CANADA Canada - Deborah Silverman, 21, Toronto, bound & shot,12 August 1978

[photographer4]

The panties in the hallway; If she would have taken her panties off because of having sex prior then at least she would have put it in a pocket or her purse. I just don't see a woman walking around with panties in her hand. Did LE checked the panties for body fluids from somebody other then hers as far as you know?

Great minds. I posted the same thing before seeing your comment.

 

[photographer4]

It does seem likely her panties were in her purse or a pocket and fell out during the struggle.

A pair of panties. Did she necessarily wear them this day? Could they have been from another day?

 

[Rush4087]

Did LE determine whether she was sexually assaulted? If so, any possible DNA?

Were there any prints on the purse besides hers and the neighbor who took the gold? I’m not sure I buy the neighbor’s story, but I’m sure LE must’ve checked him out (incl his apt).

All jmo

 

[photographer4]

Did LE determine whether she was sexually assaulted? If so, any possible DNA?

Were there any prints on the purse besides hers and the neighbor who took the gold? I’m not sure I buy the neighbor’s story, but I’m sure LE must’ve checked him out (incl his apt).

All jmo

It would be interesting to know whether prints besides her own were on the purse! Given this took place in the 70's I wonder if they've ever gone back and tried to check it for DNA or the panties for possible transfer evidence?

 

[photographer4]

Nov 17, 2003, page 7 - National Post at Newspapers.com - Newspapers.com

View the digital scanned newspaper from National Post dated Nov 17, 2003, page 7.

www.newspapers.com

(National Post, November 17, 2003 - Page 7).

According to the article at the (paid) link, Debbie was employed at Thorncrest Ford in Etobicoke (which I had not heard before). After work that day, she went on a double date with friends from work.

She lived at 4854 Bathurst Street, a small 6 storey apt building. Police had at that time, four bankers boxes of papers to go through according to the article (wow, that is not a lot really!).

She drove her own car, a maroon Chrysler Cordoba, and dropped her friends off then arrived in the parking lot of her building at around 4:30am.

She ENTERED the building via a side door with her key. According to this article she FOUGHT someone in the narrow, windowless hallway. Police found her purse, necklaces (plural) which had been torn from her neck as well as buttons from her shirt both on the hallway floor AND outside the door (I assume this means door to the outside from which she had entered the building). Emphasis on entered and fought added by me.

The article goes on to state that, "Police lament that in the Silverman case, investigators couldn't possibly have known to save some evidence from which a DNA sample, using today's technology could have been extracted" - I guess they didn't keep the panties or anything else they found at the scene, because the banker's boxes apparently only had paperwork in them.

Apparently, she did NOT have a boyfriend but she dated a lot of guys. The police noted to the author that they, "had a lot of indication of a great male interest from every walk of life that obviously she had to fend off."

Further, the author notes that police believe someone planned this murder (emphasis on planned added by me).

That is a whole lot more information than we had originally and gave me much to think about! Is it then possible someone WAITED for her inside the building? Someone maybe knew she was out with friends on a double date, and WAITED in that windowless hallway for her to turn up? That is kinda what it seems like happened to me. Someone knew she was coming home at some point, and waited there. She used her key to enter. She made it seemingly safely from the car to the interior of the building - if someone was behind her, they'd have had to enter WITH her, or use their own key.

So if someone was waiting INSIDE the hallway for her, then how'd they get in, and *when*??

 

[photographer4]

I'd *really* like to know which vehicles were parked anywhere near that side entrance that she used!! To me, this is someone she knew, who waited for her, OR, a resident of the building who waited there for her. I'd love to know what the residents said they saw / heard that day or in days leading up to or even post her going missing!!

Whoever snatched her took her a long way from home - I wonder if police looked at who maybe got a traffic ticket that day or the hours after the murder?

 

[photographer4]

Here is a sobering photo for you. Its in the public domain compliments of the Toronto Public Library archives.

 

[photographer4]

If you scour the internet with a search for Debbie Silverman, sooner or later, you might come across this link:

Clifford Olson | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

Murderpedia, the free online encyclopedic dictionary of murderers. The largest database about serial killers, mass murderers and spree killers around the world

murderpedia.org

The author of the website asserts that Clifford Olson wrote various politicians to advise them that he knew who murdered Debbie Silverman as he was there that night. Specifically, the website write up states:

"Olson informed various people on his knowledge of Silverman's murder. He notified then Premier William Davis of Ontario by letter, Robert Rae, MPP of the N.D.P. Party of Ontario by letter dated May 9th, 1983 and David Peterson M.P.P. Liberal Leader of Ontario by letter dated May 4th, 1983. ON August 9th, 1982 Olson swore an affidavit with photos taken at the murder farm grave along with photos of Silverman being buried. In the following years up to 1988 a number of police officers interviewed Olson in Kingston Penitentiary on the Silverman case. On January 9th, 1987 in a letter to the Honourable Ian Scott, Attorney General of Ontario, Olson requested immunity from prosecution for the murder of Silverman. Olson says he was present and can name the killer and give photos. On December 9th, 1987 two detectives interviewed Olson regarding the letter he sent to Ian Scott and informed him there would be no deal. Olson now refuses to talk to any of them."

It goes on to state that, "In 1988 Olson requested access to personal information under the Ontario Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act 1987. Olson accessed four seperate departmens obtaining all the information held on him. Access was also granted to alld epartments with regards to all information held on Deborah Silverman. Olson will not identify the killer of Deborah Silverman because there is no deal which will benefit him."

I have not yet been able to verify this information, however, I am wondering if we could do so via a Freedom of Info request? Or perhaps if we access archives Canada? Not sure, but something to look into.

For those who are unaware, Clifford Olson was a convicted serial killer who preyed on children. More info about him and his victims can be found at the above link or:

Serial killers: Clifford Olson awoke B.C. to the nightmare reality of modern bogeymen

Before his arrest in 1981, Clifford Olson had murdered 11 people. His convictions made him Canada’s first modern, recognized serial killer.

vancouversun.com

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/serial-killer-clifford-olson-dies-1.1110039

ETA: another member had already posted about Clifford Olson's letters to politicians stating he was there in an earlier post from 2018, but the original link they shared was not working any longer, so I thought I'd bring it forward with the link I shared at the top of the post. Original post is here: CANADA - Canada - Toronto Crimes Discussion

 

[photographer4]

An article found at the Toronto Star dated September 17, 1978 (page A1 & A6) notes that Debbie:
"loved expensive clothes, collected exotic perfumes. Adored being wined and dined and treated like a lady. Everyday she polished her nails & listened to her thousand dollar stereo."

She had gone a bit into debt to buy her car. And the article notes as well that she liked, "Disco dancing, dating without getting involved, and swimming at Wasaga Beach." Interestingly, the article goes on to say that, "underneath Debbie, the hedonist was a sad-angry lady"

I wonder why they referred to her that way? They go on to describe her as responsible (never missing a payment on her loan or bills, setting two alarms to ensure she got to work on time). Her friends described her as "fearless" and "too trusting" in the article.

Before working at the car dealership, she worked at Ontario Palce, and Fran's restaurant as well as Papaya Hut on Yonge Street. The manager of the Papaya Hut said she was a "terrific worker who would pop in give me a kiss and away she'd go.".

This article states she went for lunch on the day she vanished with three friends, all employees where she worked. Two men, one woman. These are the same friends that she went out dancing with later that night. The two men were both suspects in the murder per the article.

Debbie's date that night is noted to have been a red-headed car mechanic.

Apparently they originally tried a venue called "The Ports" on Yonge Street but it was lined up quite a long ways so they gave up. Then they tried "Fridays" on Eglinton but eventually ended up at the "Camelot Steak House & Tavern" - the disco at the back was apparently Debbie's favorite. They remained there until it closed, and then her date drove Debbie's car to Mississauga. "They dropped off Pam, the other girl and then the two men and Debbie went to Pam's date's house on Arbor Road. His parents were not home". Debbie and one of the men talked from 2:30-4:30am.

The article notes she locked her car and walked about 80 paces to the building side door where she let herself in. Tenants in the building were still having a party when they heard screams, but police think the screams were from guests hollering. The article indicates she was likely grabbed from behind after "probably returning her key to her purse".

Pieces of her gold chain were found OUTSIDE the building on the pavement. Her purse with her cards, makeup and keys were found lying on the carpet on the INSIDE of the building along with her panties. According to the article, within an hour of her attack, a tenant found her belongings on the floor and instead of reporting it, he look through it, stole the gold jewlery and then left the purse etc with the underwear "neatly folded inside it" outside the Silverman's apt door. But police didn't find out about him until 9pm - several hours after Debbie had vanished.

Debbie's sister Karen found the purse at 11am.
*****
Article summarized by me as best as I could. I wonder if someone was hiding just by the door waiting to grab her? It really seems to have been someone she knew or had at least encountered previously. Regarding the panties - is it possible that the KILLER brought a pair of her panties BACK to the scene and left them there? I can't imagine why he would have but, maybe to scare the family to let them know his intentions? He clearly wasn't interested in the contents of the purse or anything aside his victim.

 

[photographer4]

All the articles I’ve read suggest she was taken from Toronto and killed in the area where she was found. Most articles say she was shot but one says she was strangled (Toronto Star, July 19, 1979. Page A14). Her partially decomposed remains were found by a teenager in the brush.

That she was strangled would make more sense to me actually. A gun shot would have surely rung out quite loudly, no?

 

[photographer4]

Yes, that is from my page.

As for the guns, handguns were restricted back then as well. Rifles not as much. It's quite possible she was shot with a rifle or even a shotgun. The police never said the calbire. But it's also quite easy to get a gun on the streets these days and back then was no different.

@Snively your page is excellent!

 

[Rush4087]

An article found at the Toronto Star dated September 17, 1978 (page A1 & A6) notes that Debbie:
"loved expensive clothes, collected exotic perfumes. Adored being wined and dined and treated like a lady. Everyday she polished her nails & listened to her thousand dollar stereo."

She had gone a bit into debt to buy her car. And the article notes as well that she liked, "Disco dancing, dating without getting involved, and swimming at Wasaga Beach." Interestingly, the article goes on to say that, "underneath Debbie, the hedonist was a sad-angry lady"

I wonder why they referred to her that way? They go on to describe her as responsible (never missing a payment on her loan or bills, setting two alarms to ensure she got to work on time). Her friends described her as "fearless" and "too trusting" in the article.

Before working at the car dealership, she worked at Ontario Palce, and Fran's restaurant as well as Papaya Hut on Yonge Street. The manager of the Papaya Hut said she was a "terrific worker who would pop in give me a kiss and away she'd go.".

This article states she went for lunch on the day she vanished with three friends, all employees where she worked. Two men, one woman. These are the same friends that she went out dancing with later that night. The two men were both suspects in the murder per the article.

Debbie's date that night is noted to have been a red-headed car mechanic.

Apparently they originally tried a venue called "The Ports" on Yonge Street but it was lined up quite a long ways so they gave up. Then they tried "Fridays" on Eglinton but eventually ended up at the "Camelot Steak House & Tavern" - the disco at the back was apparently Debbie's favorite. They remained there until it closed, and then her date drove Debbie's car to Mississauga. "They dropped off Pam, the other girl and then the two men and Debbie went to Pam's date's house on Arbor Road. His parents were not home". Debbie and one of the men talked from 2:30-4:30am.

The article notes she locked her car and walked about 80 paces to the building side door where she let herself in. Tenants in the building were still having a party when they heard screams, but police think the screams were from guests hollering. The article indicates she was likely grabbed from behind after "probably returning her key to her purse".

Pieces of her gold chain were found OUTSIDE the building on the pavement. Her purse with her cards, makeup and keys were found lying on the carpet on the INSIDE of the building along with her panties. According to the article, within an hour of her attack, a tenant found her belongings on the floor and instead of reporting it, he look through it, stole the gold jewlery and then left the purse etc with the underwear "neatly folded inside it" outside the Silverman's apt door. But police didn't find out about him until 9pm - several hours after Debbie had vanished.

Debbie's sister Karen found the purse at 11am.
*****
Article summarized by me as best as I could. I wonder if someone was hiding just by the door waiting to grab her? It really seems to have been someone she knew or had at least encountered previously. Regarding the panties - is it possible that the KILLER brought a pair of her panties BACK to the scene and left them there? I can't imagine why he would have but, maybe to scare the family to let them know his intentions? He clearly wasn't interested in the contents of the purse or anything aside his victim.

“Debbie and one of the men talked from 2:30-4:30am”

I think I also read that one man went into the basement to shoot pool.

Does anybody know which man she was talking to, her date, or Pam’s date?

 

[photographer4]

“Debbie and one of the men talked from 2:30-4:30am”

I think I also read that one man went into the basement to shoot pool.

Does anybody know which man she was talking to, her date, or Pam’s date?

Yes. She spoke with one man while the other played pool. And apparently per the article she was very tired and someone suggested she spend the night, but she insisted on going home. I do not know which man she was speaking with, or who suggested she stay the night.

 

[photographer4]

Nov 17, 2003, page 7 - National Post at Newspapers.com - Newspapers.com

View the digital scanned newspaper from National Post dated Nov 17, 2003, page 7.

www.newspapers.com

(National Post, November 17, 2003 - Page 7).

According to the article at the (paid) link, Debbie was employed at Thorncrest Ford in Etobicoke (which I had not heard before). After work that day, she went on a double date with friends from work.

She lived at 4854 Bathurst Street, a small 6 storey apt building. Police had at that time, four bankers boxes of papers to go through according to the article (wow, that is not a lot really!).

She drove her own car, a maroon Chrysler Cordoba, and dropped her friends off then arrived in the parking lot of her building at around 4:30am.

She ENTERED the building via a side door with her key. According to this article she FOUGHT someone in the narrow, windowless hallway. Police found her purse, necklaces (plural) which had been torn from her neck as well as buttons from her shirt both on the hallway floor AND outside the door (I assume this means door to the outside from which she had entered the building). Emphasis on entered and fought added by me.

The article goes on to state that, "Police lament that in the Silverman case, investigators couldn't possibly have known to save some evidence from which a DNA sample, using today's technology could have been extracted" - I guess they didn't keep the panties or anything else they found at the scene, because the banker's boxes apparently only had paperwork in them.

Apparently, she did NOT have a boyfriend but she dated a lot of guys. The police noted to the author that they, "had a lot of indication of a great male interest from every walk of life that obviously she had to fend off."

Further, the author notes that police believe someone planned this murder (emphasis on planned added by me).

That is a whole lot more information than we had originally and gave me much to think about! Is it then possible someone WAITED for her inside the building? Someone maybe knew she was out with friends on a double date, and WAITED in that windowless hallway for her to turn up? That is kinda what it seems like happened to me. Someone knew she was coming home at some point, and waited there. She used her key to enter. She made it seemingly safely from the car to the interior of the building - if someone was behind her, they'd have had to enter WITH her, or use their own key.

So if someone was waiting INSIDE the hallway for her, then how'd they get in, and *when*??

She drove her friends to the disco and dropped Pam off then went to one of the guy’s homes per all these articles I’ve just reviewed and shared. We even learn that her date drove her car to one location that night. We are told she spent a few hours at the home of one of the men - whose parents were not at home. We are told she was so tired, one of them (had to be a man because they had already dropped Pam off per the articles) suggested she stay the night but she didn’t.

Ok. If she drove everyone to the disco, and dropped Pam off and went to the home of the one man, where she spent hours talking with at least one while the other shot pool in another room, what happened to the second guy??

Did he spend the night at his buddy’s parent’s house? If not, how and when did he eventually get to his own house?? Anyone alibi him? Were police able to confirm his story?? I assume not because both men were considered suspects and even followed by police per some of the above articles.

Did one or both men drive her home? Are we 100% sure she went home that night after the dancing? How are police certain she ever made it to the apt? Is it inconceivable that someone else drove and parked her car where it was found and left her things where they were found as if to make police think she had been taken via some fight in the hallway? How have police confirmed she ever got back to the apt that night??

 

[photographer4]

I should mention here that the article in the Toronto Star dated July 19, 1979 (page A14) talks about how a lawyer representing the accused in another murder case (Judy Jordan, killed in a hit and run) asserted his belief to the courts that Judy and Debbie Silverman were known to one another due to illicit drug use and he stated he felt their deaths were connected as a result.

Police stated they knew of no such link though.

I’ve not followed up at all to learn more about the accused or victim in that. After and have found nothing further to date that would suggest that the two women knew each other (though they did live close to each other) or that Debbie was involved in illegal drug use.

 

[Rush4087]

She drove her friends to the disco and dropped Pam off then went to one of the guy’s homes per all these articles I’ve just reviewed and shared. We even learn that her date drove her car to one location that night. We are told she spent a few hours at the home of one of the men - whose parents were not at home. We are told she was so tired, one of them (had to be a man because they had already dropped Pam off per the articles) suggested she stay the night but she didn’t.

Ok. If she drove everyone to the disco, and dropped Pam off and went to the home of the one man, where she spent hours talking with at least one while the other shot pool in another room, what happened to the second guy??

Did he spend the night at his buddy’s parent’s house? If not, how and when did he eventually get to his own house?? Anyone alibi him? Were police able to confirm his story?? I assume not because both men were considered suspects and even followed by police per some of the above articles.

Did one or both men drive her home? Are we 100% sure she went home that night after the dancing? How are police certain she ever made it to the apt? Is it inconceivable that someone else drove and parked her car where it was found and left her things where they were found as if to make police think she had been taken via some fight in the hallway? How have police confirmed she ever got back to the apt that night??

Obviously all speculation on my part, but if it is thought that her panties were in her purse, could that be because DS and the man she was talking to upstairs from 2:30-4:30am were doing more than just talking? If so, and if the man she was “talking to”was not her date (the red headed mechanic).. and if her date was in the basement and knew and/or could hear what was going on upstairs, you might have had a very jealous, humiliated, and rage-filled mechanic on your hands. Maybe that’s one reason why LE considered both men suspects at one time.

Since LE did at one time consider one or both men suspects, they (LE) obviously would have had to have speculated on how the suspect(s) could have travelled (closely following - or just proceeding ahead of - DS) from Pam’s date’s parent’s house to DS’s apartment. I wonder if there was a car at Pam’s date’s parent’s house besides DS’s?

All speculation, just thinking out loud

 

[photographer4]

Obviously all speculation on my part, but if it is thought that her panties were in her purse, could that be because DS and the man she was talking to upstairs from 2:30-4:30am were doing more than just talking? If so, and if the man she was “talking to”was not her date (the red headed mechanic).. and if her date was in the basement and knew and/or could hear what was going on upstairs, you might have had a very jealous, humiliated, and rage-filled mechanic on your hands. Maybe that’s one reason why LE considered both men suspects at one time.

Since LE did at one time consider one or both men suspects, they (LE) obviously would have had to have speculated on how the suspect(s) could have travelled (closely following - or just proceeding ahead of - DS) from Pam’s date’s parent’s house to DS’s apartment. I wonder if there was a car at Pam’s date’s parent’s house besides DS’s?

All speculation, just thinking out loud

Ok well, the group of friends met over lunch and then opted to go to the disco that night right? Debbie drove everyone to the disco (or her date did, but the point here is they all went in her car). They dropped Pam home. They went to the one man’s house. Debbie supposedly drove herself home, in what we are told was a very tired state. Tired enough that one man asked her to spend the night but she declined right? So how did this man who was left get back to his place and when did he arrive??

2. If they all went in Debbie’s car to the venue and she drove people home - how were they meeting Debbie in the first place? Did they leave their cars at work and go with her directly from work or did she / they go home and get ready first then meet later?

3. Why do we care? Did someone leave their car at Debbie’s building to collect later on? Did she meet them along the route somewhere to pick them up? Did she have them meet her at her place? How did the other three usually get to and from work / social events and how did Debbie end up driving everyone? What the hell happened to the second man who was not at his own residence when Debbie left??

4. How is she making it home safely at all if she is so tired? Do we have a single verifiable bit of evidence that confirms she ever arrived home that night?? Her belongings are found at the scene yes. But someone could have left them there to stage a scene?

5. Was she found wearing whatever she left the apt with to go dancing? She was found wearing a bra, hands tied with her white top sleeves. Halter top around her neck. No panties found at the scene. What about her pants? Skirt? Shoes? What was she wearing when she left??

6. The panties in the purse: if they were found as the buttons were, on the floor in the hallway, the tenant who took the purse and stole from it before placing it outside Debbie’s apt door could have possibly found them and tucked them into the handbag before returning it. Why didn’t this person contact police? If there was a sign that Debbie engaged in a struggle inside the hallway, which is what the articles suggest, then why didn’t this tenant notice / report the concerns until police spoke with him some 15 hours later?

7. There was a party going on inside the building still when she arrived. Could any of those guests have encountered her on her way in and just grabbed her? Maybe this was meant to be a rape, not a murder but it went wrong so he left with her?

8. What other areas if any near the building property were searched by police for possible clues?

9. Do we believe she was killed where she was found or merely dumped there at some point? She was in a shallow grave and found by a teenager. Why this location? Did the perp know the area and just pick a random quiet spot to dump her? Or did he take her there and kill her? I think he killed her and dumped her. It’s a shallow grave. A rush job perhaps. He wouldn’t want to have lingered at the scene. It was going to have to have been daylight by the time they would have arrived in the disposal site if we assume they went directly there (which I doubt they did).

10. She was found 3 months later. I doubt this perp took her straight to where she’s found. I think he took her somewhere else. Kept her some time and then went under the cover of night to dump her. There’s no way he’s doing this during daylight hours! Right??

 

[photographer4]

Google tells us the sun rose on August 12, 1978 at 6:12am. It’s roughly an hour drive from her building to where she was eventually found. If she was up at the man’s house talking until about 4:30am. So if she went home, and was there by 5-5:30am, she’s not even arriving in the final spot until sometime around 6am. And that’s if he went directly there and killed and dumped her there.

Would love to ask police about the scene of the body. Any sign of a struggle there? Any sign that the killer lingered there? Do they think she was killed where she was found?

If she made it home at all (which I’m not confident she did) then I think she would be possibly freaking out and trying to scream. How did he get her into the car to take her away? She’s found tied with her clothes. Ok. So he wasn’t prepared enough to being rope with him I guess. How’s she subdued in the car, especially for such a long drive??

I’m calling bull crap here. I think it’s possible she was dead before she got to the final location. I also wonder if she was drugged and that made her compliant or knocked her out enough that it was a peaceful drive to the next location? She was notably tired at the man’s house. Just saying that would have been an easy way to get her. I feel maybe the scene at the apt was staged and perhaps she never made it back there post disco.

 

[photographer4]

Body location questions:
She was found partially decomposed. What was the estimate on time / date of death? What’s the death certificate say was the official cause of death? Was she actually shot or strangled?

What did the area generally look like? Did it look like the killer made an effort to conceal her body? Were any clothes found aside the strangle top, halter and bra?

I realize I’m unlikely to get answers anytime soon from any official source but it seems it could be solved if a cold case team picked it up and had access to whatever police have.

Did cops interview all the employees at the dealership? Anyone not invited out that night who was disappointed?

I think she knew her killer or met him close to the time she was killed.

 

[photographer4]

Her keys were found IN her purse. Why? She needed them to enter the building and she would need them again to get into her unit. I don’t think she put them back in her purse. If she struggled there with someone I could believe she dropped them but I don’t believe she would have put them back in her purse. I wonder if the tenant who found her purse also found her keys and put them in there?