CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough, Ont, 19 June 1990 #2

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That’s certainly a lot of circumstantial evidence! I wonder if LE has more, maybe knows he did it, but doesn’t pursue it until the day he’s granted parole. Lord forbid someone is crazy enough to let him out, then they can charge him for this crime and lock him up again. If he did it, I wonder if he told KH? Would she ever disclose the information to keep him locked up or is she staying quiet not to implicate herself? The Bain family needs closure. They deserve to know what happened to their daughter. They at least need her body back so they can lay her to rest properly.
 
Fwiw, I don't think the crime of killing EB was premeditated. Imo, it was accidental, but done during a heated moment of anger and frustration.

What to do with her body and car was premeditated though.

All jmo.
 
I'm wondering if anyone has entertained the idea that Liz was pregnant at the time of her disappearance, which is what could have been a possible motive for her murder? RB brought this idea up in the bonus episode of the Murder Was The Case podcast.
 
Thank you so much for sharing these, eyesonly! I've been waiting on Rob to publish these for quite some time. Hopefully the photos of Liz's Tercel will be uploaded soon as well :)
 
It seems as though this thread has died down a little and I'd love to pick it back up. <modsnip - not victim friendly>
 
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I brought part of the TOS over here for new members who may not be aware of them. Because this is a cold case with no new information coming in there’s a risk of the thread being shut down if we stray way from the rules.


“VICTIM FRIENDLY

Websleuths is a victim friendly forum. Attacking or bashing a victim is not allowed. Discussing known victim behavior, good or bad is fine, but do so in a civil and constructive way, and only when such behavior is known to be relevant to the case.

The "victim friendly" rule extends to family members of victims and suspects. Sleuthing family members, friends, or others who have not been officially designated by law enforcement or in mainstream media as a Person of Interest or suspect is not allowed (i.e. Sleuthing out this type of information, and publicly posting their personal information, including names, addresses, and background data -- even if it is public is not allowed and such posts will be removed, along with any posts that encourage such sleuthing).

This does not mean, however, that statements made by family members and other third parties cannot come into discussion as the facts of the case are reported in the media. Members may reasonably discuss what is said in MSM by them or about them, but do not make random accusations, insinuations, suggest their involvement, bash and attack them, or speculate negatively about them.”

Rules - Etiquette & Information

The only other person other than RB that was named publicly in MSM as a possible suspect was Bernardo, as far as I know.
 
eyesonly said:
Well, according to the transcripts, that are public domain, the defense clearly puts out M.B as an alternative suspect, much so over the Scarborough rapist.
Crown prosecutor McMahon even had to ask M.B outright "did you kill your sister".
McMahon did not ask this question of E.B's youngest brother, nor her sister, nor either of her parents, nor anyone else who testified.

Doesn't this public fact leave open a discussion for M.B as a possible suspect to E.B's disappearance?
I say it absolutely does as long as we keep it civil and respectful with the ultimate goal of finding out what happened to E.B.

Maybe we could use a moderator's opinion on this because family members do hurt and kill each other and if we are banned from discussing the possibility of this occurring in E.B's disappearance, then what's the use.

From Lexi's post above:
"""Sleuthing out this type of information, and publicly posting their personal information, including names, addresses, and background data...."""

I think we can discuss M.B without doing the above things. We have been pretty good by using only initials of the intimate persons involved.
Click to expand...

Maybe hit the alert on your post and ask a moderator for guidance(?)

If we’re permitted it becomes an open field for everyone close to EB and RB to be discussed as a possible suspect, in my view.

The crown asked MB if he killed his sister after the defence asked him questions that made it sound as if he was somehow involved.

I mentioned Kevin Donovan’s work before in getting previously sealed court documents released. He recently ran a five-part series after reviewing police documents and after the story ran, an arrest was made.

I think that’s what this case needs: a journalist to ask the courts for access. Access to the trial transcripts is a huge advantage in understanding this case. But I think the answer might be sitting in evidence boxes right now.

RB and his recent lawyers had access to everything, as far as I understand. Why couldn’t they make a solid case against MB when they had everything in front of them? I’m not accusing, just asking.

I listened to the podcast and towards the end, Dr. Mellor said he hadn’t read the court transcripts, iirc. I don’t know what happened after the podcast aired. Was there any movement in the case?
 
Lexi wrote: """RB and his recent lawyers had access to everything, as far as I understand. Why couldn’t they make a solid case against MB when they had everything in front of them? I’m not accusing, just asking."""

The sole mandate of the lawsuit, I believe, was for the violation of RB's rights by law enforcement.
It wasn't a lawsuit for innocence and finding another suspect.
His lawyers achieved their goal and are completely done with the case.

Lexi wrote: """Was there any movement in the case?"""

If you mean by law enforcement. No, there has been no movement or interest in any movement since RB's conviction.
They have never acknowledged his innocence and likely never will unless forced with irrefutable evidence to the contrary.
Going to see Bernardo was just a publicity ploy to appease.

They know RB isn't responsible, but will never admit. Because they don't have to and that's not what the system is truely about.
They made a legal arrest, and tried him in a legal proceeding.
Innocent or guilt has never had any bearing on how the justice system was set up.
 
<modsnip>

The only true loser is a beautiful young woman who was taken from the world in her prime.

<modsnip> there is most likely a treasure trove of information in those file boxes but there's no way any of us civilians are going to gain access to them.
And I don't see any journalist taking the risk as it would probably cost them their career.
Freedom of speech is another sham sold to us along with a fair and impartial justice system.
 
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eyesonly said:
modsnip>

The only true loser is a beautiful young woman who was taken from the world in her prime.

<modsnip> there is most likely a treasure trove of information in those file boxes but there's no way any of us civilians are going to gain access to them.
And I don't see any journalist taking the risk as it would probably cost them their career.
Freedom of speech is another sham sold to us along with a fair and impartial justice system.
Click to expand...
eyesonly said:
Lexi wrote: """RB and his recent lawyers had access to everything, as far as I understand. Why couldn’t they make a solid case against MB when they had everything in front of them? I’m not accusing, just asking."""

The sole mandate of the lawsuit, I believe, was for the violation of RB's rights by law enforcement.
It wasn't a lawsuit for innocence and finding another suspect.
His lawyers achieved their goal and are completely done with the case.

Lexi wrote: """Was there any movement in the case?"""

If you mean by law enforcement. No, there has been no movement or interest in any movement since RB's conviction.
They have never acknowledged his innocence and likely never will unless forced with irrefutable evidence to the contrary.
Going to see Bernardo was just a publicity ploy to appease.

They know RB isn't responsible, but will never admit. Because they don't have to and that's not what the system is truely about.
They made a legal arrest, and tried him in a legal proceeding.
Innocent or guilt has never had any bearing on how the justice system was set up.
Click to expand...

RB’s lawyers had full access, it seems, as they were able to find the ‘missing’ journal pages. I know they were given access because of the civil lawsuit.

They had enough power to have items in evidence tested for DNA in order to compare it to Bernardo’s. With that full access, how did they not find anything that might incriminate MB, was my question. It’s probably a rhetorical one.

EB’s remains still haven’t been found, I’m hoping one day maybe someone might speak up or maybe the case will have a cold-case officer look at it again.

People still remember her and hope to find her. Her family, friends, and loved ones care, IMO.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
""""They had enough power to have items in evidence tested for DNA in order to compare it to Bernardo’s. With that full access, how did they not find anything that might incriminate MB, was my question. It’s probably a rhetorical one.""""

There was no evidence with dna to test against Bernardo. Only fingerprints. Anything stated otherwise in any article is complete bs.

Again, the lawyers had a specific mandate and that was their only purpose and goal that they didn't move from.
And what would they find in the files anyway. The police never questioned the family whatsoever. They never took proper statements as to everyone's movements that night. They never followed up and checked anyone's said whereabouts.
They never even talked to MB's professor if he actually attended class that night.
I've personally been in contact with the Prof and he says that he was never questioned by anyone.
The police never even took immediate statements from the two people who claim to have found the car.
Police 101, you take the two people and separate them immediately and get full statements as to how they were able to happen upon the car when the whole of southern Ontario's law enforcement couldn't locate it.
It's a huge deal when a family member, or bf, or someone very close to the victim finds the missing vehicle.
But the police did nothing. And that's because they already had eyes on the car on the Thurs night. The night they had RB in the station until 1am. Then they watched to see if they worried him enough that he would go to the car and they could nail him there.
But he didn't.
 
Mod Reminder:

WS is a victim friendly forum. Unless law enforcement specifically names someone as a suspect or person of interest in a crime they may not be sleuthed.
Additionally, please use links in your posts to the approved source when making a statement as fact.

Thanks
 
eyesonly said:
""""They had enough power to have items in evidence tested for DNA in order to compare it to Bernardo’s. With that full access, how did they not find anything that might incriminate MB, was my question. It’s probably a rhetorical one.""""

There was no evidence with dna to test against Bernardo. Only fingerprints. Anything stated otherwise in any article is complete bs.

Again, the lawyers had a specific mandate and that was their only purpose and goal that they didn't move from.
And what would they find in the files anyway. The police never questioned the family whatsoever. They never took proper statements as to everyone's movements that night. They never followed up and checked anyone's said whereabouts.
They never even talked to MB's professor if he actually attended class that night.
I've personally been in contact with the Prof and he says that he was never questioned by anyone.
The police never even took immediate statements from the two people who claim to have found the car.
Police 101, you take the two people and separate them immediately and get full statements as to how they were able to happen upon the car when the whole of southern Ontario's law enforcement couldn't locate it.
It's a huge deal when a family member, or bf, or someone very close to the victim finds the missing vehicle.
But the police did nothing. And that's because they already had eyes on the car on the Thurs night. The night they had RB in the station until 1am. Then they watched to see if they worried him enough that he would go to the car and they could nail him there.
But he didn't.
Click to expand...

In 2006, items in evidence were tested and the DNA on those items were compared to Bernardo’s. There was no match.

No trace of Paul Bernardo's DNA was ever found in Elizabeth Bain's car....
...Not from a list of exhibits submitted to the Centre of Forensic Sciences that included: a package of du Maurier cigarettes (Bernardo's preferred brand but also the brand smoked, on the rare occasions she did smoke, by Bain), three matchbooks, three cigarettes (one with the filter tip removed), two blankets from the trunk, a car door panel, blue carpet from the interior of the car, a "Sprite'' pop can, a pen, a Kleenex, two live matches and fibres from the rear of the Toyota.

These were the exhibits analyzed in a second round of testing at the behest of Baltovich's defence team, in 2006, the results provided in February of this year....

...The fact remains, there is nothing connecting Bernardo to that car. Baltovich's DNA profile matches semen and saliva stains recovered from blankets found in the trunk. This is essentially irrelevant since Baltovich told police he and Bain had made love on those blankets two nights before she disappeared....

..Robert Baltovich was frequently in Elizabeth's car because he was her boyfriend," says defence counsel James Lockyer. "There was no DNA attributable to (Baltovich) found in the interior of the car, where Elizabeth's body had been. That helps put in perspective the lack of significance of failing to find any of Bernardo's DNA in the car."...
Click to expand...
No proof in Bain's car to pin killing on Bernardo | The Star

Her car wasn’t found on Thursday, it was found on Friday. The police didn’t find the car, it was found by EB’s brother (and MB’s then-girlfriend NS).
At 2:30 p.m. on Friday June 22, following more than two days of desperate appeals and searches, her Toyota was found by her brother Paul across from Three R Auto on Morrish Rd
Click to expand...
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/toronto...wcm/37976b3a-57c2-4042-885c-19b5df0d01ba/amp/
 
New article today in the Star. It includes an interview with RB, and quotes from EB’s diary. (Paywalled)

Robert Baltovich isn’t rattled by the thought that some people still think he murdered his former girlfriend Elizabeth Bain and hid her body back in the summer of 1990.

“I’m not the type of person that really dwells on what other people think of me,”…

…“I know the truth. My family knows the truth. My friends know the truth.”…

…He says he has reinvestigated the case with a private investigator and believes he knows the identity of Bain’s real killer.

He declined to give the name of the person he believes to be the real killer on the record.

“I do not believe that Paul Bernardo was the killer ... I believe the killer was someone who was quite close to Liz.”

“We actually believe it could be solved.”
Click to expand...
He went to prison for life. But U of T student Elizabeth Bain’s murder hadn’t been solved

ETA: I missed this in May. 680 News did a podcast on the case: Tracking a Killer: The Cold Case Files - 680 NEWS

It’s a great listen. The TPS cold case officer interviewed comfirms the case is still active. The police acted on relatively recent tips about the location of EB’s remains. They fully investigated, but found nothing.

In the ‘Murder Was The Case’ podcast that RB participated in, the host Dr. Mellor and RB said they knew where the remains were. (I’d have to search to get the exact quote if needed, it’s within this thread.) I’m guessing that was the location, or locations, that the TPS searched.

The officer said a change in science or a change in relationships may help solve the case.
 
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Nov 15 2021
CityNews
''This week on Tracking a Killer: The Cold Case Files, CityNews reporters Fil Martino and Madison Fitzpatrick take a look at the unsolved disappearance and murder of 22-year-old Elizabeth Bain.

Bain was a student at the University of Toronto’s Scarborough Campus when she vanished on June 19, 1990.

Toronto Police Detective Steve Smith says her vehicle was found 3 days later with blood inside.

“Police immediately began a large-scale investigation. Officers were confident enough to declare this missing person as a homicide. Elizabeth’s body has never been found, ” said Detective Smith.

Police thought they had her killer several months into the investigation. Elizabeth Bain’s boyfriend Robert Baltovich was convicted of her murder.

“They didn’t really leave much doubt in my mind that they were absolutely convinced that I had either killed Liz or that I knew what happened to her,” said Baltovich.

Baltovich spent eight years behind bars before being deemed not guilty by the courts in 2008. He says they had the wrong guy.

Elizabeth Bain’s killer remains at large, but police say someone knows something and one day, they are confident this decades old case will be solved.''
 
I know that it was suspected that EBs body may have been dumped somewhere in Port Perry & there was a witness who also said that he had seen EB in a vehicle fighting with someone on the East bound lanes of the 401 headed towards Oshawa. Would it be possible that maybe her remains were dumped somewhere in the Oshawa area? I happened upon the below article - as this is right around the corner from my home. At the time when EB went missing this would have been sprawling farm land (famous horse farm) - and a body has been uncovered that they believe is linked to a historical case - just wondering if anyone thinks MAYBE it could be a possibility? Even if remote.

Article here:
Human remains found in north Oshawa part of historical case investigation

Either way I am happy it would seem that a family will get some long awaited closure with this discovery.
 
GlasgowSmile said:
I know that it was suspected that EBs body may have been dumped somewhere in Port Perry & there was a witness who also said that he had seen EB in a vehicle fighting with someone on the East bound lanes of the 401 headed towards Oshawa. Would it be possible that maybe her remains were dumped somewhere in the Oshawa area? I happened upon the below article - as this is right around the corner from my home. At the time when EB went missing this would have been sprawling farm land (famous horse farm) - and a body has been uncovered that they believe is linked to a historical case - just wondering if anyone thinks MAYBE it could be a possibility? Even if remote.

Article here:
Human remains found in north Oshawa part of historical case investigation

Either way I am happy it would seem that a family will get some long awaited closure with this discovery.
Click to expand...


That’s very interesting. The police were tipped off and the remains were buried.

I did a search for the definition of ‘historical remains’ (bbm):

“
    1. remains.

  2. Investigator
    1. When investigating found bones, request the assistance of a forensic anthropologist by contacting [designated RCMP officers in North Battleford or Regina].

    2. Do not handle, mark or move any bones, surrounding soil or foreign objects at the site.

    3. If there are indications that bones are recent and death may not have been natural, proceed with a criminal investigation.

    4. If bones are historical, the anthropologists will take possession of bones and artifacts and comply with all Provincial Acts which require the recording of the site and proper handling of the remains.
H. 1. b 2. 5. Historic sites are protected by the Provincial Heritage Property Act. If a site is suspected to be historic, request the assistance of a provincial archeologist by contacting:

  • Heritage Branch Archaeological Resource Management.
Example: The New Brunswick Government's Protocol for Accidental Discovery of Human Remains.
This protocol divides discoveries of human remains into three categories:

  • archaeological remains,

  • 20th century cemeteries and family plots ("these include human remains buried in neglected and overgrown early twentieth century cemeteries and family plots") and

  • "legal evidence" ("all other human remains that are discovered should be treated as potential legal evidence associated with a criminal act and treated as such.")
The protocol then stipulates that "the RCMP would be the lead agency. The RCMP would decide what course of action to initiate." In due course, the other parties involved could be the Coroner's Office, Archaeological Services, or the Chief Medical Officer's Office, but that would be up to the RCMP to decide.

The sequence of events specified in the protocol, in the event of discovery of human remains, is the following….”

Human Remains

Maybe it’s an old family grave that was once on private property?

But they used the term ‘historical case’. Not a historical grave that was unmarked. A case.
 
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