GUILTY Canada - Jasmine Lovett, mid 20s, and daughter, 2, Calgary, 16 April 2019 *Arrest*

[otto]

Bowden is medium security. He will not go there first....maybe Edmonton max or Drumheller. But, definitely not Bowden. And eligibility for parole is after 25 years. I have never heard of 50 years. Second degree murder under the new legislation is 10 to 25 before being eligible for parole....doesn’t mean they will get it though. A judge does not have to make multi murder sentences consecutive anymore either.

If convicted of first degree for Aliyah and second degree for Jasmine, consecutive sentencing would result in 35 years before parole eligibility.

 

[Gina20]

What is the difference in penalty between 1st and 2nd degree murder in Canada?

Also be aware of the "not criminally responsible" plea. Very often along the way in murder cases, a judge will order a psychiatric assessment of the person charged, usually 30 days, to determine if a person is fit to stand trial. This is sometimes renewed for a further 30 days. Sometimes people are not fit to stand trial at all.

If fit to stand trial, they can plead NCR.
If found NCR, this changes everything about sentencing. The regular time periods do not apply. A person can have a history of mental illness and be found guilty. Their state of mind at the time of the murder is what matters. This has to be proven in court.

 

[Snoop Sister]

If convicted of first degree for Aliyah and second degree for Jasmine, consecutive sentencing would result in 35 years before parole eligibility.

It could but I doubt it in Alberta.

 

[MistyWaters]

Agreed. I think it should be first degree

I think they’re still compiling evidence by the usage of the word “targeted”. It’s very possible the charges will be upgraded.

BBM

“Calgary police Staff Sgt. Martin Schiavetta said Lovett and Leeming were romantically involved and called the murders “a targeted attack motivated by domestic-related matters.”
Bodies believed to be missing mom and toddler found in Kananaskis Country; charges pending

 

[MistyWaters]

"Without" parole. No guarantee of automatic parole.

Yes I noticed that too.

Murder and Manslaughter Charges, Canada
Penalty for 2nd degree murder

All those convicted of 2nd degree murder will receive a sentence of life imprisonment. Their parole eligibility date will be within a range of 10 to 25 years at the discretion of the judge.

 

[MistyWaters]

Also be aware of the "not criminally responsible" plea. Very often along the way in murder cases, a judge will order a psychiatric assessment of the person charged, usually 30 days, to determine if a person is fit to stand trial. This is sometimes renewed for a further 30 days. Sometimes people are not fit to stand trial at all.

If fit to stand trial, they can plead NCR.
If found NCR, this changes everything about sentencing. The regular time periods do not apply. A person can have a history of mental illness and be found guilty. Their state of mind at the time of the murder is what matters. This has to be proven in court.

Usually a NCR defence isn’t available to a defendant who hides the evidence of his crime or lies to cover it up because that proves they knew the difference between right and wrong.

But there’s also manslaughter, known as a crime of passion. Not pertinent to the murder of the child but sometimes it is involving domestic homicides, although I can’t imagine what defence RL might come up with to claim he was provoked.

Criminal Code

Murder reduced to manslaughter

• 232 (1) Culpable homicide that otherwise would be murder may be reduced to manslaughter if the person who committed it did so in the heat of passion caused by sudden provocation.
  
  What is provocation

(2) Conduct of the victim that would constitute an indictable offence under this Act that is punishable by five or more years of imprisonment and that is of such a nature as to be sufficient to deprive an ordinary person of the power of self-control is provocation for the purposes of this section, if the accused acted on it on the sudden and before there was time for their passion to cool.

 

[Snoop Sister]

delete

 

[Satchie]

It seems to me that he killed them one day and then disposed of them later, on another day. Almost like he had no plan. Someone who premeditates murder would plan out the disposal as well and not wait a couple days..IMO.

They have a reason for charging with 2nd degree, so I can only speculate why. Accidently killed Allyah then killed Jasmine when she reacted to that? If he killed Jasmine first and then killed the baby, that's a different kettle of fish. IMO

I think police have to have evidence showing pre-meditation to lay first degree murder charges. For example, Edward Downey went to Sara's home although they were not at all friendly, there was no other reason for him to go. Plus he parked far from the home, instead of in front. He also commented to someone about killing her. Taken together, those things reveal premeditation.

Saretzky went to Hailey's home in the middle of the night and broke in, that's enough to prove pre-meditation.

If police don't have solid evidence of pre-meditation, they have to lay 2nd degree charges. It's not that they know it was a 2nd degree scenario, but they're just lacking proof at this point. Jasmine lived in the home and socialized with the suspect, that makes it harder to prove he planned it.

ETA: forgot to mention Saretzky's list of intended victims. Can't get much more obviously premeditated than that.

 

[Gina20]

Usually a NCR defence isn’t available to a defendant who hides the evidence of his crime or lies to cover it up because that proves they knew the difference between right and wrong.

But there’s also manslaughter, known as a crime of passion. Not pertinent to the murder of the child but sometimes it is involving domestic homicides, although I can’t imagine what defence RL might come up with to claim he was provoked.

Criminal Code

Murder reduced to manslaughter

• 232 (1) Culpable homicide that otherwise would be murder may be reduced to manslaughter if the person who committed it did so in the heat of passion caused by sudden provocation.
  
  What is provocation

(2) Conduct of the victim that would constitute an indictable offence under this Act that is punishable by five or more years of imprisonment and that is of such a nature as to be sufficient to deprive an ordinary person of the power of self-control is provocation for the purposes of this section, if the accused acted on it on the sudden and before there was time for their passion to cool.

I think an NCR plea could be attempted in a case when someone with a documented mental illness went off their meds. However, being declared NCR isn't often successful.

 

[Gina20]

Note the dates:

"Police say this investigation is not over and would like to speak to anyone who was in the Grizzly Creek recreational area between Wednesday, April 17th and Sunday, April 21st and noticed anything suspicious or a grey Mercedes SUV."
From: Charges pending in the deaths of Jasmine Lovett and Aliyah Sanderson

 

[MistyWaters]

We don’t know what type of interaction they had with the person who saw them all together last, whether it was someone who only observed them from a distance or was it someone who stopped by. But it certainly does appear the two were both murdered later at home in the condo and indeed police found some sort of incriminating evidence during their search. The Bragg Creek area may not have been involved at all, other than the fabricated picnic story and an unsuccessful attempt to misdirect police.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-mother-daughter-bodies-found-1.5124889

“Police, however, said they were last seen on the evening of April 16 at their home in the southeast Calgary neighbourhood of Cranston....

....Schiavetta said its believed Lovett and Sanderson were killed between the evening of April 16 and the morning of April 17, and that their bodies were transported to the Grizzly Creek area between April 17 and April 20.....”

 

[bcgirl]

If convicted, would RL be deported back to the UK if he's not a Canadian citizen? What's everyone's take on that?

 

[otto]

If convicted, would RL be deported back to the UK if he's not a Canadian citizen? What's everyone's take on that?

After completing his sentence, he would be deported.

However, given that Canada and the UK are commonwealth countries, perhaps there would be an option for him to serve his sentence in the UK. That would be the most humane option since his family is there, but who knows.

 

[MistyWaters]

If convicted, would RL be deported back to the UK if he's not a Canadian citizen? What's everyone's take on that?

Regardless of where one is from, they’re charged, convicted and sentenced according to Cdn laws if the crime was committed here as well. So even though he’s not a Cdn citizen he wouldn’t be deported until after he served his entire sentence, if he’s still alive.

 

[mooliz]

How does a person with no money own a Mercedes? I can only imagine. It may be a used one, but upkeep is expensive. Windshield replacement: $$$.

Didn't Downey borrow a Mercedes?

He bought it last year and it's a '15. Those mid-size models must have been 70k CAD new. My mom has the smaller one and I the larger one--same color as his, though we both bought our '15s new.

Second degree, if the same in Canada as the US, implies no premeditation. Quite possible they had an argument due to their "deteriorating relationship" and he struck and killed her...maybe not meaning to kill her, but out of anger. Or he killed her in a moment of rage. Still no planning involved, or one that can be proven. JMO

Except that he killed two people. And ONE was definitely premeditated.

 

[hartsoup]

He bought it last year and it's a '15. Those mid-size models must have been 70k CAD new. My mom has the smaller one and I the larger one--same color as his, though we both bought our '15s new.

Except that he killed two people. And ONE was definitely premeditated.

He's going to get 2 x 2nd degree murder charges. I don't think they will go for 1st degree even for Aliyah. Police would have to prove that he planned both or either murder beforehand. That can be difficult to prove after the fact, especially with no surviving witnesses. Let's hope he gets 1st though.

 

[hartsoup]

After completing his sentence, he would be deported.

However, given that Canada and the UK are commonwealth countries, perhaps there would be an option for him to serve his sentence in the UK. That would be the most humane option since his family is there, but who knows.

Highly unlikely that he would be deported. There was a case where a man was already slated to be deported, then murdered someone and was sentanced to prison in Canada where he remains. CPS won't hand this guy over to the UK... he's a permanent resident, tax payer that killed two people in Canada. It would have to be Canada's burden to keep him here unfortunately.

Let's watch his purp walk to feel better about it a little tiny bit:
Double murder suspect escorted into arrest processing unit

 

[hartsoup]

I think they’re still compiling evidence by the usage of the word “targeted”. It’s very possible the charges will be upgraded.

BBM

“Calgary police Staff Sgt. Martin Schiavetta said Lovett and Leeming were romantically involved and called the murders “a targeted attack motivated by domestic-related matters.”
Bodies believed to be missing mom and toddler found in Kananaskis Country; charges pending

Targeted is only really used to differentiate between random murder or "targeted" murder. As in she was the intended target of the suspect.

 

[MistyWaters]

Targeted is only really used to differentiate between random murder or "targeted" murder. As in she was the intended target of the suspect.

Looking at other recent convictions of other people in Canada, I notice a trend toward 2nd degree murder charges where the victim and the accused were involved in some type of domestic, family interconnected relationship and 1st degree more so when there is no direct association with the victim (Saretzky, Garland).

For example this recent 2nd degree murder trial in Surrey could easily be construed to be 1st degree, but that charge was never applied -

https://www.cloverdalereporter.com/...of-second-degree-murder-in-death-of-daughter/

 

[hartsoup]

Looking at other recent convictions of other people in Canada, I notice a trend toward 2nd degree murder charges where the victim and the accused were involved in some type of domestic, family interconnected relationship and 1st degree more so when there is no direct involvement (Saretzky, Garland).

For example this recent 2nd degree murder trial in Surrey could easily be construed to be 1st degree, but that charge was never applied -

https://www.cloverdalereporter.com/...of-second-degree-murder-in-death-of-daughter/

Yeah it's very tricky to get 1st degree to stick, again because you have to prove beyond doubt that the accused pre-meditated the murder, plotted it out and went through with it. Even if it's obvious that it was a planned attack, if you can't prove it in court, then 1st degree won't stick and there's a chance charges get dropped or re-filed. If you don't have physical evidence showing pre-meditation 2nd degree is the best you can hope for and in cases like Leeming you can still see life in prison without parole for many many years.