CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

[Dedpanman]

But a temporary shorcut: does anyone know if there is evidence of flesh from the victim or internal organs being removed from this crime scene or others discussed here recently? It has been hinted at in the AG case of course.

Since Christine's remains were found in an advanced state of decomposition, almost all of the soft tissue was absent. Some pathologists have speculated that organ removal could have occurred (but there is no real evidence of that - although the horrific injury to the breastbone suggests an attempt to open up the chest cavity.) In fact, the exact nature of her soft tissue mutilations are not known due to her dry-remains state and skeletonization.

 

[Dedpanman]

Dedpanman - Clifford Olsen is a killer that moved from children to adult (18 years) and from male to female.

I'm going to take a closer look at Olsen. I need to get more familiar with that case.

 

[orora]

You have good points Dedpanman and I can meet you half way - patterns are there whether we see them or not - it has to be why we make connections.

Like Wondergirl eloquently said though - looking for a linear sequence or some other 'tight knit' relevance could be a tripping point for those trying to solve a case. LE or otherwise.

When you asked WG your question I was tempted to post a reminder that Christine's killer had the smarts to place her body in a different jurisdiction than the one she disappeared from. Very smart or just lucky due to some connection to that location? Do people that commit this type of crime become aware that different jurisdictions are their best bet to stay under the radar?

This direction could get very interesting!

And, the recorder with Christines name prominently displayed was left right beside the trail almost as if it and Christine were meant to be found there. Why? What would finding Christine at that location provide? I believe the killer knew he was unlikely to be linked to that location.

Along with the recent direction of profiling the killer by seeking patterns, the "feel" has changed here, all for the good imo. Lack of an exact pattern may be saying something as well too. I think you are all getting closer to where you need to go. I do not believe the perp here is a normal type person nor could he even pretend to be one. As bad a people as some of the poi discussed here may be, I don't believe any of them even come close to the requirements of filling these boots. jmo

C. Olson is an excellent character comparison study. A Jailbird informant type personality. Bob Jessop was in jail. Debbie Silverman comes to mind for some of the same reasons. Olson was supposedly in the area at that time according to him. Here is a guy who jumps from young to old, male to female and back again. Patterns were hard to match over the long term but some could be made out in hindsight. Cases against Olson were hindered by RCMP bungling at critical junctures in many other earlier instances. Why was asked, not many answers came from any of it, even a parliamentary inquiry came up dry. Victims families and even some Police officers stated they believed it was to do with Olson's informant activities.

Fear not leaving the box, the box is the repository of many an unsolved crime. imo

 

[orora]

Just a little fyi- Olson claimed to have information on the murders of other young girls.. One other murder he has been implicated in "Oahn Ngoc Ha" was apparently also mutilated and or dismembered.

quote- from Clifford Olson's story:

http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/serialkillers/olsonstory.htm



Then Attorney General of Alberta the Honourable Neil Crawford received a letterdated March 25, 1983 from Olson claiming he had information pertaining to three young girls that were raped and murdered and that one of their bodies had already been recovered. Olson also sent letters to Peter Lougheed the Premier of the province of Alberta dated April 5th, 1983 concerning the three murder victims. Olson also swore an affidavit on June 29, 1983 stating that he had knowledge of the three murder victims. On instruction from the Attorney Generals office of Alberta, Corporal G.A. Gary Forbes, R.C.M.P. officer of the general investigation section of Edmonton visited Kingston Penitentiary to see Olson. Statements were written on April 14th, 1983and signed by Olson and G.A. Forbes of the R.C.M.P. pertaining to the three murdered girls. These statements cannont be made public by Olson because of the R.C.M.P.'s ongoing investigation in this matter. It can be noted, however, that one of the victims was Oahn Ngoc Ha a 19 years old Vietnamese who was then employed at the Baniff Hotel where Olson stayed.

Olson was to appear in the Vancouver City Court on a couple of charges in 1977 but as he was on parole he skipped court and left the night before for Alberta, leaving from the Vancouver Greyhound bus station with his girlfriend Evelyn. On February 28th the body of 19 year old Oahn Ngoc Ha was found on the Trans Canada Highway about 53 kilometres west of Golden B.C.

and similarities to one of the earliest victims...

Two days later on July 30, 1981 Olson coerced 17 year old Louise Chartrand from Maple Ridge, British Columbia into accompanying him to Whistler Mountain. On August 27, 1981 the R.C.M.P. with the help of Olson, unearthed Chartrand's decomposed body which had evidence of massive skull fractures.[/QUOTE]

 

[matou]

I really don't feel her chest cavity was opened, to remove her heart or similar. The ribs were broken inwards. JMO

 

[Dedpanman]

I really don't feel her chest cavity was opened, to remove her heart or similar. The ribs were broken inwards. JMO

Matou - could you elaborate further on that intriguing detail? I know you saw autopsy pictures at some point, but I'm wondering how you can be so certain about the ribs being broken inwards? Christine's remains, as described by Makin and Kaufman, we're essentialy just a pile of scattered bones above the waist. In the pictures you saw, were the bones reassembled so that this detail was obvious, or did that come from discussion with the person who showed you the pictures?

 

[orora]

Just one more minor point. The police do monitor suspects especially in murders such as this for considerable periods of time and viclas has all that information. For someone indentified as a poi or even for someone from the general area to be involved in similar crimes elsewhere would be doubly difficult. The ones we know of would be checked, red flags would be raised for anyone from that area later suspected in a similar elsewhere. Unless there was some reason to restrict that knowledge and not act on it.... all our poi seem to have been exonerated by the lack of pattern and or follow up crimes..

 

[matou]

Deadpanman, the bones were arranged in anatomical order with the chestplate showing the neat and straight slice in half from top to bottom, and the rib ends closest to the chestplate were broken at the tips, showing them pushed inwards.

 

[Dedpanman]

Deadpanman, the bones were arranged in anatomical order with the chestplate showing the neat and straight slice in half from top to bottom, and the rib ends closest to the chestplate were broken at the tips, showing them pushed inwards.

The breast bone or sternum is actually three bones fused together. At the top is the Manubrium, (actually, this bone doesn't fuse with the rest of the sternum until middle age or later, so it would articulate with the middle bone) then the middle piece is called the body, and the smaller, pointy bone at the bottom is called the Xiphoid process. Was the vertical cut straight down the middle of the sternum? And which side was missing - left or right?

(If you don't mind answering...?)

 

[matou]

It was straight down the middle and I think I remember the left side (CJ's left) was missing. I seem to remember the top part, the manubrium, being cut completely. I can't remember if the cut extended all the way to the bottom of the sternum (saw it in '93). The sternal ends of the ribs were broken. I was shocked by the precision of the cut and the brutality of the violence Christine went through.

 

[Dedpanman]

It was straight down the middle and I think I remember the left side (CJ's left) was missing. I seem to remember the top part, the manubrium, being cut completely. I can't remember if the cut extended all the way to the bottom of the sternum (saw it in '93). The sternal ends of the ribs were broken. I was shocked by the precision of the cut and the brutality of the violence Christine went through.

A few more details if you don’t mind, Matou?

Where the ribs appear to attach to the sternum – that’s technically costal cartilages (light brown in the diagram). In old age, the costal cartilages are prone to superficial ossification (the process of turning into bone). Christine would have had cartilages adjacent to her sternum. So, when you said “the sternal ends of the ribs were broken” do you mean the actual rib (grey in the diagram) was broken where it meets the costal cartilage, or do you mean the costal cartilage was broken where it meets the body of the sternum?

Do you know what I mean?

Also, how many appeared to be broken inward?
Were they broken on both sides of the sternum?

If you can help me with these finer points, I will attempt a drawing of this injury based on your descriptions and post it. It could reveal something about the weapon and/or what the killer had to do to create such an injury. Or, just discussion.

 

[matou]

It's possible that my interpretation is wrong and that the broken ends I saw were at the point were the cartilage joins the bony rib, but I don't think that's what I saw. From what I remember, actual ribs were broken and bent inwards. I can't remember how many ribs were broken or which ones or from which side (although I remember looking at the right side and seeing broken ribs there (Christine's right). There was more than one broken rib and some of the ribs had cutmarks on them. JMO

 

[matou]

In my opinion, the force of the stabbing blow(s) were extremely powerful to break her ribs. That, or he stomped on her or crushed her chest cavity first and she didn't die so he started stabbing her. JMO

 

[matou]

IMO, there was no sawing type of effect to the chestplate. That bone is really spongy, so I guess it cut fairly easily with whatever monster of a knife the perp used. JMO

 

[Dedpanman]

In my opinion, the force of the stabbing blow(s) were extremely powerful to break her ribs. That, or he stomped on her or crushed her chest cavity first and she didn't die so he started stabbing her. JMO

Yes - you've hit on exactly the point floating in my mind. To create those broken ribs around the sternum, it seems like a stomp, a jump, or a powerful kick might be the logical reason for those injuries. And, if so, did it happen before or after the vertical slice that bisected the sternum? Before or after the stabbing?

I'll attempt a drawing based on the details you've provided (and there will be errors) but maybe I can get it close to what you remember seeing.

 

[Dedpanman]

Matou - here’s my sketch based on your notes.

I know you saw the bones arranged on a table in the photograph(s), but that would be too hard to draw and wouldn’t provide anatomical context for the layman, so I’ve drawn an assembled thoracic cage with the injuries.

I have a feeling I’ve made too many fractures where the ribs are broken inwards at the costal cartilages. Maybe you can help me with this, Matou? Were the ribs broken like sticks – with one main fracture and the broken piece angling inward? Or, were there multiple fractures where the broken rib angled in? Multiple fractures would suggest multiple impacts. One fracture per rib would suggest one main blow – probably to the center of the chest.

Let me know how I can adjust the drawing to make it closer to what you remember.

What about the sternum? How does it look?

One interesting thing that came immediately to mind as I was drawing this – is the length of the sternum and the fact that it was bisected from end to end - cleanly – according to descriptions. The sternum is essentially half the length of the abdomen. I think you'd be hard-pressed to accomplish this with even the sharpest hunting knife.

What else could do that?
(And, there were no markings that suggested the teeth of a saw.)

 

[Woodland]

With all due respect on what weapon was used to sever Christine's sternum, I don't recall any weapon being ruled out by any pathologist. Not that they were necessarily qualified to do so.

The weapon went from a small pocket knife (Hillsdon Smith and his limited investigation and or knowledge on what was used) to a larger knife with possibly a serrated edge.

Whatever it was, one had to be able to cut along the top length of the sternum towards the inside of the body as opposed to top to bottom. Top to bottom would have hit other 'material' within the body - organs etc. Unless of course one reached inside and removed them before cutting.

I'm not an expert on cutting bodies, but I can use a knife, hacksaw and other cutting tools. I recently cut many lengths of plastic tubing with a hacksaw (hubby doesn't earn a living locally) and when I was done I realized there were no discernible teeth marks (ie thought of Christine). I was cutting length wise from top to bottom.

Just suggesting not to get caught up in the weapon unless we know more.

 

[Dedpanman]

I agree, Woodland. We would be here for days running lists of cutting tools and would get nowhere. My question was intended in the rhetorical sense.

However teeth marks from a saw on bone would (should?) be visible through a microscope. I'm glad you mentioned the suggestion of a knife with a serrated edge - I had forgotten that detail.

It's the broken ribs I'm really interested in, and what caused them - how they fit into the sequence of events.

 

[Dedpanman]

Whatever it was, one had to be able to cut along the top length of the sternum towards the inside of the body as opposed to top to bottom. Top to bottom would have hit other 'material' within the body - organs etc. Unless of course one reached inside and removed them before cutting.

I'm not following you on this. Cutting along the top length as opposed to top to bottom?

So what if he hit organs while cutting the sternum...?
Maybe he did - and we wouldn't know, because most of the soft tissue and all the organs were gone by the time she was found.

Sorry. I feel you have a point, but I'm not getting it.

 

[Woodland]

Good point Dedpanman. The killer may have hit organs while cutting - taking longer to cut through the sternum - and we would not know.

Hitting organs etc would hinder the process. My point was cutting laterally if that is more clear - at a time the organs were still there. Although, if the killer had Christine in another location until the internal organs disintegrated, then decided to cut the sternum, the job would have been easier. The angle of the tool would be moot.

I would like to know what caused the broken ribs as well. I would also like to know if the pathologists agreed on what caused the broken ribs.