CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

[Woodland]

I can agree with scenario C for the most part, but a few of the things we know, or think we know, are not accounted for.

8. Not sure stab wounds to Christine's upper body would cause her to completely bleed out at the secondary location. Other decomp material was not present at the Sunderland site as far as we know. While she was skinny, some body fat existed and other body fluids are associated with decomp.

10. Dr Blake's statement of a partial second DNA profile from the semen has to be discounted or included. After decomp has occurred, how can one tell how many someone was raped by the same person?

13. Based on the study posted recently, a body is either scattered by scavenging animals or if left alone, the bones will not be in disarray.
What are the chances the killer found stray bones at the Sunderland site first and put them in a pile for someone to find later? Could the bones have been brought there later from another site? This would account for the lack of decomp material and the disarray of the upper torso bones - ie she did not decompose at the Sunderland site.

 

[Woodland]

One more thought on the Polgar sighting.

If this was the killer and he had placed Christine in the bush on Concession 4, he then had to have picked her back up after he was seen. Or he had not yet taken her from the vehicle.

He then had to have gone to the Cull property - but when driving up the path and seeing a car parked there, why did he carry on? What made him think there was no one there? If this was the killer, why didn't he just go to the Cull property if he knew it was safe?

 

[DueSouth]

Good points, Woodland.

We do not know what way the vehicle of the unknown male (U.M.) was facing, nor is it clear at least from what I remember, what direction Polgar was travelling.

Did Polgar go in the same direction as the man?

Was this on the north or south side of the concession?

I have a feeling that if the man went into the woods with CJ's body and came out to find Polgar standing there, he would have experienced some kind of panic-stricken reaction.

With her body still in the trunk, he had an "out". He left no visible evidence behind.

Polgar could have easily gone into the woods to see what the man had done in there.

If he left CJ's body in there, gambling that he could come back later and move it, he was either the luckiest or boldest killer in history, IMHO.

 

[DueSouth]

It's been an interesting exercise, trying to figure out what this was all about, and how it fits in to the case.

-The U.M. could have been dumping garbage, looking for plants or trees to cut down, or simply have been looking to relieve himself and was embarassed and irritated by Polgar.

-This sighting may never have happened or have been greatly embellished, although I tend not to think so, (see Dedpanman's comments).

-Why Polgar didn't check the woodlot is not stated either, although I would imagine fear had a lot to do with it.

-This lead is now obviously pretty stale after 28 years. I do realize that it was one of those leads that would have been a lot more useful if the case had occurred weeks or months ago, rather than decades.

 

[dotr]

I was looking for a correlation between chlorinated water and pink teeth (suggesting to me a bathroom drowning) and found this link instead..
http://www.medwelljournals.com/fulltext/?doi=rjbsci.2011.124.127

"THE POST-MORTEM PHENOMENON OF PINK TEETH

The phenomenon of post-mortem pink teeth has been reported in subjects who have died suddenly and unnaturally and whose bodies have been subsequently exposed to a moist environment. In this phenomenon, the dentine is coloured because whilst the enamel remains unaffected. The pink coloration of teeth gets particularly deep towards the cemento-enamel junction, fading off but still visible beneath the enamel (Van Wyk, 1988, 1989; Campobasso et al., 2006; Whittaker et al., 1976).

It is described intra tooth variation in that some teeth were affected mainly in the coronal dentine while in others the root dentine was mostly affected. Almost all researches report a time delay between death and the formation of pink teeth. The post-mortem finding of pink teeth is a pathologic sign that remains may have been in a specific environment for a prolonged duration".



Snip.

"The phenomenon was more pronounced in younger individuals. Soriano et al. (2009) presented in a case report findings that suggested strangulation as the cause of death. All teeth presented the pink teeth phenomenon. The pink discolouration was most pronounced at the neck of the teeth.

CONCLUSION

Due to the different circumstances in which pink teeth have been observed and the diverse results obtained on either experimental and/or real cases studied, it can be concluded that no specific correlation exists between the formation of the phenomenon and the cause of death. The formation of pink teeth is a recurring phenomenon and remarkably unpredictable since the ante-mortem prerequisites are non-specific and can be replaced by certain post-mortem conditions. Thus, there is no single satisfactory explanation for pink teeth in the forensic literature. So, it must not be considered as specific forensic evidence (Borrman et al., 1994; Ortmann and DuChesne, 1998"

 

[Dedpanman]

Good points, Woodland.

We do not know what way the vehicle of the unknown male (U.M.) was facing, nor is it clear at least from what I remember, what direction Polgar was travelling.

Did Polgar go in the same direction as the man?

Was this on the north or south side of the concession?

I have a feeling that if the man went into the woods with CJ's body and came out to find Polgar standing there, he would have experienced some kind of panic-stricken reaction.

With her body still in the trunk, he had an "out". He left no visible evidence behind.

Polgar could have easily gone into the woods to see what the man had done in there.

If he left CJ's body in there, gambling that he could come back later and move it, he was either the luckiest or boldest killer in history, IMHO.

Polgar travelled East to Regional Road 2, then turned north and pulled over and stopped because he thought the man was following him in his car - but the blue car never appeared at the intersection (of the Fourth Concession and Regional Road 2) and Polgar just continued on his way.

 

[DueSouth]

Kind of fits, doesn't it?

If the man was going east, he could have stopped at the body site, no? Does that make sense?

I thought the U.M. took off first. If that is the case, why would Polgar think he was being followed?

 

[Dedpanman]

Due to the different circumstances in which pink teeth have been observed and the diverse results obtained on either experimental and/or real cases studied, it can be concluded that no specific correlation exists between the formation of the phenomenon and the cause of death. The formation of pink teeth is a recurring phenomenon and remarkably unpredictable since the ante-mortem prerequisites are non-specific and can be replaced by certain post-mortem conditions. Thus, there is no single satisfactory explanation for pink teeth in the forensic literature. So, it must not be considered as specific forensic evidence (Borrman et al., 1994; Ortmann and DuChesne, 1998"

I agree, but when you combine the pink teeth with the presence of diatoms in her bone marrow, the drowning scenario becomes much more viable and should have been investigated further. (And why it wasn't explored at the second autopsy is beyond me.) Also - diatoms would not be present in chlorinated water. You would find them in streams, ponds, lakes, etc. See post# 917 (The mystery of the pink teeth deepens).

 

[Dedpanman]

Kind of fits, doesn't it?

If the man was going east, he could have stopped at the body site, no? Does that make sense?

I thought the U.M. took off first. If that is the case, why would Polgar think he was being followed?

The U.M. took off first, and Polgar continued on his way East to Regional Road 2 - looked in his rearview mirror and saw headlights - so he thought the guy had turned around and was coming after him. Polgar reached RR2, turned left (north) and pulled over. The car he saw in his rearview mirror never appeared.

Did it turn down the tractor trail that led to the body dump site?
Did it turn into a driveway?
Did it even exist?

(shrug)

 

[DueSouth]

I recall another incident from Redrum1st ed., that I think is worth mentioning.

Since I do not have a copy, I'm going to have to appeal to someone who does for the quote. lease:

This incident was really peculiar. Again, I am going from the details I remember.

It happened early in the book, and occurred just after CJ's disappearance, during the initial search.

Some searchers came across a barn in the Queensville area. I recall the environment in the barn being chilling, with chains hanging from the rafters, etc.

There were references to women's clothing, strange poems or graffiti, including some nonsensical phrases.

I also remember that the police glossed over this as well.

Apparently someone who had once worked in Saudi Arabia had rented the barn, and given some odd story about writing about loneliness and despair, or something of that nature.

I just thought this should be brought up. The weirdness with this incident had almost an exotic quality to it, although it may be nothing at all.

Just wondering about everyone else's thoughts if the quote can be found.

 

[Woodland]

There is a reference to this on RR Revised Edition on page 35.

It's a bit of a hodge podge of information - '... a couple of kids came running into the Jessop house waving a diary they had found in a large barn in the field down in a gully across from the Jessops.'

The farm was rented by a man who had worked in Saudi Arabia. His diary contained his writing of loneliness and despair, the barn apparently contained clothing worn by Arabic men in SA and an 'altar like thing', there were strange phrases painted on the walls and a spider web made of fishing line - both created by an artist as a monument to a failed love.

The barn was about 140 years old, was spongy underfoot from decomposing hay and had rusty chains and pulleys in one corner.

While it is weird, a York Region investigator did look around but found nothing to indicate any of this was related to Christine.

 

[DueSouth]

Thanks, Woodland.

Yes, I guess that I am falling into the trap of equating strangeness with criminality. Odd behaviour can be a marker indicating that someone should be looked into further, but I guess when any other evidence is not forthcoming, one must move on.

However, I do think it was worth investigating.

I do remember this incident, and I do recall that a York Region officer surveyed the barn, and found the story behind it "improbable", if I'm recalling correctly.

I'm curious if they did a background check on the individual who rented the farm.

 

[Woodland]

With so many unsolved cases in this world, it's now my opinion that the last thing a killer does is behave in a weird way. They seem to either blend into the background well, or become larger than life (well known in their community, celeb type etc) to keep suspicion away from themselves. Smart.

 

[DueSouth]

Good point.

Unless of course they are so far gone due to mental illness.

Or, in the of this barn, the "weirdness" was hidden behind closed doors. JMHO.

**Note, I am not suggesting that this barn or the renter was connected to the case, but I'm just illustrating a point.

 

[DueSouth]

Upon reflection, I think what got me on to this was the idea of a ritual being somehow involved in the crime.

The murder seemed almost "ritualistic", what with the body positioning, what was done to Christine, etc.

I guess the barn scene looked like somewhere where bizarre rituals were performed, with that altar, and the other objects there.

Again, there is no confirmed link at all, so I'm not jumping to conclusions at all.

If anyone can think of anything else on this topic, go ahead by all means. Otherwise, I'll shift gears.

 

[Chorley8]

Upon reflection, I think what got me on to this was the idea of a ritual being somehow involved in the crime.

The murder seemed almost "ritualistic", what with the body positioning, what was done to Christine, etc.

I guess the barn scene looked like somewhere where bizarre rituals were performed, with that altar, and the other objects there.

Again, there is no confirmed link at all, so I'm not jumping to conclusions at all.

If anyone can think of anything else on this topic, go ahead by all means. Otherwise, I'll shift gears.

I don't think you need to switch gears though I think that both what you and WL say here can be correct. There is a ritualistic element to the crime for sure but that doesn't mean "he" isn't smart and can't hide that. Even everyday criminals sometimes do ritualistic things like defecating at a crime scene which is both a. an insult and b. a gift, reparation a making of amends however bizarre.

The SA barn fellow is worth looking at again but many individuals could exhibit ritualistic behaviour and hide their strangeness most or all of the time.

The hatred this person felt for Christine they also feel for "us" it would seem they expected Christine to be found much sooner and relished the idea of the shock and the shock comes from the confrontation of the everyday i.e. a a fall walk a visit to the trailer with the horrific find. One possibility is that they observed the frequency of visits to the trailer during summer months and mistakenly though these continued through the fall.

The pile of bones is a sort of small 'cairn' or temple a small expiatory chapel to Christine.

 

[DueSouth]

Thanks, Chorley8.

If someone gets a chance to post the whole quote, that would be great.

I remember getting the chills when I read the details of the scene in the barn.

It appeared that it was possibly the work of someone suffering from schizophrenia, due to the use of neologisms (made up words) and disjointed thinking in the poetry and graffiti. (Again, I am working from memory here).

If it was someone who suffered from a mental illness and had nothing to do with the crime, so be it.

I also do not claim to be an art expert, so if this stuff was avant garde art (I remember it being called that), I guess that's legitimate too.

I wonder who would leave a diary lying around in a barn?

Just thinking that for our purposes here, it is worth that second look.

 

[Woodland]

I will post the few paragraphs from RR Revised Edition for you Darkblue, but would like to preface that with my opinions on the contents of this barn.

While the word 'ritualistic' has been used by some to describe the way Christine was found, imo it was an affront. An affront to the sensibilities of decent people and meant to be an affront.

If you spend time in the Middle East, as I have, you witness many cultural rituals - some daily and others throughout the year. Prayers, Ramadan, Eid etc. They are a good thing and they somewhat become part of your daily life by being surrounded by them. These rituals mean something and are never missed or ignored by the people born and raised into them. I can see some people adopting some sort of ritual upon returning home (to keep them grounded?) and every expatriate that spends time in the Middle East brings home a set of the traditional garb - it's almost a ritual in itself. Jmo.

 

[Woodland]

On second thought Darkblue, will elaborate a bit instead - it's runs the better part of a page and includes a lot of fluffy stuff - 'Agitated birds flapped their wings up in the rafters'. Who cares.

Other drama, imo '... the writing Lundgren and Hood noticed on the walls was positively blood-curdling. Cryptic sentences and demented verses were crammed together on the chipped and discoloured concrete foundation walls. "Finally see the Bird Disappears", one said, tailing away into illegibility. "Read the Words. The Words are Hidden." Another said: "Bark at night ... too impossible to survive ... Desire and Fear." Many of the writings were unreadable and some seemed to be in a made-up language. "Parrathahass Tutinameh," said one. The most readable scrawling was somehow the most malevolent - probably because it clearly seemed to be the work of a madman. "A Purple Bird Comes Eventually to Village," it said. "Cheese vendors, meat market baker, life. All the houses are pink with shutters. Bird parading itself in same cafe where all village folk go to have their peppers. They are setting up marketplace right in the street."

'Lundgren and Hood located a man who rented the farmhouse about a hundred metres from the barn. He gave the appearance of being highly embarrassed and explained that he recently lived in Saudi Arabia.'
________________________________________________

My comment - the part that follows the 'writings being that of a madman' are clearly a reference to life in the Middle East - one has to live there for a time to understand it.

 

[DueSouth]

As a disclaimer, I meant no disrespect to anyone of Middle Eastern origin, nor of the Muslim religion.

By "ritualistic", I meant a ritual of unknown origin...it is speculative what, if any ritual, formal or informal, went on here.

Since it was so long since I read Redrum, I had forgotten that the clothing found was of Middle Eastern origin.

I thought it was simply women's clothing.

I hope I was not being offensive in any way.

Thanks for that, Woodland.

For me it is hard to interpret what the individual was trying to say, though.

It seems that Makin did make it very dramatic, but it still is highly unusual. JMO.