CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

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The original paper, as opposed to article, gives the name of the tests used - Amplitype HLA DQ Alpha and PM PCR Amplification and typing kits.

Posted earlier was the profile produced -

DQA1, 1.2/3; LDLR, BB; GYPA, BB; HBGG, AB; D7S8, BB, GC, AC.

Why not try to find a random PCR-STR profile and compare the markers used?
 
Another question to ask is, why was Neale Tweedy 'bleeding people' (his words) instead of taking a mouth swab?

PCR-STR tests allow for a mouth swab to be used to produce a profile and for the DNA to be copied.

HLA and RFLP tests did not have this ability.

Apples and oranges.

In order to serve Christine, it's imperative, imo, to step back in time to what was available then.
 
That is a better accounting for the current misunderstanding. thnz

Another question to ask is, why was Neale Tweedy 'bleeding people' (his words) instead of taking a mouth swab?

PCR-STR tests allow for a mouth swab to be used to produce a profile and for the DNA to be copied.

HLA and RFLP tests did not have this ability.

Apples and oranges.

In order to serve Christine, it's imperative, imo, to step back in time to what was available then.
I alluded to this being somewhat true previously. post 397
In 1995 when GPM was compared against the then newly retested dna, that newer profile is compatable with the newer data base. That is my understanding.

What may not be comparable is the dna taken and tested(if it was) from suspects prior to 1995. That is not comparable with the new data base.

That is my understanding. The names of all the tests and the the types of profiles developed can be traced and verified.
Woodland-
it's imperative, imo, to step back in time to what was available then.
Tweady collected poi samples for comparison against the suspect dna back then using the older testing system available at the time. Employed a finger prick and bleeding. Apples were compared to apples in the old rflp dna testing system.

Then- a newer PCR test was performed on the last of the available dna which was succesful. Much more descrimatory and able to be compared against a modern database. "The apple" (the killers dna) was turned into an orange at that time and was able to be compared against the other oranges in the new pcr based system.

so this is really of no consequence. imo
PCR-STR tests allow for a mouth swab to be used to produce a profile and for the DNA to be copied.

HLA and RFLP tests did not have this ability.
pcr tests can be performed on any substance derived from any source. Saliva , blood semen etc..You could perform the pcr test on the same source substance used in the rflp tests. Its the source of dna that is the determinate factor in the overall results. Rflp required and used up far more source dna than pcr testing. The newer pcr tests target more specific markers than the older rflp tests. You cannot easily compare the two but in this case we have both apples and oranges to compare against both apples and oranges. so to speak. Sorry just trying to use the same terminology. Modern testing could even unscramble the mixed contaminated dna that caused all this trouble and necessitated the new tests.
from an earlier post-

DNA EVIDENCE IN THE CHRISTINE JESSOP HOMICIDE CASE
J.S. WAYE, E.T. BLAKE, J.M. WILLIAMSON and D.H. BI
DNA tests conducted in 1995 led to the exoneration of Guy Paul Morin for the 1984 sex-slaying of nine-year-old Christine Jessop. This paper provides an overview of the DNA tests conducted in the case, up to and including those that excluded Guy Paul Morin as a possible source of spermatozoa found on the deceased's underwear. Previous attempts to derive a DNA profile for the spermatozoa were hampered by a potent inhibitor of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). PCR inhibition was eventually overcome by pretreating the samples with thiopropyl Sepharose 6B beads and supplementing the PCR with bovine serum albumin (BSA) and additional Taq polymerase. This strategy may prove useful for other cases in which PCR amplification is inhibited.
 
Sorry, you don't seem to have absorbed it all orora. It was not a PCR test - it partly used the new PCR technology to enhance a degraded sample - which doesn't matter.

The DNA databank used PCR-STR. Even Mistysues tells you that.
 
The original paper, as opposed to article, gives the name of the tests used - Amplitype HLA DQ Alpha and PM PCR Amplification and typing kits.

Posted earlier was the profile produced -

DQA1, 1.2/3; LDLR, BB; GYPA, BB; HBGG, AB; D7S8, BB, GC, AC.

Why not try to find a random PCR-STR profile and compare the markers used?

Ok I apologize for the mistake and misunderstanding. I have now read and reread and could not find anything stating that the tests done in 1995 that are in the databank cannot be used with the new system. For cold cases that would be a step backward if there was no possible way to link.
The numbers you have mentioned above starting with DQA1 are the numbers you accidentally were able to download a few years ago when you managed to get into "the back door" of a lab and you sent this info to the police as well as kept a copy for yourself. I am impressed. The only back door I can get into is my own.
 
OK, I'm beginning to see the problem.

Sorry, you don't seem to have absorbed it all orora. It was not a PCR test - it partly used the new PCR technology to enhance a degraded sample - which doesn't matter.

Did not the Police say they have a profile that has not yet produced a match from within the data base? I'm paraphrasing but did they not say they still hope to find a match but that would require the killers dna to show up in the system as a result of some other crime?
 
'They did not say that'. One guy said it. The same guy that said she was taken directly to Sunderland, kept alive until midnight (I went back and reread that in RR) and then killed there. With no insect activity to back that up three months later.

Go back and read it - my repeating it will not help the comprehension.

Edit for clarification - one guy said it to only one other guy. The other guy made it public.
 
Dedpanman - the tide might be out for a while - wanna get back to what you were saying?
 
Sorry, you don't seem to have absorbed it all orora. It was not a PCR test - it partly used the new PCR technology to enhance a degraded sample - which doesn't matter.

The DNA databank used PCR-STR. Even Mistysues tells you that.

It was a PCR test. DR. ED Blake agrend to doing the David Milgaurd test BASED on the results with GPM. Orora's explanation is correct.

Woodland quoting you from before, sometimes We are wrong and we have to accept that. :) I have some great docs I will upload when I get a chance tomorrow when I am not on mobile.
 
Is there a possibility for another thread just on the DNA problems? Perhaps Mistysues could head that since she/he is involved in deeper studies on the subject??
Not trying to be argumentive, however Woodland, when you are put on a spot you ignore and want to get back to something else without clarifying. There is a reason some of us are confused and it's this interchange of who is not comprehending.
A thread on cold case DNA may solve the problem and keep this thread going for the filters mentioned previously.
In the meantime I will take the links and go home to my playbox and review, even if I have to swim against the tide that is out.
 
I have explained all I can on the DNA - I did not shy away from any of it. I am walking away from repeating it.

Is someone opposed to starting a thread on the DNA aspect for Christine Jessop?
 
The dna stuff has importance to many cold cases, not just here. Interpretation can be a problem for many reasons. When Milgaard dna was retested, based on CJ, a new suspect was found and convicted based on the new dna results. However that all came together, it was successful. We hope for the same.

There are many ways to look at and interpret the same information to non professionals. This may be something that may have to be left to them. For me, I can sort of understand both sides if your intention is to do that. I have made some assumptions that I base some interpretations on that I deem valid but others have a different way of looking at the same. I have tried to explain my reasoning from the apples and oranges perspective but that is maybe not the best analogy the deeper you look.


The "one guy" in that article provided the only information I read on the subject of dna compliance. It seemed to suggest at least partially that the killers dna profile was compatable with the modern system. I didn't see anywhere else where it was said it wasn't. (except here) Which if true, meant one thing, if not could mean another. We just want to know whether the killer's dna can be and is being tested against the current system or not.

For sake of argument, it is correct- pcr str could reproduce any markers tested for. There is standardised pcr testing today for standardised markers. It was the latest in advancement circa 1995. Test kits are mainly of this variety now. The latest markers could have been tested for back then but were they? The newer markers provide much more accurate results but if the purpose of the test was just to test GPM only, the newer markers were not necessary. A custom pcr test could be set to test any particular markers desired. If the last of the dna was used for the final test, one would "assume" all the test data available would have been sought and gleaned from the last remaining sample. It would not take any more dna than they had. (the beauty of pcr str) It would almost be irresponsible not to test for everything possible imo.. but I assume that ...maybe there is a pattern of this sort of thing happening with evidence in this case and it shouldn't be so surprising.

The same markers listed here are listed in almost all pcr based dna population tests everywhere. Seems very very common. At least, any new poi dna sample should be able to be tested and compared against the same.

from 2002- general population sequencing markers-
Abstract- comparisons with odds of frequencies are listed for each marker-

http://www.uni-duesseldorf.de/WWW/MedFak/Serology/DNA-Systeme/polymarker.html

Perhaps GPM's lawyer or association for the wrongfully convicted etc may be a better source of information on this topic than Police or foi. I should think they would have been quite interested and have records. Is the dna profile listed here accurate? It was apparently deleted almost immediately from the original source location? How was it recorded? So although it may be true it is not admissable without external verification anyway. Not much you can do with this as is except privately and individually if required. I believe we all "hope" it is not down to that.

Without modern dna compatability, the avenues of pursuit available end rather abruptly. Some of the sentiment expressed here reflects that thought.
 
Shouldn't this be on the new DNA thread orora? There is going to be a new thread right?
 
You posted info otherwise Mistysues. Let's get on with discussing Christine - the thread was meant to be about her.

Where is the info I posted that says otherwise? Any idea when you can scan the rcmp email? OR even a study that shows all the stuff you are saying is true in regards to the DNA?
 
The article I refer to was attached by Mistysues in their post #372. Written by Thomas Curran in September 1997 - BP443E - the Library of Parliament Reference.

Here it is again -

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/researchpublications/bp443-e.pdf

See page 12 -

'The standard forensic-DNA typing technology initially used in Canada was the RFLP technology; this is now being replaced by the newer PCR/STR (polymerase chain reaction/short tandem repeat) technology. As of May 1997, the RCMP's Central Forensic Laboratory in Ottawa, as well as laboratories in Regina and Vancouver, had converted to PCR/STR from RFLP; the RCMP laboratories in Halifax and Edmonton were still using the RFLP technology; and the Winnipeg laboratory was using both technologies. Full conversion of the RCMP forensic laboratory system to PCR/STR analysis is expected to be completed in early 1998. The Centre for Forensic Sciences in Toronto also uses the PCR/STR technology.'

Curran does not discuss labs in the US.
Is the confusion because this says Canada did not convert until 1998? The test was done in the states not at the RCMP lab.
 
Woodland-
Shouldn't this be on the new DNA thread orora? There is going to be a new thread right?

Is there? The particulars of the dna discussion going on here is really only relevant here. Woodland is really the only one saying the dna pcr interpretation generally accepted is not true. That the profile created can not be compared to the dna data base. Other cases of the same era with new retested dna from cold cases using pcr tests resulted in dna profiles being entered for comparison within the newly forming data bases.

We are just seeking confirmation and verification in Christine's case in particular. An entire thread devoted to answering that question may not be too helpful. Its up to Woodland if she wants to be involved in that or not. Nowhere else is it likely to be entertained especially amongst professionals. As soon as you have to provide your source and you say you got it off the internet just before it was deleted, and you have no other verification, well it becomes a moot point. You need external verification which may come with a copy of the test results and procedures which would likely answer all the questions anyway at that point. Like trying to prove a negative, we can all be distracted in that endeavour for a very long time. This may be in the cataegory of - interesting but nothing can be done with it.

If you have an email from the RCMP saying otherwise as you claim Woodland, it would seem a good time to play that card. Otherwise, what are we to think???
 
The original paper, as opposed to article, gives the name of the tests used - Amplitype HLA DQ Alpha and PM PCR Amplification and typing kits.

Posted earlier was the profile produced -

DQA1, 1.2/3; LDLR, BB; GYPA, BB; HBGG, AB; D7S8, BB, GC, AC.

Why not try to find a random PCR-STR profile and compare the markers used?

HA! The answer is right there!! We are both right. THEY DID BOTH TESTS!! Can someone Google 23508.pdf +Dr. Ed Blake and post the document. Its about the Milgaurd case but it relates to correspondence from Dr. Blake and shows that the two tests were done.
 
HA! The answer is right there!! We are both right. THEY DID BOTH TESTS!! Can someone Google 23508.pdf +Dr. Ed Blake and post the document. Its about the Milgaurd case but it relates to correspondence from Dr. Blake and shows that the two tests were done.


WHICH would leave me with the understanding that the Profile IS in the database.
 
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