Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #13

[aphoto]

It's obvious that RCMP had challenges in securing crime scenes around Gillam. They specifically requested numerous times that media not publish photos of their location, and sure enough the media published photos of their locations during the York Landing search.

RCMP eventually set up road blocks well away from search areas to manage media.

We know that they searched the Rav4 location, and they returned to that area after the boat was found. Hopefully media did not disturb the scene too much.

We know that if media could access the location where the bodies were found, they were be standing in the crime scene taking photos today.

The request to not publish images of their location wasn’t a request to never publish it was a request to not publish in real time which as far as I know all media complied with. Media couldn’t get images out in real time anyway due to the cell service limitations at York Landing. Trust me I was there. It’s further evidenced by the cop who had to shoot in to the ground to communicate as their radios barely even worked there.

The request was for officer safety, revealing the locations hours later isn’t an issue.

The area of the body retrieval was secured for officer safety. Collecting forensic evidence puts officers in a vulnerable position essentially as sitting ducks. They don’t want to be ambushed. They also don’t want anyone knowing the bodies have been found until next of kin can be notified.

The police didn’t have the RAV4 scene secured. Securing a scene involves maintaining a 24 hour police presence which once the car was removed they did not do.

 

[Optics]

We know that they searched the Rav4 location, and they returned to that area after the boat was found. Hopefully media did not disturb the scene too much.
We know that if media could access the location where the bodies were found, they were be standing in the crime scene taking photos today.

Actually they returned to that area immediately after disproving the York Landing tip

 

[webbie]

Some people here believe there was a 3rd person traveling with them so the possibility that there was another unaccounted for murder isn’t beyond the realm of possibility.

So.... because some people here believe there was a 3rd person traveling with them, you believe this to be possible?
Am I reading/understanding you correctly?

 

[otto]

Count me in, in puzzling over this. It's the Summer of 2019 and we have a series of crimes by millenials (and I would love to know whether K/B used the word, whether they hated the word, and how they saw themselves within that generation). In the US, we're seeing an uptick in suicide among millenials. Many US colleges do an annual survey on mental health, and both suicide attempts and procurement of the means of suicide are up, three years running. So what's up? Extensive suicide is part of this picture (where the suicidal person takes out other people) has been studied, but much more needs to be done. "I want to die and I want to take people with me" can be consciously worked out (or not).

When this story first unfolded, it seemed to me that even if some specific interactions can be established between K/B and their victims (attempted robbery, desire to steal food and camping equipment, etc), K/B may have hated society in general (hence the flight to the North) and all people (but by leaving their hometown, they avoided giving in to impulses to harm their "own people"). I think they wanted to kill and to show their intense hatred for society and social norms. They also wanted to die.

One anthropologist, who was on staff at a workplace shooting (mental health facility, shooter was a worker, male, and depressed) developed a rubric that indicates in many cases, suicidal people are at risk for being perpetrators of homicide. Killing any human (including self) violates a major, universal taboo. Someone who is willing to violate taboos (whether universal or local) and kill (anyone) is...willing to kill humans. They are beyond that point. Most of us are not.

Garden variety antisocial types (often called sociopaths in popular culture) are usually into self-preservation, not suicide. Suicidal persons whose ideation includes killing others are not uncommon, although clinical studies on the subject aren't adequate.

Is this becoming more common in the general population? The writings or alleged ideas of some of these killers (mostly shooters, btw) are not out of the blue. Thousands of other people hold similar views (and connect on the internet in various ways, creating much larger subcultures than would have been possible 50 years ago).

With Canada's abhorrence of gun culture, the actions of K/B are in a completely different context than similar crimes in the US, IMO. But...with the blurring of national culture through internet culture, perhaps K/B were less Canadian and more part of some global youth culture of their own choosing. I'd love to know.

Today, everyone can choose (and re-choose) the cultures to which they wish to belong.

You are quite right in that post-secondary institutions have put a big spotlight on mental health. Students feel overwhelmed with the work load and high performance expectations. They are also expected to be good citizens and work part-time. Many people between the ages of 18 - 22 are overwhelmed with the demands and have thoughts of suicide. This trend follows closely on previously observed changes in post-secondary students: the "entitled" generation that expects a top grade for attending class and completing assignments. The redefining of "identity" has probably inspired a lot of young adults to question whether they are what they want to be, or whether they would rather be medically altered to be someone completely different - that alone has to be confusing.

I had a conversation with a 17 year old not long ago who learned at public high school that if nothing changes with population growth and global warming, the planet will be uninhabitable in 35 years. If we have a generation who sees a future of doom and gloom, they will approach life very differently than previous generations and centuries of civilization.

 

[otto]

I take it we still don't know if the bodies were away from the river in a place they might've tried to take shelter OR lying amid the brush as if they had been washed there?

They were in the thick Manitoba bush, so they walked there.

 

[sandbar]

MAP/MATH HELP NEEDED:

The military captured 11,000 sq miles of imagery (~28000 sq kms) that's approx the size of Haiti
"Countries Compared by Geography > Land area > Sq. km. International Statistics at NationMaster.com", Food and Agriculture Organisation, electronic files and web site. Aggregates compiled by NationMaster. Retrieved from Countries Compared by Geography > Land area > Sq. km. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

@otto, can you maybe please draw an 11,000 sq mile box on your beautiful map? I recognize that 11000 square miles can be configured on myriad ways, but I can't fathom what that looks like...

 

[aphoto]

So.... because some people here believe there was a 3rd person traveling with them, you believe this to be possible?
Am I reading/understanding you correctly?

No I think the 3rd person idea is insane. I spoke personally to the last two people to see the pair and none of them mentioned seeing a third person. I’m saying that the keys are much more likely to be relevant that this far fetched notion of a 3rd person.

 

[otto]

No, you are completely wrong about why people got "up in arms" about this. As someone who lives in the area and as someone else has mentioned, random murders by "gun violence" are very uncommon here. This caught our attention because they were two suspicious deaths on the highway. It did not matter that they were tourists. These ARE outstanding deaths, because they are murders on a well traveled highway that sees very little (if any!) of this.

Help me understand. It was all over the news in BC on July 16 that there were two suspicious deaths on the Alaska hwy and Major Crimes was investigating. Did people ignore the information, are they not interested in local news? Why would people expect RCMP and Alaska police to do more?

 

[missy1974]

What sort of warning should there be?
What sort of warnings did Alaska police post?

I'm a bit torn on this, because I hate 2nd guessing the RCMP, but I don't know why the RCMP didn't do more to warn travellers in the area. I have travelled out to BC from SK many times, not up north, but through the mountains. They have roadside signs everywhere there and it would have been easy to have a warning put on them (as they did asking for dashcam footage). I don't know about everyone else or about that area, but when I'm travelling, I disconnect from SM and disconnect from news, and there are places that finding a local radio station or local news is just not something that can be done or I just don't do it. But those signs, we always make sure to slow down to read what they say... because they are there for a reason and it's usually to be informative.

I don't know if a warning would have changed what happened to Mr. Dyck, since we will probably never know the circumstances, but it could have prompted the boys to leave the area sooner so they weren't noticed or it could have prompted others to come forward sooner with sightings and/or fresher memories.

This is one thing that I hope the RCMP looks into.

 

[10ofRods]

I wish people would use their energy more productively. Like the suspects: there's an outdoor leadership training centre close to their home, they teach wilderness skills, challenging sports like sea-kayaking and mountaineering. Something real, where opinion doesn't matter, but skill does.

I totally agree.

Lots of times, teens need to be pushed into these activities by proactive parents. Heck, many of them are required to attend college (which is challenging) as the price of living at home for free. These days, many parents do not even require their children to work a part time job.

Being good at a skill is strongly associated with higher self-esteem and less anxiety. But if you're 18 and still can't perform basic grade school functions, it's no wonder that person has low self-esteem.

 

[scrappinkat]

I had a conversation with a 17 year old not long ago who learned at public high school that if nothing changes with population growth and global warming, the planet will be uninhabitable in 35 years. If we have a generation who sees a future of doom and gloom, they will approach life very differently than previous generations and centuries of civilization.

I graduated in the early 90s, I remember that being a big concern for kids my age throughout high school as well. Although it was simply an “in my lifetime” consideration, not within a certain amount of years timeframe.

 

[otto]

I would have expected a warning that same day, July 15. Not 24hrs later.

Northern BC, northern Alberta, Yukon and Alaska are all connected very well because of the highways despite the huge distances. Everyone in this area should have been warned. And not just "oh jeez, suspicious deaths" but a warning that there may be a killer on the hwy.

RCMP learned about the bodies at the side of the road at 7AM July 15. They knew nothing about the victims, the vehicle, or how and why they were deceased.

RCMP, stationed 4 hours away, would have arrived at 11AM. I recall reading that it took 11 hours for the coroner to examine the bodies. That puts the time at 10PM when RCMP learned that the victims died of gun violence.

Clearly, the earliest that the information could be released was July 16.

Regarding announcing a "killer on the highway," RCMP did not know that. It could have been a domestic situation where the victims lived near the murder scene. They had no idea what may have happened for 3 days when Chynna's passport was found.

 

[gitana1]

I'm a bit torn on this, because I hate 2nd guessing the RCMP, but I don't know why the RCMP didn't do more to warn travellers in the area. I have travelled out to BC from SK many times, not up north, but through the mountains. They have roadside signs everywhere there and it would have been easy to have a warning put on them (as they did asking for dashcam footage). I don't know about everyone else or about that area, but when I'm travelling, I disconnect from SM and disconnect from news, and there are places that finding a local radio station or local news is just not something that can be done or I just don't do it. But those signs, we always make sure to slow down to read what they say... because they are there for a reason and it's usually to be informative.

I don't know if a warning would have changed what happened to Mr. Dyck, since we will probably never know the circumstances, but it could have prompted the boys to leave the area sooner so they weren't noticed or it could have prompted others to come forward sooner with sightings and/or fresher memories.

This is one thing that I hope the RCMP looks into.

Because the apparent homicide of two people in the same event outside their van simply does not indicate a pattern or threat to the community. Murders are by and large isolated events and victims are typically targeted and/or known by their killers.

It's only after LE sees various different homicides that patterns may start to emerge that indicate a danger to the community.

Panicking the public by alerting them to a threat of murder that at the time they couldn't reasonably have determined existed, could bring more harm than good. People pulled over shooting to death a Good Samaritan because they think he or she is a murderer coming to get them. Tourists avoiding Canada like the plague and depriving towns of important revenue due to hysteria over a possible serial killer when there was not one thing to indicate, at that moment, that a serial killer was on the loose.

Etc.

 

[otto]

The request to not publish images of their location wasn’t a request to never publish it was a request to not publish in real time which as far as I know all media complied with. Media couldn’t get images out in real time anyway due to the cell service limitations at York Landing. Trust me I was there. It’s further evidenced by the cop who had to shoot in to the ground to communicate as their radios barely even worked there.

The request was for officer safety, revealing the locations hours later isn’t an issue.

The area of the body retrieval was secured for officer safety. Collecting forensic evidence puts officers in a vulnerable position essentially as sitting ducks. They don’t want to be ambushed. They also don’t want anyone knowing the bodies have been found until next of kin can be notified.

The police didn’t have the RAV4 scene secured. Securing a scene involves maintaining a 24 hour police presence which once the car was removed they did not do.

RCMP could not secure all scenes during the 2 week investigation. Hopefully the media did not disturb crime scenes while RCMP were slogging through bog and bugs in pursuit of the suspects.

 

[sandbar]

Count me in, in puzzling over this. It's the Summer of 2019 and we have a series of crimes by millenials (and I would love to know whether K/B used the word, whether they hated the word, and how they saw themselves within that generation). In the US, we're seeing an uptick in suicide among millenials. Many US colleges do an annual survey on mental health, and both suicide attempts and procurement of the means of suicide are up, three years running. So what's up? Extensive suicide is part of this picture (where the suicidal person takes out other people) has been studied, but much more needs to be done. "I want to die and I want to take people with me" can be consciously worked out (or not).

When this story first unfolded, it seemed to me that even if some specific interactions can be established between K/B and their victims (attempted robbery, desire to steal food and camping equipment, etc), K/B may have hated society in general (hence the flight to the North) and all people (but by leaving their hometown, they avoided giving in to impulses to harm their "own people"). I think they wanted to kill and to show their intense hatred for society and social norms. They also wanted to die.

One anthropologist, who was on staff at a workplace shooting (mental health facility, shooter was a worker, male, and depressed) developed a rubric that indicates in many cases, suicidal people are at risk for being perpetrators of homicide. Killing any human (including self) violates a major, universal taboo. Someone who is willing to violate taboos (whether universal or local) and kill (anyone) is...willing to kill humans. They are beyond that point. Most of us are not.

Garden variety antisocial types (often called sociopaths in popular culture) are usually into self-preservation, not suicide. Suicidal persons whose ideation includes killing others are not uncommon, although clinical studies on the subject aren't adequate.

Is this becoming more common in the general population? The writings or alleged ideas of some of these killers (mostly shooters, btw) are not out of the blue. Thousands of other people hold similar views (and connect on the internet in various ways, creating much larger subcultures than would have been possible 50 years ago).

With Canada's abhorrence of gun culture, the actions of K/B are in a completely different context than similar crimes in the US, IMO. But...with the blurring of national culture through internet culture, perhaps K/B were less Canadian and more part of some global youth culture of their own choosing. I'd love to know.

Today, everyone can choose (and re-choose) the cultures to which they wish to belong.

WOW, SO well said. Thank you. Contextual Culture, as opposed to Cultural Context. (I just made those terms up btw.) Contextual Culture: we are all shape shifters, particularly teens.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Count me in, in puzzling over this. It's the Summer of 2019 and we have a series of crimes by millenials (and I would love to know whether K/B used the word, whether they hated the word, and how they saw themselves within that generation). In the US, we're seeing an uptick in suicide among millenials. Many US colleges do an annual survey on mental health, and both suicide attempts and procurement of the means of suicide are up, three years running. So what's up? Extensive suicide is part of this picture (where the suicidal person takes out other people) has been studied, but much more needs to be done. "I want to die and I want to take people with me" can be consciously worked out (or not).

Now waaaaait a minute...these dudes were NOT millennials. Millennials are born 1980-1994ish or so. Bryer was born in 2000 and Kam was born in either 2000 or 1999. They're Gen Z. I know everyone loves to pin everything on us millennials but they're definitely without a doubt not even part of that generation.

Ok this is a bit off topic but since you asked...as a person who was suicidal on and off for about 8 years (ages 16-24) and still battles depression and anxiety on a daily basis, I have several theories on why suicide rates might be increasing (and other stuff like drug abuse). I think we have a huge lack of community in modern society. It's a very cutthroat, dog eat dog culture. I live in the NYC area so it's even more so around here I think. There's a narrative that you have to claw your way up to the top and grab whatever you can before someone else does. A lot of people, the lower socioeconomic classes, people without good social skills, etc. get abandoned in this culture and so there are entire regions of the country where people feel like their lives don't matter. Also because of this lack of community, there aren't a lot of buffers against dysfunctional family dynamics. A kid can grow up with violence and a lot of times it's concealed so nobody ever knows, and even if the police or social services find out, the amount of *advertiser censored**s they give is not very much, because their budgets are not very large...plus oftentimes their response is to villainize the entire family including the victims as just "trash" not worth trying to help. There's so many people out there who are extremely isolated and nobody cares until they do something like kill themselves. Between all this a lot of people just burn out. Even if they started out successful, or especially if they never did, they just stop feeling like any of it matters and basically take themselves out of society, whether that's through suicide, drug abuse, crime, or just hiding away from the world on the internet all day.

K/B may have hated society in general (hence the flight to the North) and all people (but by leaving their hometown, they avoided giving in to impulses to harm their "own people"). I think they wanted to kill and to show their intense hatred for society and social norms. They also wanted to die.

One anthropologist, who was on staff at a workplace shooting (mental health facility, shooter was a worker, male, and depressed) developed a rubric that indicates in many cases, suicidal people are at risk for being perpetrators of homicide. Killing any human (including self) violates a major, universal taboo. Someone who is willing to violate taboos (whether universal or local) and kill (anyone) is...willing to kill humans. They are beyond that point. Most of us are not.

I mean...I can't really agree with that as a general rule. Probably 99% of people who kill themselves would never kill other people. A lot of times suicide comes about because of a lack of self-esteem and feeling like one is inferior to other people, even if it is subconscious. Or it is due to running out of energy to deal with difficult life circumstances. It doesn't necessarily have to do with hate for others or the world.

Also, I think the vast majority of the population has, at one point or another, had a moment where they were angry enough at someone, or the world, or whatever, that they fantasized about murder. Especially in adolescence because the mood swings of adolescence are insane. But thinking about murder and actually doing it are entirely different things. However it is possible that in some suicidal people, their perspective changes so they don't even see death as a bad thing.

Garden variety antisocial types (often called sociopaths in popular culture) are usually into self-preservation, not suicide. Suicidal persons whose ideation includes killing others are not uncommon, although clinical studies on the subject aren't adequate.

That's why I wonder about their specific psychological issues. I feel like most sociopaths wouldn't take themselves out. I mean I guess some of them do like Eric Harris (Columbine shooter), but still. I also feel like sociopaths usually enjoy prison and wouldn't be afraid to go there, although they may try to avoid it so they can continue their preferred activities. Plus sociopaths have no fear and these two definitely seemed very scared. I am just some random person on the internet though, so I probably have no clue what I'm talking about. Plus, sociopathy is a spectrum, not a black and white thing.

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

I don't know.
And neither do you...
I mean about anything, because police keep all kinds of info to themselves. To me a key question hasn't been answered: when was LD killed? (not when was he found) and when was his last known sighting alive?
I also think it's key to know specifically when K&B left PA (date and time) not just 12 July.
Also, what they took with them.
People seem to be focusing on the end of this tragedy. It ended in a way that was very public, and easy to speculate about/criticize/discuss: there are some concrete people, places and things that we can ponder. IMO what they were up to hours, days or weeks before they left is more indicative of motive, ability, mindset, etc. And that is the stuff that LE might or might not release, and reporters might or might not pursue through a freedom of information request.
It's also easier to ask and answer "why would they go here or do that, etc" than to ask and answer what our role is in a society/culture that made these two and what's with our fascination after the fact...
Just to be clear, these are rhetorical questions and I'm wondering if anyone else is puzzling this out on this level...

I really hope the RCMP decide to share much of the story in the coming days and weeks, as best and openly they can, with perhaps the exception of anything that may be of privacy concern to the victim's families.

Right now, there is something that's bothering me about this case, and my spidy senses are definitely tingling. I have some alternate theories which I obviously can't post here without being banned. However, they are not complete theories, but rather pieces that may compose a theory that I still need to coalesce in my head.

I have a big problem with the trend in policing in the country with respect to secrecy. On all levels (municipal, provincial, and national), police are becoming more and more unwilling to share information...it's not just individuals in the ranks that are doing so, but it's becoming dangerously systemic, IMO. If you want the best example, look no further than the Toronto Danforth shooting...there are more red flags and elephants in the room in that case than you can imagine, and the police have gone radio silent with the exception of a whitewashed statement a year later. There are dozens and dozens of other examples.

To compound the issue, the media are becoming complicit cowards. There is barely a true investigative journalist left in the country that is affiliated with any major media outlet. True investigative journalism has gone underground or independent. With a compliant and complicit media, there is nobody to hold the police or politicians to account. I blame part of the issue to the corporatization and consolidation of the major media organizations, in that they now have the means to control their reporters completely...nowhere to go when you get fired as a reporter now. It's all one big media conglomerate at the top.

It's for these reasons I'm not holding out a lot of hope we are going to get any satisfactory information out of this case. It's the typical MO of LE these days to offer nothing but a few dog bones to make the pacified public and complicit media go away and back to sleep.

Prove me wrong, RCMP.

 

[Jealoushe]

Just wondering why anyone thinks that the Australian police would be involved in this case beyond being a liaison for the Fowler family? They literally have no jurisdiction in Canada.

I thought one of the victims parents was Aus LE?

 

[missy1974]

RCMP send alerts out the key is whether media picks up and runs with the alerts, and sadly initially most media was ignoring was was growing into an international and cross country chase.

RSBM

Do you know or does anyone know... was an Alert sent out in this case? If there was no alert in those first days, how was the media going to run with it?

I found BC RCMP public alerts, and I don't see it, but not sure if this is an exhaustive list of all alerts.

RCMP in British Columbia - Public Alerts

 

[Moonlitnight]

Shaking my head, here. Has anyone read the comments on the DM article with the headline about pork chops and oranges being the last meal after two weeks on the run? People who have not followed the story are taking the DM story as truth, word for word. They are all convinced that these two had brought pork chops and oranges into the woods with them and ate them after two weeks had passed. They are even suggesting in the comments that the pork chops had gone bad after two weeks in the woods and food poisoning killed them.

Just an example of how some poorly placed words in a headline or subheader can lead to a public frenzy that is based on pure b.s. (fake news!)

I know the DM is little more than a tabloid but they always seem to have more news and get it faster than any of the major news networks. Lately, I have barely even looked at the news; I've relied on Twitter and the reporters who have been in Gillam since the search there began. And here on WS, of course.

That tab is the absolute limit. They make it up as they go along.