CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

[orora]

Hey more attention on the Highway of tears is a great thing. I hope many more will gravitate to the appropriate threads after the show. Perhaps a link can be posted here to those threads?

As far as Kjessop on here, last I was aware ken and admin were going through the process to validate his id. Ken responded saying he was complying then silence from both sides. Perhaps admin could enlighten us as to the progress so we can make some better determinations? I don't know how often that sort of thing occurs but I suspect it would be highly unusual for a poster in a situation as this to be an imposter.

I would like to see him given a chance to add whatever he can. Perhaps even he is not aware some little piece he holds could make the difference.

 

[bessie]

Guys, I'm afraid I don't have an update for you yet. The matter is still pending.

 

[orora]

Thanks for that anyway Bessie. I will still believe kjessop is who he says he is unless proven otherwise. I believe he has other things to deal with in his life and I think maybe all the questions get a bit too much. It is difficult to speak around him or for him here. He was young himself at the time and has had to deal with this all his life with no resolution. Some details and some questions are no doubt troubling. The entire weight and onus to solve his sister's murder need not be placed entirely on his shoulders. He is but one of many with parts and pieces to add. I believe his input to be important but perhaps he is not up to complete participation and we have to take from it what we can.

 

[KJessop]

Sorry, have just sent a message to the adming to call me tonight. Living on the shore of lake erie close to buffalo sometimes plays havoc with the signal. Haven't been online for a bit just due to life. I have read the questions raised and will try to answer... After I have been verified. So to take that question out of the equation.

 

[KJessop]

I have been verified, as you can see. Hopefully that debate is over. Now, the info in the book changes with every version issued. You want to see track down all versions and updates. The issue I have seen in the discrepancies in how she was found are due to the confusing of the results of the two autopsies.

 

[kemo]

I have finally obtained and completed Redrum and I feel, at this point, up to speed. The book seems to be the definitive reference. It is concerned with the story of how an innocent man came to be convicted of murder but it doesn’t address, except perhaps in passing, the question of “who really did it”. Markin seems to feel that the original investigation was hopelessly compromised by purging all evidence that didn’t support the “Morin did it” line so that standard “Cold Case” techniques (of re-working evidence in the case file) would not work. Re-interviewing witnesses at this point seems pointless since so much time has passed and memories have faded. Still, anytime there is DNA there is hope.

A few observations I have made that might further this discussion along:
1) Janet’s accounting of her activities after she arrived home doesn’t quite jibe with that accepted fact that “CJ went to play with Leslie in the park every day after school”. The park wasn’t the first place she looked. Ken, you said CJ and Leslie were not “best friends” at the time. Perhaps there never was a “play-date”. Going to the Store and then back to the house makes no sense if she was to then go to the park, but if she really had no plans to go to the park, other possibilities exist.
2) I’m a bicyclist and I’ve had a few “mishaps”. I think I could tell whether any particular damage on a bike was caused by an accident while riding it or through some sort of mis-handling. Knowing which it was, and the extent of the damage, would give a key starting point. A 40 pound child just can’t mis-handle a bike that much. Apparently there are no photos of the bike; perhaps they were trashed because the theory of the crime was that CJ went to GPM to show off her recorder.
3) I just can’t see someone, acquaintance or stranger, devising a plan to abduct CJ from her house. This would be quite visible to anyone of the Morins and they wouldn’t be sure that both KJ and JJ would not be there are arrive during the abduction. Even if they knew of the dental appointment, how would they know when they would be back? On the other hand, if someone went to the house to visit Janet (or perhaps Ken) and found CJ home alone, someone might do something impulsive. Who might have paid a visit?
4) The Shopkeeper’s report that CJ came to the store before 4:00 is not rock solid but it is pretty strong. I doubt CJ would have walked to the store and back home again for $.05 worth of candy, (and, as Dedpanman has pointed out, she really didn’t have the time) but if she was going somewhere else (not to the park to play with Leslie and their dolls) there would be opportunity for some stranger to snatch her off the street. This can be done very quickly. It is usually disorganized, young perps who try this but it is not all that rare, particularly with very young children.

.

 

[bessie]

I have been verified, as you can see. Hopefully that debate is over. Now, the info in the book changes with every version issued. You want to see track down all versions and updates. The issue I have seen in the discrepancies in how she was found are due to the confusing of the results of the two autopsies.

Yes, it is official. KJessop is a verified insider in the Christine Jessop case.

Once again, welcome to WS, KJessop. Thanks for posting with us.

 

[KJessop]

I have finally obtained and completed Redrum and I feel, at this point, up to speed. The book seems to be the definitive reference. It is concerned with the story of how an innocent man came to be convicted of murder but it doesn’t address, except perhaps in passing, the question of “who really did it”. Markin seems to feel that the original investigation was hopelessly compromised by purging all evidence that didn’t support the “Morin did it” line so that standard “Cold Case” techniques (of re-working evidence in the case file) would not work. Re-interviewing witnesses at this point seems pointless since so much time has passed and memories have faded. Still, anytime there is DNA there is hope.
Which version did you read? Makin wrote it to became famous.. The truth didn't matter. Read the intro, where he didn't have proof he admitted to taking "creative licence" Which means he made stuff up to fit what he thought would sell. The only true recounting, or as close to the truth is the 2 volume Kaufman report.The cops were forced to talk. The book assumed what they said and were thinking. Remember, The 2nd trial hadn't even started and Makin received a huge bonus for the movie rights. So he made with that in mind. When Alliance started to fact check the book for a screenplay, they found out. Never seen a movie have you....

A few observations I have made that might further this discussion along:
1) Janet’s accounting of her activities after she arrived home doesn’t quite jibe with that accepted fact that “CJ went to play with Leslie in the park every day after school”. The park wasn’t the first place she looked. Ken, you said CJ and Leslie were not “best friends” at the time. Perhaps there never was a “play-date”. Going to the Store and then back to the house makes no sense if she was to then go to the park, but if she really had no plans to go to the park, other possibilities exist.
She went to the park a lot. as did I.... My mother naver said there was a play date, as we weren't home yet and didn't know. My mom checked the park, store, friends houses etc.
2) I’m a bicyclist and I’ve had a few “mishaps”. I think I could tell whether any particular damage on a bike was caused by an accident while riding it or through some sort of mis-handling. Knowing which it was, and the extent of the damage, would give a key starting point. A 40 pound child just can’t mis-handle a bike that much. Apparently there are no photos of the bike; perhaps they were trashed because the theory of the crime was that CJ went to GPM to show off her recorder.
Bike was never reported damaged, we reported it thrown on its side. She never laid it down as it was her pride and joy

3) I just can’t see someone, acquaintance or stranger, devising a plan to abduct CJ from her house. This would be quite visible to anyone of the Morins and they wouldn’t be sure that both KJ and JJ would not be there are arrive during the abduction. Even if they knew of the dental appointment, how would they know when they would be back? On the other hand, if someone went to the house to visit Janet (or perhaps Ken) and found CJ home alone, someone might do something impulsive. Who might have paid a visit?

4) The Shopkeeper’s report that CJ came to the store before 4:00 is not rock solid but it is pretty strong. I doubt CJ would have walked to the store and back home again for $.05 worth of candy, (and, as Dedpanman has pointed out, she really didn’t have the time) but if she was going somewhere else (not to the park to play with Leslie and their dolls) there would be opportunity for some stranger to snatch her off the street. This can be done very quickly. It is usually disorganized, young perps who try this but it is not all that rare, particularly with very young children.
The amount of candy was never officially known. It was started by a reporter who thought it would make it more shocking small towney to add a little girls amount Remember you could get 5 pieces of gum for 5 cents then. As I have said, it was someone that knew her, knew my dad was in jail and knew we went to visit him that day.

 

[orora]

Hi Ken, good to see you back. Gotta suck to have to keep coming back to answer to all this time after time. Lots of misunderstandings everywhere and as you say even Makin had other motives than just finding the truth.

Facts are slim to non existant and can be built on in many different ways. Hopefully once through this will suffice. Good to hear the bike damage explanation. It has been an issue right from the start. The store visit will no doubt be coming up again. Apparently the store owner doesn't recall your mom coming in to look for Christine? If true that he said that, what do you make of that? Do you still believe Christine made it there herself as he claims?

Staying with the earlier events, I read somewhere that someone living at the store confessed at one time? If true what was that all about? Did you know that guy?

Seems there was maybe one half hour of opportunity at most for everything that took place that afternoon. Awfull coincidental timing!

 

[KJessop]

Hi Ken, good to see you back. Gotta suck to have to keep coming back to answer to all this time after time. Lots of misunderstandings everywhere and as you say even Makin had other motives than just finding the truth.

Facts are slim to non existant and can be built on in many different ways. Hopefully once through this will suffice. Good to hear the bike damage explanation. It has been an issue right from the start. The store visit will no doubt be coming up again. Apparently the store owner doesn't recall your mom coming in to look for Christine? If true that he said that, what do you make of that? Do you still believe Christine made it there herself as he claims?
The store owner gave a statement to the police on oct 4 1984 stating Christine was in the store and that my mother came in looking. His statement wasn't questioned at the first trial. When the second trial came around he couldn't remember as he was in a home dieing of cancer and Basil Mangano the private dick for the defence snuck into the home showing his old police badge. So it was leaked to Makin at the second trial that he didn't remember. And away the rumour went. During the pretrial motions Mangano was brought before the judge because he was also intimidating witness's claiming he was a cop... Never read that in the book did ya.

Staying with the earlier events, I read somewhere that someone living at the store confessed at one time? If true what was that all about? Did you know that guy?

No one has ever confessed. If they did do you not think that would be Morins whole defence at the second trial.

Seems there was maybe one half hour of opportunity at most for everything that took place that afternoon. Awful coincidental timing!

Like I said, he knew my dad was gone, could look toward the store and see her on the bike.. Drive up and wait for her but at the end of the driveway in case my mom and I came home... If we did he could just ask about the chickens, how my dad was doing etc.

I don't mind answering questions that I know about. 28 yrs later and there are petty arguments here about how she was found... I know how. Have seen the pics. If you want to know... Now that I have been verified.... Believe me. Or don't. That is up to you. The book was sensationalist garbage. Read all versions and see what changes are made by the updates.
I have had a better insight than anyone. I know what happened to my fam. To GPM's family.. The cops deceit and corruption. You now know for sure it is me. What I say is the truth. Why the hell would I lie or make anything up. Has that been done enough in this case? All I want is the truth out there, The truth to come out. What I say IS fact, I am not making any money here, no book deal, no movie deal, and I don't know any of you so I am not trying to find blind followers. Forget the damn book. Read the inquiry findings. You find the truth there. There is no creative licence taken.
Thank You
Ken Jessop...VERIFIED

 

[KJessop]

If you read closely I answered orora's questions in her quote.... Sorry

 

[KJessop]

Is the detective Kjessop (under a different moniker on UC) says was the father of the abusers of him and other kids in QV the same detective involved in the Sharin Keenan case who 1. said Sharin was lured by a one dollar bill (on the W5 show this makes Sharin's Mom visibly angry she thinks it is a ludicrous theory) and 2. went on the fishing expedition with Dennys Melvin Howe associate drinking buddy OH out west supposedly to look for someone matching Howe's description? They failed to go to Prince Albert where the Pen is and where Howe had been.

For anyone who doesn't know the case Dotr recently found an article from a Lethbridge Alberta newspaper and linked to it on the discussion about Sharin Morningstar Keenan it outlines the trip out west.

Only the last name is given on UC and it is possible I am mixing something up here but I don't think so.

By the way just want to state clearly we don't know whether the poster here is Christine's brother same thing on UC also these are of course his allegations so I am not dissing the Toronto detective or his sons but as I understand it these are Christine's brothers allegations (not proven etc). And I don't know for sure if it is the same person but the name if not super common and same police force supposing all of this info (KJessops and media's) is accurate which it may or may not be of course.

To clarify, there was no abuse in queensville., The abuse involving Christine ended two years b4 moving to queensville. The abuse with me lasted until we moved. Our abuser only had us simulate things and it didn't work for him, so it went back to just me. I say simulate because I was only 8-9 years old and to be painfully blunt.. Couldn't acheive an erection. This is this most direct I have ever been. Sorry if it offends but I am tired of speculation. I was abused for 5 years.. The proof is in the files that I found out it was wrong just b4 moving to queensville from a babysitter. Its there for all to see.

I got my retractions for the misreporting of my testimony from the Toronto sun, chch cfto among others. I have the sun articles and can produce them if need be. But enough. This case is enough of a cluster****** without speculation. Lets deal in facts people. Or this group becomes nothing more than ego masturbation.
Thanks for reading
Ken Jessop

 

[Dedpanman]

These questions are in regards to post #1132...

KJessop... the answers to the following questions could help us flesh out the abduction scenario you’re describing. If you wouldn't mind...?

1. Does the scenario I sketched out above (post #1132) seem to be close to the one you have in your mind? Where do you disagree or where does your thinking diverge?

2. Do you think that there is any possibility that JP took Christine to his house before leaving town with her? (I’m thinking no – as JP’s daughters would probably have been home from school by then if they had observed his car at the end of the Jessop driveway as they were heading north (?) on a bus - but I'm wondering about your thoughts.)

3. I have not seen the Fifth Estate episode “Odd Man Out” so I don’t know the details about the man who saw the incident in the blue car at Ravenshoe Road. What was the approximate time of that?

4. Do you have any inside information concerning other related-but-unreported crimes JP committed prior to Christine - or after that you could share here? (This would help us flesh out a suspect profile for him. You don’t have to name names of victims.)

Thanks in advance.

 

[jobo]

Orora, you are correct about the subject of the store coming up again....I am now questioning the storekeeper's story even more. Are you saying he remembers Christine coming in that DAY but doesn't remember Mom coming in later asking about her?
No wonder I don't believe any witness accounts.

It is 750 meters from the house to the store, I am not so sure the perp would see Christine on her bike that far away and determine it was her, especially if there was other kids around.
Not that I am trying to argue, Towser....but that is what I have done all along, pick apart the witness accounts, the timing....I cannot count them as facts, except for the time Christine got off the bus. 3:45/3:50p.m.

I am not so sure I want to read any of the books, if the author(s) took 'creative licence'....I was trying to read the Kaufman report, but I haven't read all of it. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the report the times are talked about, and nothing is written in stone there either.

 

[Woodland]

On the 'creative license' by Makin.

In the first edition acknowledgments Makin says 'It is also important to state, then, that the vast majority of the quotes are verbatim - derived from transcripts, tapes, documents or interviews. On rare occasions, thoughts or words have been attributed to a particular character in the interests of narrative flow or dramatic colouring. The license taken is extremely minimal, and great care has been taken to confine these instances to those in which the statement is innocuous, and logic or other information indicates this is what the character did, indeed, think or say.

The statement is repeated in the revised edition. There are only two Redrum books by Makin.

While some facts may differ from the KR (found face up vs face down), Kaufman left out many details that Makin covered. Kaufman was not investigating the crime of Christine's abduction, rape and murder. Makin covered the story behind what facts could be found.

I don't think Makin introduced anything in his book that can't be found somewhere.

 

[orora]

Thanks Ken, you have said some very truthful stuff which I believe will be more widely understood and accepted now.

Jobo I believe with the explanation provided by Ken in regard the store owner and his mother that there was no discrepancies as was indicated earlier.

The store owner gave a statement to the police on oct 4 1984 stating Christine was in the store and that my mother came in looking. His statement wasn't questioned at the first trial. When the second trial came around he couldn't remember as he was in a home dieing of cancer and Basil Mangano the private dick for the defence snuck into the home showing his old police badge. So it was leaked to Makin at the second trial that he didn't remember. And away the rumour went. During the pretrial motions Mangano was brought before the judge because he was also intimidating witness's claiming he was a cop... Never read that in the book did ya.

So in regard Makin and acknowledging that he is not here to say otherwise, the trial transcript has to take precedent over whatever hearsay he has published. Not saying the entire thing need be chucked but that a grain of salt is required at times in face of conflicting information. Which points that applies to will no doubt be individually debateble.

One of the very basic main points on whether Cj made it to the store that day or not has to still be entertained whether the time frame would seem to fit or not. As said, perhaps CJ had no intention going to the park or anywhere else afterwards? I believe this point that CJ was at the store has been accepted by Ken and his mother and was undisputed at the first trial?

I recall the earlier conversation in regard Atkinson the witness claiming to have seen CJ near the store that day and realize this is a subjective question, but what would happen if a person called a "media *advertiser censored*" actually did see something? How would one know the difference in behaviour from others like that such as the girl who claimed to see CJ walking her bike up the hill? One admitted making it up and never testified, the other never recanted and testified.

If CJ were at the store, it is concievable that someone should have seen her. Atkinson is one of few other than the store owner to say that.

Dedpan has questions along this line too trying to piece a trail of events and times together.

I hope that any one else with questons about this early part that Ken could maybe help with will ask.

I would ask one more about the time when Mom and Ken returned home but I read the Kaufman report on that testimony and procedure and it got to be a real cluster !@)(*& so I gave up on anyone narrowing that down long ago. But perhaps ?

 

[Woodland]

Orora could you clarify where you obtained the quote you use in your post #1187? It doesn't appear to be from a discussion here so am finding it difficult to put any context to it.

The quote is from a trial transcript? It appears to be hearsay conversation.

In both versions of RR, page 56 first edition and page 41 of the revised edition, it was 8 days after Christine disappeared that store owner said Janet J did not visit the store on 3 October - after saying JJ was at the store that day.

<modsnip>

 

[orora]

The quote is from kjessops post 1181 just prior me quoting him. Sorry figured everyone would have just read the post above mine so no need posting a link.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8571527&postcount=1181

I can't speak for Makin or Ken so will leave it there.

 

[KJessop]

As I stated already Woodland, you can believe Makins book and quote it verbatim, I prefer to look over my copies of both trial transcripts and the inquiry report. You can still order them I believe.

 

[jobo]

Just want to regress a bit here, and mention that I noticed that last week, because the weather has warmed and the sun has been out...that the flies are around again....My point is that it could be impossible to figure out insect activity back in Oct-Dec 1984. This fall the flies etc. went dormant as usual, but have come back to life lately.

I have to agree with you orora about narrowing down the times. And, I don't recall ever reading that quote you have in Post #1187 somehow I missed it...so thanks for pointing it out again.