CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

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An interesting one I dug up from the Toronto Star, circa 1995.

Some of the details I found informative:

Dale- Is the suspect known as Brad Foster (I think.).

Clarence Is the suspect known as "Uncle" Hector Drummond or the "Iron Lung Man".

A few interesting details emerged from this article.

1. "Dale" who it sounds like was Brad Foster, based on the van washing description and the name of his boss, is deceased. He died around May 1994, of complications due to AIDS. So, assuming it is true, we know now what became of him.
  • The oil stain issue is interesting
.
2. "Uncle" Hector was an eye-opener, and I think someone commented early in the thread about the lack of info. about him.

  • According to this, he was about 70 at the time of Christine's disappearance.
  • He had no alibi
  • He was ill, apparently with emphysema.
  • This report states, and I believe I have heard it somewhere before, that he made these weird, inappropriate comments about Christine and her disappearance.
  • His car was like the one seen at the Jessop home when she disappeared.
I am not saying either of these men were guilty; but it is no wonder they were considered suspects.

I am guessing that "Uncle" Hector, who was in ill health and would be about 98 years old now, is likely deceased, too.

Other pertinent details from this:

The guy who lived over the store. (!)

Another elderly man who made a death bed confession (!)

Strange stuff. I don't know what everyone else thinks of this.
 

Attachments

An interesting one I dug up from the Toronto Star, circa 1995.

**************

Strange stuff. I don't know what everyone else thinks of this.

Darkblue - are you able to post the entire article by any chance...?
 
http://netk.net.au/Canada/Morin30.asp
The Profile as an Investigative Tool
The FBI profile listed a number of personal characteristics, propensities and interpersonal difficulties which were associated with the person responsible for the murder of Christine Jessop. The following are some of the characteristics which, in the opinion of Douglas, were associated with the murderer: The victim sought out someone she knew and trusted to show him the recorder she had received that day; The offender was youthful — late teens, early twenties; He was having personal problems at home, school or work and was experiencing many life stresses and may have had difficulties with a girlfriend at the time of the offence; Not antisocial, but somewhat of a loner who prefers his own company; May present a façade as a macho individual, superior to others, but has poor self-esteem and lacks self-confidence; Tends to play with children who might be impressed by his antics; Drives older model vehicle, not well-maintained and cruises area in vehicle — spends time cruising in his car as a vehicle for convenience to escape; Has a poor self-image and may have a physical ailment, disability or disfigurement or facial scars and does not maintain good personal hygiene, is not well-groomed, needs a haircut or shave, wears sloppy, soiled clothing in need of repair; Occasionally drinks alcohol; Will have a criminal history of nuisance, arson, cruelty to animals, voyeurism, or break and entering; Lazy, not a high-achiever, of average intelligence, a mediocre student; offenders of this type generally do not graduate from high school, but if he did he would have gotten by with barely passing grades;

The following post-offence behaviour was indicated: May have cleaned the car’s interior after the offence; Rigid, stiff, pre-occupied or nervous with the police; Overly cooperative, participated in searches which show how concerned he is; Has difficulty sleeping".
 
dotr - see post #68 for profile details from the Kaufman Report.
 
This is a lengthy read, but well worth it. Hate to bring GPM into this, but his name is wrapped around this document so there's no getting away from it.


Report of the Kaufman Commission on Proceedings Involving Guy Paul Morin:
The Honourable Fred Kaufman CM QC 31 March 1998

(x) Profiling - The Request for a Profile

Criminal profiling involves the analysis of the details of a crime and the interpretation of clues left at a crime scene, in conjunction with an understanding of cases of a similar nature, for the purpose of preparing a psychological profile of the killer. It is an investigative tool which is used as a guide to assist police in directing their investigation. In January 1985, profiling was relatively new in Canada. The Durham Regional Police Service considered utilizing a psychological profile to provide them with an indication of the type of person who would commit the murder of Christine Jessop. As Det Fitzpatrick had not previously used the services of a profiler, he asked the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force what was needed to obtain a psychological profile from the FBI in the United States. He was given material used in an unrelated case to assist him in formatting his request.

On February 15, 1985, and over the course of the next month, Det Fitzpatrick and Insp Shephard made several notebook entries about ‘profiling.’ Fitzpatrick explained that he and his partner spent over 20 hours putting together the documentation required by the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit for its preparation of a profile. Insp Shephard characterized this material as relating to background on the Jessop family, the circumstances surrounding Christine Jessop’s disappearance, the pathology report and selected photographs taken at the body site. It is unclear whether a copy of this substantial package was kept by Durham.

On March 22, 1985, Det Fitzpatrick delivered this material to Oliver Zink, an FBI agent in Buffalo, in upstate New York. Zink was to determine the feasibility of profiling this case based on the material provided. A few days later, however, before hearing back from Zink, the investigators learned that FBI profiler John Douglas was in Toronto on an unrelated matter. Douglas was an agent from the National Centre of the Analysis of Violent Crimes located at the FBI Academy’s Behavioral Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia.20 The investigators contacted Douglas and arranged a meeting with him to discuss a possible profile.


The Integrity of the Profile

Guy Paul Morin was a suspect at the time the investigators discussed this matter with the FBI. An issue arises as to whether the profiling process was corrupted or contaminated during the exchange of information between the Dets and the profiler. Both Fitzpatrick and Shephard understood that the FBI would not prepare a profile if a suspect had been identified. While Insp Shephard testified that he did not know the underlying reason for this policy, he assumed it was simply considered a waste of time to prepare a profile when the police already had a viable suspect. He added that while Guy Paul Morin was a suspect, a profile was nevertheless requested “in case it led us somewhere else.” At this Inquiry, Shephard was asked this: Q. You know that the FBI has a policy ... not to do a profile where there’s a suspect in mind. You have a suspect in mind, but you’re causing the FBI to do a profile. I mean surely it dawned on you that the reason for the policy was that the officers, either consciously or unconsciously, could communicate information to John Douglas that would cause him to be pointed in the direction of your suspect, rather than enable him to do an untainted independent analysis ... A. That thought never entered my mind sir.

Commission counsel, and several parties to the Inquiry, wanted Douglas to be called as a witness. Commission counsel and staff spoke with Douglas’ representative several times. By letter dated June 18, 1997, Sandler renewed the Commission’s request that Douglas attend as a witness. As reflected in that letter, the summons issued by the Commission to Douglas could not be enforced in the United States. Though Douglas never specifically declined to testify here, there was no response to the requests for attendance made orally and in writing.

Insp Brown said that he instructed Det Fitzpatrick and Insp Shephard to reveal nothing to Douglas about Guy Paul Morin’s status as a suspect, to ensure the independence of the report. He said: We were scrupulous in not even hinting that Morin was a suspect in this case to Douglas [because] obviously Douglas can’t be objective about a profile if he already knows who the suspect is. On the afternoon of March 26, 1985, Fitzpatrick and Shephard introduced Douglas to the Jessops at their home. The investigators maintain that the Jessops were unaware that the police had a suspect. Following this interview, the three men (Fitzpatrick, Shephard and Douglas) travelled to the body site via Ravenshoe Road. Later that evening, the officers presented Douglas with photographs, police reports, medical examiner’s reports, and autopsy information for his review. The officers and Douglas parted company shortly after 10:00 p.m. A supplementary report prepared by Insp Shephard states:

March 26th, 1985 ... Douglas ... was spoken to and questioned by us with regards to possible person(s) who would commit this type of crime. Douglas also viewed exhibits and photos and advised that he would try and give us a brief summary of suspect(s). Douglas also advised that when he returns to Quantico he would be able to supply us with a more detailed profile. Note: Douglas to put brief profile on tape.

The next afternoon, Det Fitzpatrick and Insp Shephard again met with Douglas. Shephard’s notebook entry for this date reads as follows: Met with John Douglas re Profile, viewed Citizen’s Alert tape on Guy Paul interview. discuss Proactive techniques. 20:00 off duty. Insp Shephard said that Douglas was told on that day that the police had a suspect; he did not react to this information with surprise. The tape of the February 22, 1985 interview with Morin was played for Douglas. Both Dets denied that any discussion or information relating to Morin was exchanged before Douglas provided them with his taped cassette containing the profile that he had dictated earlier. Brian Gover recalled as follows: Q. [F]rom your contact with the police officers on the case, and your knowledge of what Douglas expected, was there a suspect that Fitzpatrick and Shephard had in mind at the time they retained Douglas to do the profile? A. Yes. They had Morin in mind at the time. And as I recall Staff Sergeant Fitzpatrick telling me, and I don’t believe it was a private conversation, I think other police officers and/or Crown counsel were present. In the course of his dealings with the Durham police, Douglas confronted them and said to them, “Well, you have a suspect in mind don’t you?” That, Douglas had determined on his own, given the information that he was being provided by the investigators, that in fact they were breaching the protocol used by profiling experts. Q. So Fitzpatrick told you that Douglas had confronted him with what Douglas deduced from the way Durham Regional police were dealing with him? A. Yes. Q. In effect that they did have a suspect and that would be in breech (sic) of the protocol? A. That’s right. Q. And the result is, in your opinion, the profile that was constructed of the potential killer by Douglas was contaminated in that way? A. That’s right. Essentially, in my view, it was rendered valueless.

Portions of the Douglas profile are set out below:

On October 3rd. 1984 when the victim left school she was very anxious to come home and show her parents and family a new musical instrument, a flute, that she obtained that day and like many children of her age she would probably want to show someone her new toy, perhaps even play the instrument to someone. Upon arriving home she came to her residence and noted that her mother had taken her older brother to a dentist and would not be home until perhaps 45 minutes to an hour from the time she arrived home. It is the opinion of this profiler that the victim, Christine Jessop, in all probability left her residence and went with someone who she knew or went to the residence of an immediate neighbour’s to show them her new toy. The Durham investigation indicates that the victim after arriving home from school got on her bicycle, traveled to a variety store where she purchased some candy, then returned to her residence, parked her bicycle indoors at the rear of the residence, at some point took her flute with her and left her residence. In summary, the victim Christine Jessop was targeted by a subject whom she recognized and knew and she became a victim of this violent crime because the subject responsible knew that this young child could be easily dominated, manipulated, and physically controlled by him quite easily. (Emphasis added.)

Counsel for the Morins alleged that the investigators shared their theory with Douglas that Christine Jessop sought out Morin to show him her new recorder; that is why the profile echoed this theory which had been developed weeks earlier by Shephard and Fitzpatrick. Insp Brown responded that sometimes a profile is so “startlingly accurate,” one would almost have to come to a conclusion that, perhaps, it was not prepared independently even though, in fact, it was. Insp Shephard testified that their theory was not communicated to Douglas: We never led him to believe anything. We just explained to him the circumstances. He read some reports ... Insp Shephard said that after Douglas listened to the taped interview of Morin, he agreed that he sounded like a good suspect and discussed with them pro-active interviewing techniques (discussed later).

In an article appearing in The Globe and Mail on November 6, 1985, Douglas was reported as saying that he had no idea that the profile, which described the killer as a loner who lived in the neighbourhood, would prompt the police to head out and arrest Morin. He was quoted as follows: Inexperienced investigators may get the preconceived idea, then get the profile, and lock on to somebody. The analysis is experiential, it’s not scientific. Insp Shephard’s notebook reflects that on March 28, 1985, at 7:45 a.m., he left the taped cassette containing the profile at his office for transcription. Det Fitzpatrick’s understanding was that the transcribed document was subsequently forwarded to Douglas, together with the material that was originally sent to Zink for his review, but no additional profile was provided to the officers.

The preface of the profile written by Douglas contains the following passage: This profile is based upon the viewing of the initial crime scene, photographs and police reports, viewing the Medical Examiner’s reports, reviewing the background history of the victim, doing a neighbourhood analysis and profile as to where the victim resided as well as an analysis of the disposal area where the victim was subsequently deposited by the unknown suspect as well as autopsy protocol and reading the autopsy itself. There was no information provided to the Profiler as to whether or not there had been any suspects developed by the investigators in this case. (Emphasis added.)

The Profile as an Investigative Tool

The FBI profile listed a number of personal characteristics, propensities and interpersonal difficulties which were associated with the person responsible for the murder of Christine Jessop. The following are some of the characteristics which, in the opinion of Douglas, were associated with the murderer: The victim sought out someone she knew and trusted to show him the recorder she had received that day; The offender was youthful — late teens, early twenties; He was having personal problems at home, school or work and was experiencing many life stresses and may have had difficulties with a girlfriend at the time of the offence; Not antisocial, but somewhat of a loner who prefers his own company; May present a façade as a macho individual, superior to others, but has poor self-esteem and lacks self-confidence; Tends to play with children who might be impressed by his antics; Drives older model vehicle, not well-maintained and cruises area in vehicle — spends time cruising in his car as a vehicle for convenience to escape; Has a poor self-image and may have a physical ailment, disability or disfigurement or facial scars and does not maintain good personal hygiene, is not well-groomed, needs a haircut or shave, wears sloppy, soiled clothing in need of repair; Occasionally drinks alcohol; Will have a criminal history of nuisance, arson, cruelty to animals, voyeurism, or break and entering; Lazy, not a high-achiever, of average intelligence, a mediocre student; offenders of this type generally do not graduate from high school, but if he did he would have gotten by with barely passing grades;

The following post-offence behaviour was indicated: May have cleaned the car’s interior after the offence; Rigid, stiff, pre-occupied or nervous with the police; Overly cooperative, participated in searches which show how concerned he is; Has difficulty sleeping.

A number of these points could not relate to Guy Paul Morin in any way. By way of example only, he had no history of criminality, he was not lazy, did not have a poor self-image, physical ailment, disability or disfigurement. There was no evidence that he was a ‘cruiser.’ There was no evidence that his vehicle was cleaned after the offence was committed; to the contrary. He was not rigid, stiff, pre-occupied or nervous with the police; to the contrary. He did not demonstrate an overly cooperative attitude by participating in the search (ironically, despite this aspect of the profile, his failure to search was later used to demonstrate consciousness of guilt). There was no evidence he had experienced a number of ‘failings’ in his life, that his parents were after him to find a job, that he was experiencing difficulties with a girlfriend at the time of the offence or that his parents were experiencing marital difficulties. There was no evidence that he dated girls younger than himself whom he could easily dominate. In summary, it could not reasonably be said that the profile matched or even closely resembled Guy Paul Morin.


Insp Shephard admitted that he and Fitzpatrick probably focused on the features of the profile which fit Morin and ignored those which did not: “Obviously, if they didn’t fit him, then it was of no value to us, but it was .. only a guide that we used anyway.” When asked what it would have taken for the profile to have pointed away from Morin, Insp Shephard responded: “If they said a female was responsible ... probably we would have looked in the other direction.”

The Dissemination of a Modified Profile

Douglas recommended that the profile be used to create pressure on the perpetrator of the crime by telling the media in a series of interviews that investigative techniques (e.g. personality profiling and advances in forensic sciences) were providing new leads which would ultimately identify the killer. He suggested that certain portions of the profile be released to the media
: This would be to the effect that the subject knew the victim, the subjects age grouping, the subjects vehicle he drives, the type of vehicle, the post-offence behaviour exhibited by the subject that should be recognized by people in the community who may have recognized the subject, his behaviour immediately following the homicide and you are looking for them to come forth and provide information to you.

Douglas also recommended that the suspect should be interviewed only when it appeared he had been affected by the press releases and the pressure brought to bear by the investigation. He also made other suggestions on how to interview a suspect. He recommended, for instance, that a blow-up of a fingerprint, supposedly taken from the victim or her possessions, be displayed prominently in the interview room, and that the suspect be told that the print matched him. He further suggested that filing cabinets, with the suspect’s name clearly written on the outside, be placed in the room. In this manner, pressure would be brought to bear upon him, hopefully inducing a confession. These suggestions were used during the interrogation of Morin following his arrest and will be discussed more fully below. Douglas’ recommendations were set in motion through a press release dated April 9, 1985, announcing that the police had retained the FBI for the purpose of preparing a profile of the murderer of Christine Jessop. The communiqué said that the officers had been advised by the FBI that “the Jessop case is one that can easily be profiled ... everything points towards someone in Queensville.” The profile, police said, would be available the following week.

A second press release dated April 17, 1985, contained a modified profile from the one provided by Douglas. Characteristics which corresponded to Morin (or which the police thought corresponded) were released to the press; those which did not were excluded or amended to conform. For example, the age group of the perpetrator was extended from “late teens to early 20's” to “nineteen to twenty-six years” [Guy Paul was 25 at the time of the offence]. The offender was described as an intelligent individual with a high school education, features Insp Shephard agreed were reflections of what he knew about Morin rather than what was contained in the profile. The press release said this: Police released some details of an FBI report that gives a psychological portrait of Jessop’s killer. According to the findings of FBI agent John Douglas, the killer is white, between 19 and 26 years old, has a high school education and is intelligent, he’s a night person, dresses sloppily and feels superior to others. The FBI believes the man is a labourer, lives in Queensville, and knew and had the trust of Christine. It’s believed he was sane and did not intend to commit murder, but lost control after sexually assaulting the girl. Police say they have less than 5 suspects in the case and are watching all closely. (Emphasis added.)

The reference to ‘he did not intend to commit murder’ was a ‘face-saving scenario,’ advocated by Douglas to increase the likelihood of a later confession. When arrested on April 22, 1985, Guy Paul Morin told the police that, on hearing the profile on television, his father told him that it sounded like him. Morin, of course, denied his involvement. McGuigan commented during the Inquiry that he found it strange that Morin’s own father, having expressed this thought, would later come forward with an alibi for his son. His interpretation of the conversation between the father and son was that they were discussing whether Guy Paul Morin had killed Christine Jessop: I took it as a — if I can use the phrase, a bit of a domestic between Guy Paul Morin and his father, in which the father’s saying: That fits you. And he’s saying something along the lines: you know me, I wouldn’t do that. I mean why would you ever have that type of discussion with someone that was there, and knows that you were home all that time, and that you couldn’t possibly have murdered Christine Jessop? I mean, it may be it’s a family quirk that they talk that way, and maybe — I obviously saw that before when I was reading the statement, and it didn’t click in as it did when I read it this time.
McGuigan was unaware that the profile broadcast for public consumption was designed by the police to match Morin to unnerve him prior to his interview upon arrest. Morin’s perspective on this discussion with his father was that it was a good-natured jovial remark. He told the police on the day of his arrest: Like they said on the news last week, [the Morins] said, “Christ, you’re the grubby sucker around here. You’ve always been grubby.” I said, “yeah, well that’s my way.” and age, what nineteen to twenty-five that sounds like me. I said, “there’s no reason to think about it dad.” Nothing to even think about, me, Christ, I swear this is so crazy.

Insp Shephard said that no consideration was given to the impact on the fairness of any future trial against Morin which could arise from the release to the public of an altered profile designed only to match the suspect. Morin was arrested on April 22, 1985. Insp Shephard met with Supt Douglas Bullock of the Durham Regional Police Service just prior to the press release announcing the arrest, but he testified that he was not made aware of any strategy on how the profile would be featured in a press conference which was to follow the arrest. In fact, as Justice Osler noted later in the change of venue application, Supt Bullock told the press that Morin came well within the profile which had been extensively publicized. This was inaccurate, misleading and unfortunate because this statement later became one of the major considerations which formed the basis for the change of venue application before Justice Osler. It was Scott’s view that any press conference by the police is not helpful to the Crown because of its potential for prejudice, leading, as it did in this case, to a change of venue application.

In preparing for the first trial, Scott thought that defence lawyers might attempt to put forward evidence that Guy Paul Morin was not the kind of person who could psychologically commit such a crime. Accordingly, he intended to call Douglas as a witness to rebut that assertion. As it turned out, this was not necessary when the ‘insanity evidence’ was offered by the defence. On December 23, 1985, Scott wrote to Assistant Director James McKenzie of the FBI. This is what the letter said, in part: Dear Sir: One of your special agents, John Douglas provided a psychological profile of the killer of a 9 year old girl. His profile turned out to be remarkably accurate. Scott believed that when he wrote that letter he had read the actual profile — not just the supplementary report tailored to elicit a particular response. He now believes the “remarkable accura[cy]” portion of his letter was a slight overstatement in order to get McKenzie’s help in procuring the attendance of Douglas in the Canadian courts. I should add that in Douglas’ will-say for the first trial, there is a specific statement that he had no information referable to any particular person in preparing the report.

The Decision Not to Wait

Attached to the profile was a five-page document entitled Investigative Technique. This document detailed pro-active techniques relating to the arrest and interview of a subject with a view to obtaining a confession. This is what it suggested, in part: f a suspect is developed by your Department the next step would be to assess the subject giving him the benefit of the doubt that he did not perpetrate this crime, however, if the assessment concludes that he more than likely is the subject the next step would be to implement the investigative techniques over a two to three week period followed by the interrogation techniques.

Insp Shephard could not recall why the investigating officers did not follow Douglas’ advice to observe Morin’s behaviour for signs of disturbance following the press release. The fact that Morin did not appear affected by the pressure the technique was intended to create did not change their decision to arrest him. Rather, Insp Shephard explained that efforts to target Morin in the public domain were conducted to facilitate a future interview with him when he would believe that the police had considerable evidence against him.

Findings

The FBI document entitled Investigative Technique, which was provided to the investigators along with Douglas’ profile, suggests that “if a profile is developed by your department, the next step would be to assess the subject, giving him the benefit of the doubt that he did not perpetrate the crime.” Unfortunately, Morin not only did not get the benefit of the doubt, the investigators looked to the profile for confirmation of their own strongly held views. I have concerns about the extent to which the profile was contaminated by the investigators’ pre-conceived views. This may explain aspects of the profile that do parallel Guy Paul Morin. We do not know precisely what the investigators or the Jessops told John Douglas. However, the wisdom of not conducting a profile once a suspect has been identified is obvious.

Having said that, though features of the profile did parallel Guy Paul Morin, it could not reasonably be said that the profile matched or even closely resembled Guy Paul Morin. This did not cause any introspection on the part of the officers. Indeed, Insp Shephard was asked what it would have taken for the profile to have pointed away from Guy Paul Morin. His candid, and very significant answer at this Inquiry was that: “if they said a female was responsible ... probably we would have looked in the other direction.” Once the modified profile was publicly disseminated, the officers did not follow Douglas’ advice to observe Morin’s behaviour for signs of disturbance. The fact that there was no evidence that he was affected (in any incriminating way) by the press release did not affect their decision to arrest him. Put succinctly, the investigators never did use the profile to help them direct the investigation to the perpetrator, only to help them secure the conviction of Morin, the man they already thought was the perpetrator.

The use of a modified profile was problematic. Its dissemination was not intended to bring forth new investigative leads from the public; it was intended to ‘spook’ Guy Paul Morin. The problem with that approach was that, by tailoring the profile to fit Guy Paul Morin, and then publicly disseminating it, the police helped ensure that Morin could never get a fair trial in that region and that people in that community who knew Morin would draw the same parallels. Indeed, it was only at this Inquiry that the nature of the publicly-disseminated profile was revealed. Crown counsel were unaware that the profile had been modified for public release. The supplementary record, for internal use, did not reflect this as well. I am unclear as to the extent to which Crown counsel had the actual profile, rather than the supplementary report or press release. My recommendations address the proper and improper use of a profile.


That's a long one, I wonder if profilers were to start fresh today, if they would reach the same conclusions?
 
Sorry about that, folks. Here is Part 2 of the article...so it actually sounds like I know what I'm talking about! :blushing:
 

Attachments

Good question dotr - Douglas lacked so much information. Fresh eyes after the second autopsy would be more useful, imo.
 
Behavioural profiling is tough, no doubt.

This case presents particular difficulties.

I agree that killers fall into organized/disorganized categories, but rather than polar absolutes, their personalities/styles run on a continuum, in my opinion.

The kidnapping, being so "clean" could be the result of a slow, methodical plot...but I do not want to give the monster too much credit, as there was an element of luck and a large one.

The way the murder was committed, and I'm giving credit to the poster who identified it as a "loss of control" and "disorganized"...it could be seen as just that, IMHO.

Woodland, I do like your linkage with the Silverman and Brown cases. I cannot put my finger on why, exactly, but I do. Particularly Silverman. Of course, if there is truth to this, the killer would be older than has been previously suggested.
 
Hmmm...It may have been, although the pseudonym was different. The version I read had the witness and the person of interest staring right at each other. The story also had the unknown male driving a car.

I do not have the direct quote because I don't have the story on hand, but I do remember aspects in the version I read
that differ from this one.

This is another area where I agree strongly with many if not most of the posters here. I keep asking myself when I find a fact related to this case; "...did this really happen?".

There are unfortunately so many inaccuracies and fuzzy details that it is hard to separate fact from fiction.

I found the story you’re speaking of.

You’re referring to the experience reported by Gabriel Polgar that appears on page 171-172 of Redrum first edition, and 120-121 of the revised edition.

Here it is in a nutshell (I’m paraphrasing):

In March of 1985, Global Television aired a re-enactment of Christine Jessop’s presumed movements leading up to her abduction. The show referenced a blue Oldsmobile that someone had seen outside the Jessop house on October 3.

When Gabriel Polgar saw the program – and the bit about the blue car - he was “jolted” into remembering an incident that had happened to him a few days after Christine’s abduction on the Fourth Concession.

Polgar lived on the Fourth Concession about a mile west of the body dump site. He said while driving that road, he saw a stationary car that was pulled off the road and halfway into the ditch. Polgar stopped to investigate.

There was no one in the car but the trunk was open a few inches. He heard someone in the bushes making noise – like they were kicking leaves. This went on for about half a minute, then a big man came out of the trees breathing heavily and was shocked to see Polgar at his car. The man went immediately to the trunk and closed it.

Polgar felt the man’s demeanour was threatening and then there was a kind of strange staring match between them. The man then got into his car and drove off.

Polgar said the spot where this encounter happened was a swampy, low-lying area west of where Christine’s body would eventually be found. (You can find this using Google Earth.)

Polgar gave the police a good description of the man but they didn’t seem very interested in his story. He also suggested to the police that the ground was pretty soft where this happened and that there was a good chance that the man’s footprints could still be found there.

Needless to say I suppose… the police never followed up on this lead.

When you compare the Gabriel Polgar story with the Robert Billings story, the Polgar one seems more authentic somehow. The geography is specific and Polgar seemed pretty confident that evidence of his story could be found and his encounter verified.

Makin sketches out the obvious implication of this story in his book: that Polgar may have interrupted the killer who was in the process of dumping Christine's body, and because of his intrusion – the killer decided to find another spot further east down the Fourth Concession (the Culls’ property).

There you have it.
 
I remember using a textbook called "Manufacturing Guilt, Wrongful Convictions in Canada", by Barrie Anderson and Dawn Anderson, during a university criminology course.

http://www.fernwoodpublishing.ca/Manufacturing-Guilt-2nd-edition-Barrie-Anderson-Dawn-Anderson/

It was an excellent book. Yes, it was a sociological treatment of wrongful convictions, and I am referring to the chapter on Guy Paul Morin.

What was interesting to me is the "refresher" information that points in the direction that the case should have gone all along. Away from Morin and on to other suspects, etc. I have also read the first version of Redrum the Innocent, but this book was concise in detailing much of the information the police missed/ignored; suitable for someone who needs a quick catch-up on the case.

If anyone gets a chance, have a look at it. I no longer have a copy, unfortunately.

Darkblue - went out and got myself a copy of "Manufacturing Guilt, Wrongful Convictions in Canada". An excellent summary (with a couple of errors in the details) but it's mostly right on the money. There's some good stuff there, so I'll sift through it again and post anything useful. Thanks for mentioning that one.

On another note – finished going through “Real Justice: Guilty of Being Weird: The Story of Guy Paul Morin” by Cynthia J. Faryon… and I found it pretty disappointing. Kirk Makin wrote the Foreword, so I had some hopes about this one… but ultimately – I found it full of errors (example: Faryon has the body dump site located on Ravenshoe Road) - (?!?!) The writing style is simplistic and filled with the author’s creative embellishments (example: Faryon has Christine talking to the storeowner about her new recorder before buying some gum) – (?!?!)

So… avoid this one. It just muddies the already silted waters.
 
Behavioural profiling is tough, no doubt.

This case presents particular difficulties.

I agree that killers fall into organized/disorganized categories, but rather than polar absolutes, their personalities/styles run on a continuum, in my opinion.

The kidnapping, being so "clean" could be the result of a slow, methodical plot...but I do not want to give the monster too much credit, as there was an element of luck and a large one.

The way the murder was committed, and I'm giving credit to the poster who identified it as a "loss of control" and "disorganized"...it could be seen as just that, IMHO.

Woodland, I do like your linkage with the Silverman and Brown cases. I cannot put my finger on why, exactly, but I do. Particularly Silverman. Of course, if there is truth to this, the killer would be older than has been previously suggested.

Dr Edward Blake, who led the team to produce the 1995 DNA profile, said there was inconclusive results that a second person raped Christine. He found enough of a second profile to say that, and there was no opportunity for a second shot down the road.

While Debbie was found on a lot on Concession 3, it is a coincidence that the location is the same coordinates from the nearest corner as Christine. It would have been easier to leave Debbie on the other side of Concession 3. Another coincidence is Bathurst St in Toronto, where she was abducted from, runs straight to Queensville (with few traffic lights then) and Debbie's panties were left at the abduction site.

Debbie's case also somewhat resembles Sharon Pryor in Quebec though. Sharon and Debbie were both left at private beekeeping sites where a gate had to be opened for a vehicle to drive in. That seems like a small world to me. Sharon has a thread on WS.
 
Awesome, Dedpanman. Thanks.


Yes, that story sounded authentic to me, too. It's been a long time since I read Redrum, so I couldn't remember if that story was in there or not, so thanks again.

I wonder what would have happened if the police had taken this incident more seriously. Polgar took the initiative to call them, and stopped at the scene of that car at considerable risk to himself if it was actually the killer.

If a composite was created that might have been helpful.

I don't know what to make of the Horwood sighting in Queensville, but if the police had created a composite, a comparison could have been done with one supplied by Polgar.

I wonder who that man he saw was, and what he was up to.
 
One other thing...with all the rich detail Polgar provided, I wonder why he didn't get the man's license plate number.

It seems that the man "blinked" first and took off before Polgar. The story is very odd, like so many others in this case.

Sorry to keep harping on about this issue, but it seems like it could have been an important clue.

I wonder if Polgar is still alive, and if he has been reinterviewed about what he saw.
 
Dr Edward Blake, who led the team to produce the 1995 DNA profile, said there was inconclusive results that a second person raped Christine. He found enough of a second profile to say that, and there was no opportunity for a second shot down the road.

While Debbie was found on a lot on Concession 3, it is a coincidence that the location is the same coordinates from the nearest corner as Christine. It would have been easier to leave Debbie on the other side of Concession 3. Another coincidence is Bathurst St in Toronto, where she was abducted from, runs straight to Queensville (with few traffic lights then) and Debbie's panties were left at the abduction site.

Debbie's case also somewhat resembles Sharon Pryor in Quebec though. Sharon and Debbie were both left at private beekeeping sites where a gate had to be opened for a vehicle to drive in. That seems like a small world to me. Sharon has a thread on WS.

Wondering if the perp(s) might have attended a hockey game in Montreal,or a school, or made a delivery near where Sharron Prior lived ?..
Sharron Prior Murdered/1975 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Some extra details here, including a description of potential perp, 6 foot dark haired, blue eyes, squared moustache, also some details of victim mirror those of C Jessop(imo)
http://www.defrostingcoldcases.com/the-point-st-charles-nightmare-the-1975-murder-of-sharron-prior/
 
I don't know what to make of the Horwood sighting in Queensville, but if the police had created a composite, a comparison could have been done with one supplied by Polgar.

I wonder who that man he saw was, and what he was up to.

A reminder on the Horwood sighting - if one is to wonder about this sighting as a possibility, then the scenario by Mangano on the recent Fifth Estate episode has to be ignored.

If one wants to entertain Mangano's abducted from the park theory from that episode, then the Horwood sighting has to be dropped as Mangano blew it apart.

There is no combination that will allow for both.
 
Dotr - the more I read about Sharon Pryor, the more I can see Christine as well as Debbie Silverman.

Bees - what service does a beekeeper, or all beekeepers need? I don't know the answer to that.

Christine's neighbour had bees - first time I realized that similarity.
 
I get very mixed up with all the Queensville details.

Thanks for refreshing my memory, Woodland.

I strongly believe that her abduction was from home, as well, so yes, that would rule out the Horwood sighting.
 
For whatever reason, though, I think that the Polgar sighting on the Fourth Concession was connected to this.

The unknown man was obviously up to something, and it seems to me, at least on the surface, that Gabriel Polgar came face to face with the killer.

That being said, I'll give two caveats.

One, if he was thinking of dumping her remains at that site down the road from the Culls', that would likely mean that he has no connection to their property.

If this sighting happened "a few days after her disappearance", and she was indeed in the car trunk, I think an odour would have been apparent to Polgar, unless she was somehow preserved.
 
If Christine was already deceased and Polgar was witnessing the killer placing her body on the 4th Concession, then was she kept somewhere else following the abduction?

If this was a sighting of Christine, could she have been kept alive for a time after her abduction, accounting for no noticeable odor?
 
For consideration:

SCENARIO C - (EXPANDED)

1. Christine was abducted from an unknown location.

2. She was transported to a secondary location. This secondary location was either property closely associated with the killer or property where he was known to frequent (or perhaps even property owned by the killer). This is why the killer had to take her body to another spot (the Culls’ property) in order to dispose of her. It was too risky and incriminating to leave her at this secondary location. What is the evidence for this? Read on…

3. At this secondary location, her clothing, or some clothing was removed – specifically, her panties. Christine may have resisted at this point and this is when she sustained the two blows to the upper part of her head (not to be confused with the massive facial injury).

4. She was sexually assaulted.

5. Christine was re-clothed, and in the process, her panties got semen on them. She may even have been given a turtleneck sweater to put on. (Remember: a grey/beige turtleneck sweater was found at the Sunderland field – but none of the Jessops recalled her ever owning a sweater like that.)

6. At some point after the sexual assault, she was tortured by repeated stabbing (causing the cuts in the clothing and the blood stains). This would have caused extreme pain and terror and perhaps this is where things got really out of control and the killer struck her in the face causing the massive fractures to the facial bones.

She was still alive (but probably unconscious) at this point, and the killer now realized that he needed to kill her, so he drowned her in a body of water nearby, perhaps a pond or stream (causing diatoms to be absorbed through her lungs into her blood stream and taking up residence in her bone marrow and causing the pink teeth). The killer may have used this same body of water to wash off the blood he had almost certainly gotten on himself.

7. Christine’s lifeless body (but not skeletonised) was brought to the Sunderland field shortly thereafter. The length of time after death can be debated but I think it was probably done at the first opportunity as the search for her was really heating up and the media circus was going into full swing. The longer she remains at this secondary site, the riskier it is for him.

8. At the Culls’ property, Christine was laid out on the ground amongst the cedars just off the tractor trail. Why this spot? Because the killer was planning on indulging in a few more fantasies and needed some privacy for this – as opposed to being out in the open. The surrounding cedars and tall goldenrod provided this cover.

This scenario also explains why there was no blood found in the soil around the body once it was found because most of the bleeding had occurred elsewhere (the secondary site) and any blood remaining in the body would have pooled to the lowest parts of the body. Since she was dead – any further cuts to the body would not produce very much bleeding.

9. The killer removed her clothing – and the panties with the semen on them end up beside the body. The upper body clothing was pulled over her head and left that way because her face – with the damage it had sustained – was no longer pleasant to look at. Plus, her eyes may have been open and what he wanted to do then would be more difficult if she was watching him. Perhaps some part of his mind that was still vaguely human was beginning to feel the faint stirrings of guilt?

10. The killer posed Christine’s naked body with her legs spread apart in a degrading way – like the killer was saying to the world, or to whoever found her – look at what I did to her (the sexual assault). There may have been a second sexual assault on her body at this point or perhaps just masturbation.

11. The killer indulged in a post-mortem attempt at chest intrusion and decapitation. This was a further attempt to defile the body and make its discovery as shocking as possible to whoever found it.

12. The killer, if he did not already masturbate, did so now because of the thrill and excitement, and then he left.

13. Sometime later, long after her body had been found and removed by police, the killer returned to the body dump site to reminisce about what he had done, after all, he was in the clear as GPM had been arrested and charged. The killer was thrilled to discover how inept the police had been – because he discovered one of Christine’s bones had been left behind. The killer searched around and found a few more. Then he created a little pile with the bones – a kind of “ha-ha – you missed me” message, and left.
 
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