Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
ABDUCTION SCENARIO QUESTIONS:

1. Did Christine have a house key, and did she use it to let herself into the house the day she disappeared?
Doors were unlocked
2. Was the door to the house ever left unlocked – as was common practice in small towns during that time - and was it perhaps left unlocked that day?
Same
3. Could you clarify this point? Is it correct that Christine’s bicycle was not actually damaged, it was just found in a fallen state?
It was dropped on its side
4. In your opinion, did Christine walk to the store or ride her bicycle there on October 3, 1984?
Rodw
5. Could JP have actually been in the house when Christine arrived back from the store?
He could have. But I believe he waited at the end of the driveway where the car was seen
6. Do you believe that Christine’s jacket was hung on the higher peg by the perpetrator? How sure are you about this point?
Yes… And yes
7. In your mind, is there any possibility that the jacket was innocently placed on the higher peg by someone else other than the perpetrator (a police officer/fire fighter/searcher) during that frenetic day Christine went missing?
NO
8. Where did Janet usually park her car when at home and would it have been visible from Leslie Street?
Only from the end of the driveway.
9. Do you think that the perpetrator would know by the empty driveway that Janet was not at home that day?
Yes
10. Do you believe that GPM’s sister caught a glimpse of the perpetrator’s car that day? (Yvette Morin volunteered to be hypnotized about this but few useful details emerged.)
Who freakin knows
11. Are you sure that the Horwoods, and the couple at Leslie Street and Ravenshoe Road, are one and the same?
Yes and I have proved the account stated here is wrong just on pure facts.

SUSPECT-RELATED QUESTIONS:

12. Do you suspect, or are you aware of JP’s involvement in any other homicides?
NO

13. Do you have any ideas about why the suspect perpetrated such horrific injuries to Christine (decapitation, etc.)?
He was a familial pedophile. He expected her to just take his bs…. Then freaked out.

14. Do you think that JP hated your father and that had something to do with the horrific injuries?
NO,
15. Do you feel or suspect that the horrific injuries was because Christine cried too much, or was too loud?
She fought.

16. Do you know if JP was covered in blood, or if he had any blood on him when he returned home late the night Christine vanished?
He went straight to the shower then fought with his wife about being so late.
17. Are you aware of any information that JP cleaned himself up or changed into different clothes before returning home late that day?
Answered
18. In your opinion, what could be done, or should be done to prove or disprove JP's involvement in this crime?
Exhumation
19. Do you know if JP was cremated or buried?
Buried
20. Do you know where his remains are located (cemetery)? And, if so, are you willing to reveal that location?
Yes and No
21. Do you feel that there could there be a successful legal attempt at exhumation of his body in order to perform a bone DNA comparison to the sample taken from Christine's body?
There could be based on the evidence. But it will never happen.

CRIME SCENE/AUTOPSY QUESTIONS:

22. What’s your opinion of the “diatoms found in Christine’s bone marrow and the pink teeth evidence” from the first autopsy? (This suggested that she was drowned as a cause of death but those details were dismissed by the pathologist.)
No Clue
23. Do you completely dismiss everything (facts/evidence) from the first autopsy? If not, what do you feel was correct, and what was totally wrong?
Hilsdon Smith was so hungover he couldn’t see when he did the autopsy. That’s why he missed so much. We were told this OFFICIALLY by the Attorney General when the exhumation was justified. But we were told that 6 years earlier about the bones. He was to hung to have the bones counted.
24. You have stated that Christine “was found legs splayed, sitting up, her head was balled up in her sweater,” and that “she had been decapitated.” Could you elaborate as to how she could have been found sitting up when she was described as mostly scattered bones by most accounts?
The pictures no one in the public has seen. In the prelim hearing it was presented. The bones “scattered” only came up in the second trial to explain how the bones were missed. Then in the final summation, a 2ft by 4ft pic was shown to the jury of her body as it was found. Decomp around the wounds, DECAPITATED!!!! The report from the second autopsy stated it. The first autopsy claimed animals had chewed around her neck…
25. Exactly what evidence was there that Christine was decapitated? (Was there a report or photos taken at the time that Christine's body was discovered?)
Answered…. The second autopsy found the knife cuts in the bones.

26. Do you believe that attempts to remove other parts of her body occurred based on the bisection of the sternum?
The sternum was cracked for one knife thrust.
27. Do you believe that the perpetrator was trying to dismember her for burial/disposal or to disguise the actual cause of death?
No… He lost control. He believed her body would never be found.
28. If one wanted to verify your description of how she was found, where would one have to look exactly?
Like the Bernardo tapes, you never will. You will have to get the transcript of the 1st prelim hearing where it is described in detail. I twice have seen the pics of my decapitated sister.
29. Assuming that you have a copy of this report or trial transcript, would you be willing to post that description and its source?


OTHER:

30. In your opinion, looking back, did Christine spend too much time travelling around Queensville alone? If she did spend a significant amount of time alone, do you feel that could have made her a target for abduction?
NO>>>
31. Why do you feel that police buried evidence that pointed to JP as a viable suspect then?
No, he wasn’t brought up.
32. Why do you feel that police continue to avoid looking at JP as a viable suspect today?
If they ever solve the case, it opens up the gov. to a massive lawsuit.
33. What do think their motivations are for this conspiracy?
Answered
34. What was the exact nature of the sexual abuse that Christine experienced by the brothers in Richmond Hill? Were you aware of everything that was done to her during this time, or did some things happen to Christine when you were not present?
I think I have been more than honest on this point.
35. Personally, I think this question is answered by the post it references, but here it is:
Why did you attack your father (grab his throat) as per your description in a recent post elsewhere: “The last time I saw or talked to my father was the day the inquiry results were released. When everyone with standing were waiting for their copies of the final report, my father found out he wasn't on the list, freaked, and in front of the press, police, etc. He had a childish fit... I walked him to the elevator and told him to settle down... He called me a name and I choked him by lifting him off the ground by the throat. I was pulled off by Metro cops.”
It was the last day of the inquiry. There wasn’t a hard copy for him. But there was for my mother and I. So he started making a fit. He had a temper tantrum because me mother and I got copies., I advised him to shut up… And he kept going in front of all the press and cops. So I did it. Did you ever hear about it in the press? Or was I charged?
36. What do you think your father meant when he said: “I honestly think if it hadn’t been that day it would have been another.” Did he actually say that, or was that the invention of a clever writer?
All you have to do is read my posts for this answer. He said it, my mother said it, I said it. The cops convicted Morin on the theory.

37. Was Christine ever spanked or hit by her parents as a form of discipline?
No, But who cares….
 
Once again, the group is dragged back into minutia.
From the Crown alone, there is 6 counts of what happened.
Enough.
Why?
Why not demand answers why? There is where my family is.
Not rehashing and re arguing these same points over and over again.
 
With all due respect KJ, some people in the group are looking for answers from you in order to re-paint the picture to see it your way.

With all due respect, I don't see JP as a viable suspect - the story is far to loose for me. According to you, JP came home covered in blood, went in his house with one or more family members present, showered and changed his clothes then had a fight with his wife.

No one saw the bloody clothes he was wearing? What did he do with them? No one noticed them in the garbage? If I was adding more garbage to a bag or bin, I would notice clothing due to the bulkiness, then I would notice the blood. And if my neighbors and community started a massive search for a missing girl at the same time, I would have to choose to be complicit and say nothing about bloody clothing in my home - he wasn't brought up according to you.

And if JP could not see a car in your driveway from his workplace, then him working at that location really has no bearing on anything. He had to go to the house to see who was home and who wasn't. I would be a bigger believer if you said he was not parked in plain sight in the driveway and likely parked in the cemetery where he would not be observed.

What lawsuit would LE be open to if JP was the killer?

You have said in the past that Christine was skeletal and you also claim she was found sitting up - seems at odds to me. I don't understand from your descriptions how you claim she was found.

Was part of her sternum missing or not?
 
KJessop wrote: "The pictures no one in the public has seen. In the prelim hearing it was presented. The bones “scattered” only came up in the second trial to explain how the bones were missed. Then in the final summation, a 2ft by 4ft pic was shown to the jury of her body as it was found. Decomp around the wounds, DECAPITATED!!!! The report from the second autopsy stated it. The first autopsy claimed animals had chewed around her neck…"

Woodland wrote: "You have said in the past that Christine was skeletal and you also claim she was found sitting up - seems at odds to me. I don't understand from your descriptions how you claim she was found."

The thing to do, I think, is find the source material that KJessop is referencing and see if the answers are there. I can picture how it might be possible (for her to be "skeletal" and "sitting up"), but someone needs to get their hands on the transcript of the preliminary hearing and go dig for it.

Then maybe this particular issue can be fully explained and finally put to rest.
 
Once again, the group is dragged back into minutia.
From the Crown alone, there is 6 counts of what happened.
Enough.
Why?
Why not demand answers why? There is where my family is.
Not rehashing and re arguing these same points over and over again.

We do not intend to annoy you, KJessop. This was our attempt to clean house of the minutiae - and you're really the only person who can help us do that. I think there is valuable information in your answers to our compiled questions, so thanks again.
 
With all due respect KJ, some people in the group are looking for answers from you in order to re-paint the picture to see it your way.

With all due respect, I don't see JP as a viable suspect - the story is far to loose for me. According to you, JP came home covered in blood, went in his house with one or more family members present, showered and changed his clothes then had a fight with his wife.

No one saw the bloody clothes he was wearing? What did he do with them? No one noticed them in the garbage? If I was adding more garbage to a bag or bin, I would notice clothing due to the bulkiness, then I would notice the blood. And if my neighbors and community started a massive search for a missing girl at the same time, I would have to choose to be complicit and say nothing about bloody clothing in my home - he wasn't brought up according to you.

And if JP could not see a car in your driveway from his workplace, then him working at that location really has no bearing on anything. He had to go to the house to see who was home and who wasn't. I would be a bigger believer if you said he was not parked in plain sight in the driveway and likely parked in the cemetery where he would not be observed.

What lawsuit would LE be open to if JP was the killer?

You have said in the past that Christine was skeletal and you also claim she was found sitting up - seems at odds to me. I don't understand from your descriptions how you claim she was found.

Was part of her sternum missing or not?


Quote...You have said in the past that Christine was skeletal and you also claim she was found sitting up...End of quote

That is interesting

Could that had been sitting as in a travel position? That could explain why her legs were parted and in what they said was a strange position.
Her legs were not straight out, but bent at the knees laying flat perhaps with her feet facing inward? something like this <>
 
The press all said skeletal... A lot of her flesh was decomposed around the stab wounds. But the body was in the position still.
 
The pictures were admitted in court. I saw them, my father saw them. the jury saw them. I saw them twice and never want to again. I am not mistaken. The images of my dead sister will never leave my mind. Parts of her body were down to the bones. But as the pic shown at the beginning of odd man out proves, the rest of her body was decaying, but intact. I demanded the CBC tell me where they got the pic. They would not tell me. But they assured it was real. Phone them to get the pics. I never want to see them again. Now will I pursue them just to satisfy others curiosity.
 
With all due respect KJ, some people in the group are looking for answers from you in order to re-paint the picture to see it your way.

With all due respect, I don't see JP as a viable suspect - the story is far to loose for me. According to you, JP came home covered in blood, went in his house with one or more family members present, showered and changed his clothes then had a fight with his wife.
Never said he was covered in blood... Read again
No one saw the bloody clothes he was wearing? What did he do with them? No one noticed them in the garbage? If I was adding more garbage to a bag or bin, I would notice clothing due to the bulkiness, then I would notice the blood. And if my neighbors and community started a massive search for a missing girl at the same time, I would have to choose to be complicit and say nothing about bloody clothing in my home - he wasn't brought up according to you.


And if JP could not see a car in your driveway from his workplace, then him working at that location really has no bearing on anything. He had to go to the house to see who was home and who wasn't. I would be a bigger believer if you said he was not parked in plain sight in the driveway and likely parked in the cemetery where he would not be observed.

What lawsuit would LE be open to if JP was the killer?

You have said in the past that Christine was skeletal and you also claim she was found sitting up - seems at odds to me. I don't understand from your descriptions how you claim she was found.

Was part of her sternum missing or not?

I have answered all these questions here b4. I never said her sternum was missing, it was part of a question I answered. It was split in two from the force of a knife thrust
 
As I have stated before, I am trying to correct misconceptions. I have not stated anything that can't be backed up. Even the pics i have seen I'm sure can be found. The cbc found them. But I will not. I saw them. I never want to again. And if you don't understand that. Too Bad....

I have stated that court transcripts hold what I state. Yes they are very expensive. But until you get them and see. Stop asking the same questions 6 different ways.

I stated skeletal because it is easier. The press stated it.
I have now been dragged into describing the the exact condition. Remembering the pictures...
Find the truth for yourselves now.
I took time away.
The pics are out there. I WILL NEVER GET THEM!!
I HAVE SEEN ENOUGH!!!!!!!
 
My mothers testimony in the first trial addressed the "unnatural Spaying " of her legs. She was double jointed in her hips. B4 we moved she was a gymnast.

Never heard that b4 eh.

Before I get accused of anything.. She was a member of Langstaff Gymnastics in 81, 82 and 83.
The owner was George Zivic.
Check it out.
 
Good of you to answer Ken. Some of the things being asked of you here are fairly subjective requiring an opinion or conjecture leaving any answer open to personal interpretation. Like GPM sister's sighting, no way anyone could know for sure.

I have no idea why the intimate details of the description of Christine’s body are so important to some. Its not like it hasn’t been gone over and its not like that is the final linch pin standing in the way of solving the case or bringing about justice. I believe you have said enough about that and if some wish to seek out the source material, that’s their prerogative.

Which leads to my question; I have had zero success on finding the odd man out segment aired on the fifth estate. I believe dedpanman had asked you if you had a copy or could send it somehow but not sure how all that concluded? Is that still possible?

I believe everyone is just trying to get through the "minutia" as you call it in order to put it behind them and move along. For the most part that is happening, albeit slowly.

This seemed the best chance to get as far beyond rumour conjecture and personal opinion for as you say Ken-

From the Crown alone, there is 6 counts of what happened.
Enough.
Why?
Why not demand answers why?

I hope patience will prevail to get there.
 
On the contrary, the body is everything to a good detective. With 6 different scenarios, no one seems to know quite what happened or where. Not LE and not us.

IMO, that's a big deal.
 
Its all been said, questioned, and speculated upon in gruesome detail. We are stuck with whatever information we have now no matter how many times it gets asked or brought up. The possibilities remain the same. Upside to pursue any further compared down/ not worth it here and now.. imo
 
There are answers to some nearly 40 questions posted recently. Some of those answers may lead to more questions, some answer more than was asked. In a broad sense, the general parameters of what may have taken place that fateful day has been laid out. All the necessary details are left for us to incorporate into whatever scenario we wish to entertain. There are a few, which is most viable is debateable.

Some of the facts and details we have now are a bit different from what we all believed before. Some are difficult to accept on face value. Possibly because they had been accepted as truth before, possibly because of the official corruption and wrongdoing that is so prevalent but secreted in early reports but also so difficult to fathom or reconcile now.

Dedpanman once suggested a new timeline incorporating and reflecting the new detail. We now have a better understanding of the entire situation and the time constraints involved. Ken left us times and details suggesting the clock may have to be reset a bit before everyone can move along.

From the time Christine got off the bus around 3:45 pm to when she was seen at the store a block or so away around 4 pm she had changed her jacket, it later found hung too high for her to have done so herself. The store clerk noted her wearing a blue sweater presumably the same as that which Christine was eventually found with. A second bus driver apparently saw a blue car at the end of the Jessop&#8217;s driveway also around 4 pm. the same day. Christine&#8217;s bike was found laying on its side, unusually careless for Christine but not damaged. Christine had her recorder with her when found. Ken and his mother arrived home at around 4:10 pm. The makings of the timeline and abduction scenarios all began there. The potential time conflicts self evident.

Potential suspects have been put forth by various parties each holding promise in one way or another. However as Ken says, no real dna testing has been performed on the suspects being named and none seems forthcoming. My hopes for the &#8220;minutia of detail&#8221; was to generate a plausible timeline fitting in as much evidence and detail as possible to show justification for further testing. I have no preference commitments or obligation to any particular suspect. Why further testing or justice may not happen is another story, perhaps best addressed in sequence.

I believe we may be close here to being able to put that timeline together now and with the addition of some primary source material may be able to agree on the basics and move along. There is a lot of information available, more so than for most any other murder case. Lots of discussion has taken place, entire books and volumes written, yet answers and conclusions remain elusive.

I hope all the people involved here are still willing to work their way through the process with hopes truth will prevail.
 
Excellent post, nice conclusion Orora. A couple of (your) posts ago I though you were throwing in the towel (!).
 
For clarification orora - what we have now is some new information provided by a verified insider. The new information has not been confirmed as fact or true details - it's as much debatable as RR and the KR.

Your statement regarding this needs an imo attached, otherwise it may appear you are speaking for myself and anyone else that may disagree.

I do look forward to new timelines. Would like to see what the various thoughts are now.
 
Chorley-
A couple of (your) posts ago I though you were throwing in the towel (!).

Sorry I did not specify, just meant the current bone of contention that was upsetting to Ken need not be a priority to discuss right away again. That being descriptions of Christine's body.

Its all been said, questioned, and speculated upon in gruesome detail.

Likewise I did not specify what were facts from the new details revealed recently since the last timelines were attempted. The parts that Ken would have personal knowledge of such as when he and his mother returned home that day would have to be accepted as fact now. Some of the other answers are fact laden/ fact derived/ opinion but still open to some interpretation. We have the general parameters even though the lines are a little fuzzy yet. Some supporting documentation on some points may still be forth coming. We will have to work on that. Meanwhile we just have to do our best to work with what we have. Lots of pitfalls still lurking but a much better starting point to work from now... imo. Giving it all a bit of time to sink in.

Like- The one statement "if not that day it would have been another" had me and everyone else guessing for some time and I never once considered that the Jessops knew GPM was the prime suspect before the arrest and believed he had targetted Christine. Waiting for his opportunity in effect. The circumstance of that day fit the bill.

I too would like to see a new timeline based around some of the newer perceptions. You change one point and it changes everything in subtle ways.
 
I was attempting to sketch out a more detailed scenario/timeline back in post #117.

I'll re-post it here. Feel free to work from this (if anyone would like to) - or not. Chop, edit, add, delete... whatever.

KJessop never officially commented on this (post #117), but this more detailed scenario is based on a simpler version which he did basically agree with (the simpler version was posted early in this thread and back at the end of thread 1).

From post #117:


I have attempted to modify and embellish the abduction theory based on information from KJessop. In places, I have made some speculations based on logic and basic human behaviour patterns. I present this new version for KJessop’s consideration. Any errors are my own. I welcome input to modify this further.

KJESSOP’s THEORY OF THE ABDUCTION (as sketched out by Dedpanman):

On October 3rd, 1984, Christine Jessop got off her school bus on Leslie Street at approximately 3:45/3:50 pm. She was most likely excited about her new acquisition – a plastic recorder (a whistle-like musical instrument) given to her that day by her school teacher. Christine picked up the mail and newspaper that had been left at the end of the driveway and went into her house. Once inside, she dropped the mail and her schoolbag. No one was home, as her brother Kenny and her mother, Janet, were out running errands. Shortly thereafter, Christine got onto her bicycle and rode south on Leslie Street to the corner store to get some gum.

Christine did not go to the park or intend to meet Leslie Chipman at the park because the two of them were not on friendly terms. Leslie Chipman’s claims that she and Christine had agreed to meet at the park with their Cabbage Patch dolls was, at best, a fabrication or a creative embellishment on her part. The fact that Christine’s doll was later found in her room at home indicates that she never intended to meet Leslie in the park. The doll was in Christine’s room the whole time and never left the house on October 3rd.

After purchasing some gum at the store, Christine rode her bicycle back to the house, at which point she encountered JP in a blue Oldsmobile waiting at the end of the Jessop driveway. Christine knew JP from the Co-op. She had encountered him many times. He was a friend of her father’s and he had sold them feed for her pet chickens which she kept in the backyard. Christine felt at ease with him. There was a certain amount of trust. After all, he was her father’s friend.

JP knew Christine’s father was in jail and he could clearly see by the empty driveway that Janet was probably not home. He likely asked Christine an innocent-sounding question to confirm that she was alone.

The opportunity he had been fantasizing about for some time had just presented itself.

JP spoke to Christine and likely told her that he intended to go visit her father at the detention center right then - and would she like to come with him? Christine leapt at the chance, but instead of getting into his vehicle immediately, she hurried into the house to get something, and in her hurry, she did not secure her bicycle properly in the back shed.

JP waited in his car for Christine at the end of the driveway, or, perhaps he drove up to the house. As he waited for her, his mind raced about what to say if Janet should arrive home at that instant. Just then, another school bus rumbled by heading north on Leslie street. On board, JP’s own stepdaughters glanced out the window and saw a blue car on the Jessop’s property. The car was also spotted by the bus driver – Mrs. Gibson.

Christine fetched her recorder from within the house to show her father and then got into the Oldsmobile with JP and they drove off together. Christine’s bicycle fell over on its own after they left, or it fell over during Christine’s hurried rush - her mind focused on soon seeing her dad. In her excitement, she did not think to leave a note for her mother.

As JP’s car pulled out onto Leslie Street, he headed north towards Ravenshoe Road. His mind was racing. He had done it - he had her – but now what? Where to take her? As he drove past his own house – he thought about his stepdaughters who would be home now, having just gotten off the bus. JP could not take her there.

He knew of many secluded places to the east where he could take her and do things and not be interrupted. The most direct route there: Ravenshoe Road.

As JP guided his Oldsmobile north, Christine would have become anxious as she knew this was not the way to go visit her father. He was located in a correctional facility to the south in Toronto. She knew the way. Something was not right.

Christine would have asked JP why they were going this way. JP probably would have attempted to lie - to allay her fears and maintain control of the situation. Depending on how good of a liar he was, Christine either accepted the explanation for the time being, or began to sense that she had made a big mistake getting into this man’s car and that she was in danger. Recent memories from school - of being warned not to get into cars with strangers may have begun to flitter through her mind.

As her anxiety increased, Christine probably asked JP to take her home – that she had changed her mind about going to see her dad. JP did not grant her request and kept driving, and at that point she knew she was in a bad situation. Christine may have demanded for him to stop the car and let her out right then and there. Again, JP did not do as she asked.

As JP’s car approached the intersection of Leslie Street and Ravenshoe Road it began to slow down to make the turn east, and at this point Christine may have attempted to open the car door and get out. JP had to control the car and control her at the same time.

At this point, an elderly couple at the same intersection witnessed this attempt by a man in a blue car to subdue a child in the front seat (Fifth Estate episode “Odd Man Out”).

In JP’s mind, panic was beginning to take hold. This wasn’t turning out like he had thought. The enormity of this situation suddenly overwhelmed him. She could never be allowed to go home. She could not be allowed to live and tell what he had done. And, it was still a long way to Sunderland.

Did he pull over to subdue her? A physical assault of some kind likely occurred. He struck her in the face...? Not necessarily. Autopsy revealed two blows to the upper part of her head (not to be confused with the massive facial injury). Or perhaps all of those injuries occurred at this point? Or, did he show her his knife and warn her about any further escape attempts?

At this point, Christine would have been completely overwhelmed with pain and completely subdued. She may not have been conscious. She was at his mercy.

JP continued east on Ravenshoe Road.

Around the same time (4:10 pm) Kenney and Janet Jessop arrived home and found Christine’s bike in a fallen state and the house empty.

Anyone want to take this and run with it? Punch in approximate times, etc? Go for it!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
133
Guests online
1,723
Total visitors
1,856

Forum statistics

Threads
606,721
Messages
18,209,501
Members
233,943
Latest member
FindIreneFlemingWAState
Back
Top