CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

[Wondergirl]

I thought it was interesting that Wondergirl made connections to the Sonia Varaschin and Audrey Gleave cases as well. However, it was the use of patterns that allowed her to do so. When we look for similarities between crimes, we’re really talking about patterns.

I think the Varaschin and Gleave cases may contain useful tidbits that could help us here and we should keep an eye on how they develop because there are some similarities.

And it looks like the Varaschin case is going to hinge on DNA evidence.

BTW – Gleave was stabbed, but cause of death in the Varaschin case has not been revealed. Because of the amount of blood found in her home, many are making the assumption that it was a stabbing (and it may have been).

Some key differences when you compare Varaschin and Gleave to the Jessop case are:

- a child is not involved
- no abduction involved
- murders occurred in the victim’s home

Also: one victim was moved from her house, the other one not.

Gleave’s murder had a confirmed sexual component, Varaschin is unknown. Police have been very tight-lipped about releasing details of the Varaschin case (except the details about the boots – but when that failed to break the case wide open, they have since fallen mute).

I don’t count Varaschin’s killer moving her as an abduction because it’s almost certain she was killed in her home, then moved to the wooded area. A pathetic attempt to “clean up” the crime that was beyond hopeless. Elements of disorganization on the killer’s part (sorry, I do tend to look at criminal behaviour patterns that way – organized vs. disorganized).

Maybe I’m too “inside the box”?
This is why it's useful to have one's thinking challenged here in the thread.

I would like to do more of this kind of thing - searching for other crimes that could be related to the perpetrator we’re hunting. I just find it hard to believe that this person (C's killer) put his knife away and lost all interest in doing things to children. This guy is out there and he’s left a trail. We need to look to the past and find it. Recognize it. Where did he go? What did he do?

And to do so, we must look for patterns…

Did Christine’s killer relocate to another part of the country? “Brad Foster” took off to the east coast for a period of time after he was caught molesting children. He took off again after the accident with the van. Did C’s killer do the same?

Patterns…

Is he still in Ontario, or did he move to another province?

Patterns.

Don't get me wrong - I totally agree about their being patterns within behaviour, but, it can get convoluted, and assuming behaviour A is a pattern, so, therefore, behaviour B must also follow a pattern, and so on, is where it gets murky.

I did make the assumption about Sonia, thank-you for the correction, you are right, COD has not been released. The profile for her killer, is one that would NOT correlate with the killer of Christine, in that Sonia's killer's profile is of a younger man, thereby rendering the perpetrator to young to have committed an act on Christine.

I am glad you brought up the confirmed sexual component to Audrey's murder, as there are some details there, that indicate a rage and mutilation tendency by the perp, perhaps moreso than Sonia's, or perhaps only because we KNOW about it in Audrey's case, where we do NOT know of it in Sonia's.

Wouldn't ViCLAS have correlated the DNA, and circumstances by now, though?

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/tops-opst/bs-sc/viclas-salvac-eng.htm

 

[Dedpanman]

Great question about ViCLAS - I don't know. Somehow this guy has managed to walk between the raindrops and not get wet. Or, he's in the ground feeding worms. Or, he went completely dormant for some reason.

This is part of the mystery.

DNA...? Oh, boy. Here we go again...

 

[Woodland]

You have good points Dedpanman and I can meet you half way - patterns are there whether we see them or not - it has to be why we make connections.

Like Wondergirl eloquently said though - looking for a linear sequence or some other 'tight knit' relevance could be a tripping point for those trying to solve a case. LE or otherwise.

When you asked WG your question I was tempted to post a reminder that Christine's killer had the smarts to place her body in a different jurisdiction than the one she disappeared from. Very smart or just lucky due to some connection to that location? Do people that commit this type of crime become aware that different jurisdictions are their best bet to stay under the radar?

This direction could get very interesting!

 

[Wondergirl]

Also, it is of note, that the amount of blood that was found in Varaschin's home, outside her home (steps), and also on her car, indicate a propensity for moving the victim, despite the injuries and trauma, which could be similar to Jessop's, if she was indeed moved.

Another similarity, between Audrey's case and Christine's case, is that they both lived beside graveyards.

 

[Woodland]

Too cool for school Wondergirl.

 

[jobo]

I just (finally) typed a huge reply, and promptly lost it in cyberspace, how frustrating is that? It said I didn't have permission to post and to log on again. When I did, gone is my post.
I'll try another one shortly....

 

[matou]

So this "Brad" would be 45 or so now. He went to the east coast after he was caught molesting kids? I wonder if this is where he could be now.

I think there are similarities to the disappearance of Cedrika Provencher from Trois Rivieres. She was also with her bicycle and abducted. JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

I just (finally) typed a huge reply, and promptly lost it in cyberspace, how frustrating is that? It said I didn't have permission to post and to log on again. When I did, gone is my post.
I'll try another one shortly....

Jobo, I can empathize with that, it happens to me frequently.

Before I hit submit, if I write a long post, I usually copy with the mouse, then if I have to login and something gets messed up, I can paste my post.

Hope you post your thoughts!

 

[Woodland]

Are you guys logged in when you want to post? If not, that would be a reason to lose a post.

Just a thought.

 

[jobo]

lol...I am not sure what is going on..trying again.

I have been interested in all 3 murders, Christine, Sonia and Audrey. I am sorry, but the only link I see is that they were all accosted at their homes (or very close by if you believe Christine made it to the store).
To me, that speaks of a perp that knew his Victim. Maybe not on a close personal basis, but he knew and targeted her.
A stranger murderer is more apt to attack in a dark park, or a bad date, or a kill a hitchiker. Or these mass shootings that happen.
You have your stalkers, but even then, they target their Victim, one way or another. Like Williams did. They are a stranger to the Victim, but the Victim is no stranger to them. In that case you would expect the killer to continue until caught.
I am not so sure the killer of Sonia and Audrey has continued on.
I am on the fence about the killer of Christine. He, in my eyes, is more likely to continue....or is it because the property in Sunderland switched ownership and now he doesn't have a good spot to go to?
( It is still a very private property, you cannot see much from the road. I didn't see that structure you were all talking about last week, when I was there.)

Has the killer of these 3 females continued on, or stopped? If he stopped then it because he did what he set out to do. He murdered his intended Victim.

 

[jobo]

I didn't want to type another long post and lose it, but I meant to say that I like looking at the geographical aspect but in the cases of Christine, Sonia and Audrey I cannot link them geographically, there is too much distance and too many places between.
I do think there is a link where Christine was taken from and where she was found, though.
I find the Cemetary comment interesting. I wonder if by some chance the Perp has a link to both Cemetarys? Wouldn't that be something?

 

[Dedpanman]

Another similarity, between Audrey's case and Christine's case, is that they both lived beside graveyards.

Cemeteries near houses make for an easy-access location to spy on a potential target. Vehicles can be parked. The driver is free to move around on foot. Gravestones, trees, and bushes make for excellent cover. If questioned, an explanation for one's presence is easy: "I'm here visiting a grave," etc.

The Queensville cemetery affords a perfect view of the old Jessop house and what would have been its backyard in 1984 (now a small parking area).

See attached photo:

 

[Dedpanman]

I think there are similarities to the disappearance of Cedrika Provencher from Trois Rivieres. She was also with her bicycle and abducted. JMO

Cédrika Provencher (from Trois Rivieres, Quebec) disappeared helping a stranger find a missing dog. The stranger was never identified and there was likely no missing pet.

Anthony Stockelman lured Katie Collman (Crothersville, Indiana) into a nearby house with the suggestion of needing her help with a puppy. He raped her, drove her 15 miles out of town to a secluded spot and then drowned her.

What do we know about Christine Jessop? She loved animals.

What ploy might the perpetrator have used to get her to leave her home and come alone into the cemetery? A lost animal in distress? Would Christine think twice before dashing into the cemetery... to her doom?

 

[Chorley8]

While we are roaming between cases I have a question. When police connected Erin Gilmour and Susan Tice I thought they had also connected the DNA to a recent sexual attack on a child in a school in Toronto. However on the cold case video and other info this has disappeared. I thought I was certain of this but may be imagining?

Relevant of course because of the strange pattern of young adult older adult child. Sorry in advance if this is misinformation not information!

 

[Chorley8]

Just to add I am not trying to tie these cases to the ones recently discussed here - just the adult and child victim pattern being suggested here.

 

[Dedpanman]

I am on the fence about the killer of Christine. He, in my eyes, is more likely to continue....or is it because the property in Sunderland switched ownership and now he doesn't have a good spot to go to?

I think, if the guy we're looking for really got off on the experience of raping and killing a little girl, but lost access to his favourite kill-site/disposal site, I don't think that would stop him. Once a disposal site is discovered by police, killers almost never return to that spot. They seek out a new, equally appealing spot to continue doing their thing.

This guy... stopped, or moved on, or moved on and changed his type of victim. Are there examples of killers who start with children and move on to more mature victims (teenagers, adult women)? Can anyone suggest a case(s) where that happened?

 

[Dedpanman]

While we are roaming between cases I have a question. When police connected Erin Gilmour and Susan Tice I thought they had also connected the DNA to a recent sexual attack on a child in a school in Toronto. However on the cold case video and other info this has disappeared. I thought I was certain of this but may be imagining?

Relevant of course because of the strange pattern of young adult older adult child. Sorry in advance if this is misinformation not information!

I'm not aware of a DNA connection between them and a recent attack on a child in Toronto. I know the two were connected by DNA, but that was the last development in those cold cases. Had there been another connection - that would have been big news. However, we seem to be thinking almost the same thing at the same time. I'm considering the idea that C's killer changed to a different location and a different age group. I'm thinking older. You're thinking he might have started off older and moved to a younger victim. Are there any precedents for either scenario?

 

[Chorley8]

Well just beginning to think about this case. I need to read the autopsy report and go back through the thread have read about this case before though.

But a temporary shorcut: does anyone know if there is evidence of flesh from the victim or internal organs being removed from this crime scene or others discussed here recently? It has been hinted at in the AG case of course.

 

[jobo]

I would think the perp thought he was 'home free' after they arrested GPM...and put him in jail for how many years?
So all those years the real perp would not be too worried.

Once GPM was exonerated, the story changes again.

I only know they are looking for the same perp for the murder of S.Fice and E.Gilmore due to DNA connection, but I do not recall any mention of a connection between an attack on a young girl. I believe they looked to see if there was a connection with Williams but that is all I recall.

 

[Woodland]

Dedpanman - Clifford Olsen is a killer that moved from children to adult (18 years) and from male to female.