believe she was kidnapped after she left the store-but on the way to the park-I believe it had to be someone she knew-as no one saw her struggling with anyone or heard her screaming.
I believe its someone who probably was a hunter & knew the area where he left her body.I also believe he has been back to that area numerous times over the yrs and has killed again
I would be interested to know if any other crimes like this have happened since..

 

[Mistysues]

Mistysues - Kindly check when the woman came forward with hearing screams - accuracy is important for those that do not know the history.

I stand corrected, the defense was not made aware of the report of the screams until the trial. The woman did not report the incident but rather was found during the routine canvass of the neighbors after the body had been found. Pg 862 of the Kaufman report.

 

[mrs]

This is for the crime scene:
We know that Christine was a tiny female weighing approximately 40 lbs, with little to no body fat. Her remains were found in a cool place, a copse, laying on (partial) bare earth partially skeletonized and mummified.

The Cadaver Decompositon island can be found here http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Aitkenhead_Peterson_2011.pdf

From October 3 1984 until Christine was found 3 months later The temperatures were unusually mild, with a few rain falls. The first rain fall occurred 15 days after Christine went missing with 1.00 CM of rain. The highs for October were up to 17C with the low’s being -1.0C. For November the high was 15.1 with low’s being -13.3C For December the high being -1.8C and the lowest being -14.1C. For December 31 1984 the day time temp -1.0 dropping to -6.5C overnight.

Barrie temperatures were used since Queensville Ont is not in the data base. The link is below.

http://www.almanac.com/weather/history/ON/Barrie/1984-10-10

Taking into consideration for a human body to decompose are:
 Temperature;
 The availability of oxygen;
 Prior embalming;
 Cause of death;
 Burial, depth of burial, and soil type;
 Access by scavengers;
 Trauma, including wounds and crushing blows;
 Humidity, or wetness;
 Rainfall;
 Body size and weight;
 Clothing;
 The surface on which the body rests;
 Foods/objects inside the specimen's digestive tract (bacon compared to lettuce).

Decomposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One of the most through: A THESIS FOR M.D. (FORENSIC MEDICINE)
GOVT. MEDICAL COLLEGE, PATIALA AKASH DEEP AGGARWAL can be found here, taking into account all the seasons. If anyone has a sensitive nature please forego looking at the pictures. Pages 17 and 70 and 84 are of interest, as is the entire thesis.

http://www.anilaggrawal.com/ij/vol_006_no_002/others/thesis/akash_thesis.pdf

 

[Dedpanman]

Mrs - you're probably better off using temperature and precipitation data from New Market as it's closer in lines of latitude to Sunderland. Barrie is probably too far north for comparative purposes. The New Market data is available online and the link has been posted at least twice somewhere on this thread.

I think you'll find it here somewhere:
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/Welcome_e.html

Unfortunately, you can take any two "experts" on anything and put them in a room together and they won't always agree. That seems to be the case here with all the confusing and conflicting data in the autopsy reports.

BTW... I'm not saying that I disagree with you at all...

Sometimes I'll play devil's advocate in these discussions because I think healthy debate is useful and beneficial.

 

[Woodland]

For accuracy of the known events, post #543 - no one that claimed to have seen Christine that afternoon has ever claimed they were asked to change the time they reported seeing her. Nor did they do so.

Only Janet and Ken Jessop claim to have been coerced by LE into changing the time they arrived home that day from 4:10 to 4:30 or 4:35 pm.

 

[Woodland]

For accuracy in post #545 - Sunderland was never searched while Christine was missing between 3 October and 31 December 1984.

In the blog mentioned, the person says in their blog they lived in Queensville at the time Christine went missing.

 

[Woodland]

What we don't seem to have is any reference in any report that there was insect activity found on Christine's remains. Only a couple of reports that there should have been some insect activity if she was left lying outside in Sunderland from the early fall.

 

[Dedpanman]

What we don't seem to have is any reference in any report that there was insect activity found on Christine's remains. Only a couple of reports that there should have been some insect activity if she was left lying outside in Sunderland from the early fall.

The only suggestion is the erroneous "frozen maggots" detail that Makin brings to his story and there's no mention of that again anywhere... So I think that detail can be dismissed.

 

[marikesh]

For accuracy in post #545 - Sunderland was never searched while Christine was missing between 3 October and 31 December 1984.

In the blog mentioned, the person says in their blog they lived in Queensville at the time Christine went missing.

Ooops, duly noted. I got carried away in thought, however I do admit to making the mistake as I always admit when I am wrong.

 

[marikesh]

I'm not sure how well that area was searched previously where Christine was found, however I ran across an account in a personal blog named "the walrus and christine jessop" where the lady is reliving her childhood memories of living down the road from where Christine was found. She claims she was approx age 6; may have been younger, when the army asked for help in the search. 2 small children and 2 adults in 2 teams searched an area where there was an old barn/shack, haystack and an old car. That sounds like the area where Christine was eventually found. There was no mention of a qualified SAR overseeing civilian searches. If that is the extent of searching done back then, I can see Christine not being found. Also the fact that a man had walked his dogs in the area ... even if they smelled decomposing material it doesn't mean the dogs would head straight for the area as some dogs quite well obey their master and from experience, I don't allow my dogs near decomposing material on walks in the bushes.

On the other hand ...(quoted from Dedpanman's post)



This would mean that Christine was elsewhere before and was moved, imo.

I can't make changes to this for some reason so I am quoting to do so.

1. The search talked about here was not in Sunderland ... my mistake. This one talks of the civilian search in Queensville. (Still if kids were involved in the search without proper guidance ...anywhere ... what does that say about the whole search?)
2. Changing my opinion on the quote. I don't believe now that Christine was moved after death.