CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back on post #329, I wrote:

Do you think that if Christine had never been sexually exploited before the family’s move to Queensville, this crime would have occurred?

The answer(s) to that question (both yes or no) are potentially powerful lines of thought. To phrase the question another way: Did her sexual exploitation put her at a higher risk, and if so, why? How?

I shall attempt an answer now to my own question -- and this will require speculation, but I’ll try to keep it logical.

News of Christine’s sexual exploitation in Richmond Hill by the brothers may have travelled along a “grapevine” to the person who would end up abducting her. This person may have been on the peripherals, or the outer most orbit of that particular “sphere of danger”. This person could have been a friend of a friend of one of the brothers (or, some such person)… and may have learned of Christine’s compliance with older males. This could have fuelled a sick fantasy involving “his turn” with her.

Makin suggests rather explicitly in “Redrum” that Christine’s sexual experiences with the older boys may have altered her behaviour in certain ways -- that she knowingly or unknowingly sent off false signals of maturity (he writes specifically of Christine’s apparent interest in older men) and knowledge about sex beyond her years.

If Christine was in the park, or the fire hall, or some other place where there were males, she may have given off these false signals of maturity and this could have ignited the interest of the perpetrator. Some research studies suggest that some abductors are able to hone in on children with low self esteem and victims of sexual abuse. Did this happen in Christine’s case? Perhaps.

I'm a bit behind on the discussion. :) I do believe the above, but I have nothing tangible to add to support this. I sense there are/were a lot of things going on behind closed doors that were never spoken about, thus explaining Bob Jessop's sad comment.
 
Has this person been discussed in Makin's book or in the media at all? Who is it, without naming them?

Matou, Google the "Kaufman report +Horwood" and you'll find the inquiry's findings about this situation and why it wasn't given Much sway. I do not believe that they were able.to get the license plate number.
 
See post #329 click on the link, page down to 656 and you will find the answer's to your questions. There was a description of the vehicle, partial plate number but not run through the vehicle data bank.


I remember reading about this and a car driving north makes sense if CJ was in the car. The very dirty car makes sense to me too since I feel the perp drove around a lot in the country and dirt roads, and likely knew the back roads very well. So who had a car like that? Was it an older model Buick or a newer model for that time? No license plate info either, I guess. Was the only description "a man" or was there anything else e.g. moustache, glasses, baseball cap, etc.
 
The fact that CJ was found so many kilometers away is also unusual to me. It occurred with Tori Stafford as well. I've read that the body of a murder victim is usually found within a 10 mile radius of the initial contact site (or even less than that) . I will try to find a source for that statement.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules concerning the relationship between the disposal site and the abduction site, but would still be interested to know your source for that.
 
It makes sense the car would be driving north on Leslie say to Hwy 32, but it doesn't make sense where the car was coming from. The car was heading east TOWARD the store and park, and it turned north where it would pass her house and the cemetery. If it was CJ, then why would the perp drive a loop around and risk being seen again? If it was CJ, then where was she picked up and how did she get to that spot so quickly?

Unless it wasn't her, and it was another kid/parent or a couple of people horsing around. The timing is pretty coincidental, given the small window. Do we know when the Horwoods called it in? Was it before or after they knew CJ was missing? Too bad it wasn't acted upon more quickly.

The Horwoods didn't report their "story" until a few days after the abduction. Their story doesn't hold much water in my books. The car they saw is coming from the wrong direction to be involved. The car went north on Leslie, but turned left and they supposedly followed it -- but lost it in the Balmoral Heights area. And if you're one of the people who believe that Christine was at the store at 4 pm that day, the Horwoods are waiting at the intersection right outside the store at approximately the same time (4 pm) when they "saw" the car.
 
SUSPECTS: “AL and BILL MACK” (pseudonyms)


From the Redrum: The Innocent:
(point form notes from pgs 353-360, notes rearranged for clarity)

- When the Jessops lived in Richmond Hill (prior to moving to Queensville), Ken was in dire need of friends
- He gravitated towards Al who was his age
- They began to experiment (sexually)
- The sex “games” accelerated when Al’s brother Bill came on the scene
- Bill was three and a half years older than Ken
- Ken and the two brothers engaged in regular sexual activity for years in Richmond Hill preceding Christine’s death
- Bill would use Al as an emissary to negotiate sex acts from Ken in exchange for him (Bill) playing road hockey with them
- Bill had “magazines”
- Bill instructed them that what they were doing was normal but to keep it a secret
- Christine became involved when she was approximately four years old
- Ken, Al, and Christine would engage in sex-acts together in a basement
- Ken, Christine and Al had been naïve, willing sex slaves for Bill
- Ken implied that the sexual activity stopped shortly before the Jessop’s moved to Queensville – a year before her abduction
- When Ken began getting sex education in school, he realized what they were doing was wrong
- Ken had a falling out with Bill and said he never wanted him to come visit them in Queensville
- Al visited the Jessops in Queensville several times
- Al also visited after Christine disappeared, including her funeral
- Al got “tipsy” at the reception after the funeral
- When police finally paid a visit to Al and Bill Mack in 1990 (after Ken confessed), both were established in middle-class lives and Bill was married
- Al initially downplayed the sexual activity but eventually admitted that fifteen episodes of sexual activity occurred in Queensville (Ken would adamantly deny this)
- According to Al, at least some of this activity took place behind the cemetery embankment
- Bill Mack was the only one of the group who had a driver’s licence in 1984 (the killer would need a car to take Christine’s body so far away)
- When interviewed by the police, Bill took a hard line and admitted almost nothing
- Bill claimed the Jessops were Al’s friends and that he rarely saw them
- He admitted to some sexual activity with Ken in a fort out in the fields (in Richmond Hill), but not with Christine and not with Al
- Bill said he didn’t have anything to do with Christine (sexually)
- Bill took a polygraph – the first test was inconclusive
- The second test he failed outright
- Bill remained adamant that he and Christine had not engaged in sexual activity
- Records confirmed that Al and Bill Mack had attended their school several kilometres away from Queensville the day Christine was abducted
- However, leaving school early or leaving at 3 pm dismissal would still allow them time to commit the abduction
 
A general point.. prior to anyone else discovering this thread, the first two posters who started this thread have already decided the scene of the abduction was at Cj's home or cemetery. The car with the struggling child etc have pretty well been ruled out as a result. There seems no combination of events and actions which would tie any of the witnesses and previously reported sightings together. Or so it would seem. In reality no one knows what happened, all we know is that it was successful.

Christine's past may have come back into play again in the end. A vehicle used in a crime like this will be heavily advertised and sought out if noticed by anyone. Bringing it right up to Christine's residence may have been a bit too risky if this was a planned thing. Where else would you park it? Christine had a regular route to the store and back daily. Dirt is one of the best disguises a perp could use on a get away vehicle in this sort of situation. Obscures color and individual markings and is pretty effective at hiding licence plate numbers. The Horwood vehicle sighting claimed a struggling child attracting attention followed by the vehicle pulling off the main road. Christine was found with damage from a massive blow to the head. Silenced from that point on no doubt. Why a blow like that in conjunction with the rest of the injuries? Which came first?

No, I am not trying to put "all" the events together, just pointing out a few congruencies to consider in other ways before narrowing down to any pre set parameters.

There was a pretty good description of the Horwood sighting posted here - its well worth the read. (interesting details) I learned for the first time that Christine's bike had been fingerprinted that very night. I learned that the Horwoods had not been interviewed for a considerable amount of time later. I learned both Mr. and Mrs. had individual accounts with varying detail. Two witnesses. Descriptions of both the driver and the vehicle. Before totally writing off what may be the one and only sighting, perhaps we should leave it as a possibility should if and when as other factors warrant.
from- post 329
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8295001&postcount=329


http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/morin/morin_ch4.pdf
 
Is this correct from above?

Christine rode her bike to the store and came directly home, put her bike in the shed/garage, picked up her recorder and got into a blue car which had been spotted. The vehicle went north on Leslie to Ravenshoe Road, was spotted with a struggling child, turned around and went south on Leslie to Queensville SR, was spotted again with a struggling child (at 4:05 pm), turned around and went into the Balmoral Subdivision where no one saw it again.

Then in 2010 LE compared DNA to a deceased person with DNA from someone they did not know was a non bio relative.

What happened with the DNA from the bio son?
 
the first two posters who started this thread have already decided the scene of the abduction was at Cj's home or cemetery. The car with the struggling child etc have pretty well been ruled out as a result.

Just to clarify: I haven't decided anything about this case, and I hope that my posts reflect that. I find some pieces of the puzzle more compelling than others. I have not ruled anything out, I just can't make the Horwood's story work in my mind. I'm not saying that it did not happen, I'm saying that I have issues with it. In terms of C's abduction point, I believe that the house property or the cemetery is the likely contact point between her and the abductor. I use the word "likely". Again, just clarifying.
 
Is this correct from above?

Christine rode her bike to the store and came directly home, put her bike in the shed/garage, picked up her recorder and got into a blue car which had been spotted. The vehicle went north on Leslie to Ravenshoe Road, was spotted with a struggling child, turned around and went south on Leslie to Queensville SR, was spotted again with a struggling child (at 4:05 pm), turned around and went into the Balmoral Subdivision where no one saw it again.

Then in 2010 LE compared DNA to a deceased person with DNA from someone they did not know was a non bio relative.

What happened with the DNA from the bio son?

Chapter 4 of the Kaufman report pg 657;

The Buick went North on Leslie, turned onto Fieldstone Lane (There was no turn around). The first sighting was at 4:05, in which they proceeded to follow the Buick North on Leslie and followed onto Fieldstone, where they lost the car.

On the Facebook Site Ken reported that the LE realized their error after he brought it up and that the Bio son was being tested, although there was no update as to whether this happened or not.
 
If we’re done debating DNA for a while (and I don’t think we’ve seen the last of it, but that’s okay), maybe we could return to discussing suspects?

I did the suspect profile for Mr. T… can we divide up the duties of consolidating info from RR and KR…? (Not all are mentioned in KR, by the way…)

There’s still (and these are pseudonyms from RR):

Philip Brennan

Al and Bill/Bob Mack (the brothers from Richmond Hill who sexually exploited K and C Jessop – and by the way – in Makin’s “List of Characters” at the beginning, the older brother is referred to as “Bob” Mack, but later in the book when these brothers are written about, the older brother is referred to as “Bill” Mack.)

“Uncle” Hector Drummond

Brad Foster

WPS – Woodland...?

Not telling anyone what to do, just offering some direction.

Hey Dedpanman, What can you tell us about "Uncle" Hector Drummond?
 
I don't think there are any hard and fast rules concerning the relationship between the disposal site and the abduction site, but would still be interested to know your source for that.

I Think that Matou is referring to this see bold

Source; Criminal Investigation Pg. 343
By Wayne W. Bennett, Kären M. Hess, Christine M. H. Orthmann

Key Points;

-Abduction of a child under 18 years of age by a stranger is very rare
-A little under half of the children are murdered within 1 hour of being abducted
-Three quarters are often killed within three hours, 9 out of 10 are often killed within 24 hrs.
-the initial contact site is usually within a quarter mile or 3 city blocks of the victims last known location, a third of the time it is within a quarter mile of the suspects residence
-the majority of abducted child victims are killed within 200 feet of the body recovery site

Other Interesting Info Relevant here from the National Missing Children Services National Police Service RCMP Titled The abduction of Children by Strangers in Canada Nature and Scope by Marlene L Dalley Ph.D

Key Points-
- Stranger abduction very rare
-abductors generally male and tend to target victims within their own ethnic group
-the majority of child abductors who murder their victims have a history of violence, in the US 60% have prior arrests for violent crimes
- Two thirds of killers who were strangers had committed prior crimes against children
- 41% of the child abduction killers who were friends and acquaintances of the victim had committed crimes against other children.
-contrary to popular belief child killers are on average age 27 Caucasian male, 85% are unmarried, half live alone or with parents, half are unemployed, they have a history of sexual, alcohol, drug and mental health issues, two thirds have been arrested for violent crimes and slightly half of these prior crimes against children, many move or change residence often.

*The relationship between the offender and victim seems to change with the age of the child. Family members and acquaintances often abduct younger children, up to 7 years of age. While strangers tend to abduct school age victims.
-younger females 1-5 in age tend to be killed by friends or acquaintances while older females tend to be killed by strangers.
- researchers suggest that children from "dysfunctional family and who may already be victim of sexual or physical abuse are prime abduction targets.

-Bodies of those abducted are most often found in a rural area, usually at a site greater than one and a half miles from the victims home.

-Child sexual homicide can be related to 3 types of deadly force
1. inadvertent - not intentional
2. indiscriminate - may or may not choose a child victim
3. (MOST COMMON) To avoid detection

1997 stats
44% of murdered children were dead in less than an hour
74% were dead within the first 3 hrs and 91% within first 24 hrs.
 
So a blue car, Buick or otherwise, was never seen at Ravenshoe Road with a struggling child prior to the Horwood's sighting at Queensville SR?

If it's correct the person suspected of driving that vehicle got home 4 hours late from work, then is Neale Tweedy incorrect Christine was still alive around midnight that day as a neighbour heard her screaming from the site in Sunderland?

Was there insect activity after all on the remains?

There is a lot on WPS - hoping to hear more on other suspects for now.

Correct. To my knowledge there was no sighting at Ravenshoe Rd.

Neale Tweedy and the neighbors screams - in my opinion the neighbors were unable to hear Christine as I believe that she was killed within the first few hours. Given the location of the body site and the location of the neighbors plus the forestry I doubt they would have heard anything. Also it wasn't until the second trial that the woman came forward stating she heard screams, so it is still debatable as to whether it was fact or not.
 
So a blue car, Buick or otherwise, was never seen at Ravenshoe Road with a struggling child prior to the Horwood's sighting at Queensville SR?

If it's correct the person suspected of driving that vehicle got home 4 hours late from work, then is Neale Tweedy incorrect Christine was still alive around midnight that day as a neighbour heard her screaming from the site in Sunderland?

Was there insect activity after all on the remains?

There is a lot on WPS - hoping to hear more on other suspects for now.

Given the state of decomposition it is unlikely there was evidence of insect activity because the insects would have been long gone.

Playing devils advocate it is possible there was some activity, but the night Christine's body was found, Queensville was dumped on with 9 inches of snow and a severe storm. So whether there would have been visible signs of insect activity is anyone's guess. To my knowledge it wasn't documented in the first autopsy or in any reports.
 
Mistysues - Kindly check when the woman came forward with hearing screams - accuracy is important for those that do not know the history.

Can you provide a link that evidence of insect activity on human remains will likely disappear following a snow storm. Bear in mind, Christine was removed before the snowstorm in Sunderland.
 
I have not given my take on the situation yet so from what I have researched and read I think that the following happened (again this is just my opinion, so be gentle)

-Christine knew her mother would not be home after school, she grabbed the mail put it inside and ran to the store with her recorder. I don't believe she took her bike because you cannot play the recorder and ride a bike and she was thrilled with the new recorder.
- I believe her intention was to meet Leslie at the park and that she was either abducted at the park before her friend arrived or as she headed from the store to the other side of the street (on the corner) (this fits with the horwoods description of the blue car sighting and the location of the park) (Yes I do understand that it was the middle of the day and people were around, but think Tori Stafford that was at a very public place (gas station)
- I believe that the Horwoods did see Christine in the car and I believe that the abductor went directly to the body site and that the wound on her face was caused during the drive to subdue her. The person killed and assaulted her where she was found, which is why the buttons were found near her body and the path.
- I don't believe the abductor planned the situation. I think it was an opportunity that presented itself. I think that the perp would have then proceeded north on 7 and dumped clothes/etc washed up in the river that is horizontal to the rd. I then think that the person made it back to Queensville before the large search was underway. I believe that the perp was an acquaintance of the family.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
139
Guests online
1,860
Total visitors
1,999

Forum statistics

Threads
606,017
Messages
18,197,156
Members
233,710
Latest member
csiapril77
Back
Top