Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[Jan424]

I wouldn't be surprised if at the least, KM's toxicology shows some sort of heavy stimulant use.
If nothing else, he may have used something just to stay awake for all of that driving. BS may have done the same, to stay awake and keep him company.
BS could have been squirreling away his own meds in anticipation of the trip, or they could have purchased street drugs, or they could have purchased OTC stimulants. Or any combination thereof. It's possible that KM had his own meds; if he was attending VAST he may have had his own learning or behavioral disabilities that were being managed through meds.

SBM
Definitely stimulants is what I was thinking .... and I have also been wondering if Kam perhaps was on any prescription meds along with Bryer. In that case, they both could have been abusing those drugs. MOO

 

[Jan424]

I think suicide was always the endgame and they knew it. In fact I think suicide was the whole point, as it generally is for spree killers.
Literally all the other videos are about suicide and preparing for death. You can't possibly claim Bryer wasn't ready to die because clearly he was.

Absolutely they knew suicide was their endgame, unless they foolishly thought early on they might escape. And I believe they BOTH were ready to die, I don't think for one second either had any hesitation. MOO!

 

[Esprite]

Absolutely they knew suicide was their endgame, unless they foolishly thought early on they might escape. And I believe they BOTH were ready to die, I don't think for one second either had any hesitation. MOO!

I have always felt that driving to the very end of the road was symbolic of the end of life in their minds, and that a suicide pact was at play. Also, carrying out three heinous murders publicly was their only chance for any fame in their pathetic lives. They could have easily died together without randomly snuffing out the lives of three wonderful humans who gave so much to the world.

 

[Jan424]

I have always felt that driving to the very end of the road was symbolic of the end of life in their minds, and that a suicide pact was at play. Also, carrying out three heinous murders publicly was their only chance for any fame in their pathetic lives. They could have easily died together without snuffing out the lives of three wonderful humans who gave so much to the world.

Yes, if they hated their lives so much, why not just take yourselves out in total dramatic fashion ... instead of also taking with you 3 innocents who actually valued life and tried to live it to the fullest. But this happens time and time again, unfortunately. IMO

 

[Runningforthewind]

Yes, if they hated their lives so much, why not just take yourselves out in total dramatic fashion ... instead of also taking with you 3 innocents who actually valued life and tried to live it to the fullest. But this happens time and time again, unfortunately. IMO

Nobody at 18 and 19 year of age should hate themselves to the point they want to end their own lives, never mind murder 3 people. How do two teens with no criminal record, no history of violence and by most described as good people choose this?

I give my condolences to the three families of those who lost their lives to violence. It's a tragedy, and my compassion and thoughts are with them.

But I believe Kam and Bryer deserve some compassion. It's not a matter of condoning their actions, but they were young. What went wrong? What was the feeling behind closed doors that they thought their only option in life was too to do this?

The question should be "What can we do differently going forward?" Not "Why didn' they just take themselves out instead?" We don't want to wish death on anyone. These two boys weren't always monsters. They had a family who loved them. So what went wrong?

 

[Jan424]

Nobody at 18 and 19 year of age should hate themselves to the point they want to end their own lives, never mind murder 3 people. How do two teens with no criminal record, no history of violence and by most described as good people choose this?

But I believe Kam and Bryer deserve some compassion. It's not a matter of condoning their actions, but they were young. What went wrong? What was the feeling behind closed doors that they thought their only option in life was too to do this?

The question should be "What can we do differently going forward?" Not "Why didn' they just take themselves out instead?" We don't want to wish death on anyone. These two boys weren't always monsters. They had a family who loved them. So what went wrong?

I agree that no one, at any age, should feel so despondent or desperate that they should want to end their lives. And so you know, in many past threads, I expressed MUCH compassion for Kam and Bryer and still do, in fact. That's not what I'm saying. Sadly, if anyone is determined to end their life, they will ... as in this case. I certainly didn't want Kam and Bryer to commit suicide, however, I do indeed wish they didn't feel the added need to murder 3 innocent people while they were at it. We don't know what went wrong, unfortunately. MOO

 

[Runningforthewind]

I agree that no one, at any age, should feel so despondent or desperate that they should want to end their lives. And so you know, in many past threads, I expressed MUCH compassion for Kam and Bryer and still do, in fact. That's not what I'm saying. Sadly, if anyone is determined to end their life, they will ... as in this case. I certainly didn't want Kam and Bryer to commit suicide, however, I do indeed wish they didn't feel the added need to murder 3 innocent people while they were at it. We don't know what went wrong, unfortunately. MOO

I didn't mean to single you out. It was just your comment that spark my thoughts. This whole case had brought out a lot of different thoughts and emotions, and I don't even know these two.

 

[sandbar]

How do two teens with no criminal record, no history of violence and by most described as good people choose this?

Maybe the problem is that people think they know other people, when really it is impossible to say "I know this person." It's ridiculous verging on arrogant to think that anyone could know and accurately describe that person's experience.

In order to "know" someone we'd have to eliminate our self, our thoughts, beliefs and biases. Or, to look beyond those inputs. It's impossible to do and arrogant to think it can be done.

 

[LoisLane]

It doesn't take 19 seconds to say "hey, we're going to kill ourselves." That alone indicates to me they "described" (as it was phrased) how they would do it.

And yes the totality of evidence leads them to that scenario, but the fact that they mentioned "the content of the videos" as one indication that "McLeod shot Schmegelsky in a suicide pact" indicates that there could have been something in the videos that led them to that conclusion.



Kam was described as really loyal by several of his friends. I think they were both loyal to each other...a militia of two.



Technically the description isn't clear on which of them said that, or if they both did. I'm also pretty sure it wasn't meant seriously. They may have said it to be dramatic or even as a dark joke. I think suicide was always the endgame and they knew it. In fact I think suicide was the whole point, as it generally is for spree killers.

Literally all the other videos are about suicide and preparing for death. You can't possibly claim Bryer wasn't ready to die because clearly he was.



I see. Well maybe they just don't even remember making the sale and have no idea.



I feel that they did based on the quote I posted. However, we've discussed how this report is full of poorly worded stuff.

I’d have to go back to listen to the presser but IIRC correctly KM filmed BS in the videos and BS stated the marching off to which KM agreed.. so we can speculate on how that happened and to what degree whether it was joking or not. For me I imagine it as filming BS making ridiculous claims because KM enjoyed watching BS make an idiot of himself and he encouraged it. JMO.

ETA.. regarding your other comment to me “You can't possibly claim Bryer wasn't ready to die because clearly he was”... I did not claim BS wasn’t ready to die. I’m suggesting the agreement didn’t happen the way he wanted it to.

 

[SovereignSnake]

Alcohol is a drug.
Ritalin is a drug.
Caffeine is a drug.

@sandbar fair point but I was referring to the hard stuff. PCP, meth, heroine, oxycontin, etc. The stuff you have to go well out of your way to obtain. Not something I can just drive over to the gas station or a dispensary to buy legally.

 

[Jan424]

I didn't mean to single you out. It was just your comment that spark my thoughts. This whole case had brought out a lot of different thoughts and emotions, and I don't even know these two.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I haven't stopped thinking of this entire case since it began. It is sad all the way around .... 5 lives lost, 5 families broken.

 

[sandbar]

@sandbar fair point but I was referring to the hard stuff. PCP, meth, heroine, oxycontin, etc. The stuff you have to go well out of your way to obtain. Not something I can just drive over to the gas station or a dispensary to buy legally.

People get pretty out of their heads on alcohol, and that's just a quick hike to the LCBO...

 

[Esprite]

Nobody at 18 and 19 year of age should hate themselves to the point they want to end their own lives, never mind murder 3 people. How do two teens with no criminal record, no history of violence and by most described as good people choose this?

I give my condolences to the three families of those who lost their lives to violence. It's a tragedy, and my compassion and thoughts are with them.

But I believe Kam and Bryer deserve some compassion. It's not a matter of condoning their actions, but they were young. What went wrong? What was the feeling behind closed doors that they thought their only option in life was too to do this?

The question should be "What can we do differently going forward?" Not "Why didn' they just take themselves out instead?" We don't want to wish death on anyone. These two boys weren't always monsters. They had a family who loved them. So what went wrong?

I encounter male teenagers a lot in my role with child services. All I can say is that so many of them are filled with an enormous rage against the world that they often internalize, and fuel through violent online gaming. Their tendency is to either be charming and tell me a pack of lies, or to clam up and say pretty much nothing, although their body language speaks volumes. I'm not a therapist, but have been told that the same happens during therapy where they can't wait to escape personal questions.

The illusion of the perfect family seems to make little difference, and we cannot go back to the good old days which is often considered the ideal environment for child rearing. It never was, but the majority of us survived regardless, and some have used their experiences as a springboard to help others. Unfortunately, that help is often ignored, or outright rejected, and probably rightfully so, as we really have no right to tell others how to live their lives.

However, I have also encountered children over the years who are not affected by suggestion or empathy whatsoever. Some have nonchalantly told me of their fantasies involving killing their pets, siblings, parents, teachers etc in the most horrible ways imaginable, while looking me straight in the eye to gauge my reaction. Relaying these encounters to their parents accomplishes nothing, as they seldom believe that their child would be capable of doing this. There is really no effective means to help them, as therapy, punitive measures, and kindness really accomplish very little.

 

[LoisLane]

Maybe the problem is that people think they know other people, when really it is impossible to say "I know this person." It's ridiculous verging on arrogant to think that anyone could know and accurately describe that person's experience.

In order to "know" someone we'd have to eliminate our self, our thoughts, beliefs and biases. Or, to look beyond those inputs. It's impossible to do and arrogant to think it can be done.

With the way BS had been summarized in the media by his peers, neighbour, father, etc. (Except for his maternal side who said good things) it has painted a pretty stereotypical description and then for KM the limited coverage has made him out to be such a kind, loyal, funny, nice person. Which for me makes it even more concerning that someone “like KM” was capable and also so overlooked as having severe problems swirling inside. That is even more concerning IMO. A good boy who plays in the forest, hunts with his father, helps anyone in need could escalate to something so catastrophic.

 

[Jan424]

I encounter male teenagers a lot in my role with child services. All I can say is that so many of them are filled with an enormous rage against the world that they often internalize, and fuel through violent online gaming. Their tendency is to either be charming and tell me a pack of lies, or to clam up and say pretty much nothing, although their body language speaks volumes. I'm not a therapist, but have been told that the same happens during therapy where they can't wait to escape personal questions.

The illusion of the perfect family seems to make little difference, and we cannot go back to the good old days which is often considered the ideal environment for child rearing. It never was, but the majority of us survived regardless, and some have used their experiences as a springboard to help others. Unfortunately, that help is often ignored, or outright rejected, and probably rightfully so, as we really have no right to tell others how to live their lives.

However, I have also encountered children over the years who are not affected by suggestion or empathy whatsoever. Some have nonchalantly told me of their fantasies involving killing their pets, siblings, parents, teachers etc in the most horrible ways imaginable, while looking me straight in the eye to gauge my reaction. Relaying these encounters to their parents accomplishes nothing, as they seldom believe that their child would be capable of doing this. There is really no effective means to help them, as therapy, punitive measures, and kindness really accomplish very little.

Wow, this is a very interesting post, thank you.

 

[sandbar]

I think the stereotype works both ways. Either:
"he was such a nice guy", or
"he gave me the creeps"

Observers are going to get it right 50% of the time.

Because no one is willing to say, "I saw signs that this person needs help and I stepped up." No one. That's the reality.

 

[LoisLane]

I think the stereotype works both ways. Either:
"he was such a nice guy", or
"he gave me the creeps"

Observers are going to get it right 50% of the time.

Because no one is willing to say, "I saw signs that this person needs help and I stepped up." No one. That's the reality.

I agree.

BS’s father might not agree though. He is stating that he tried to save his son over the years and was shut down, court ordered, denied access etc.

 

[FactFinder3000]

It doesn't take 19 seconds to say "hey, we're going to kill ourselves." That alone indicates to me they "described" (as it was phrased) how they would do it.

And yes the totality of evidence leads them to that scenario, but the fact that they mentioned "the content of the videos" as one indication that "McLeod shot Schmegelsky in a suicide pact" indicates that there could have been something in the videos that led them to that conclusion.

Again the quote is:
"Based on the autopsy findings, the firearms lab report, analysis of the scene and the content of the videos it is believed that McLeod shot Schmegelsky before shooting himself in a suicide pact."

They list 4 things:
- autopsy findings
- firearms lab report
- analysis of the scene
- content of the videos

There are 3 conclusions:
- McLeod shot Schmegelsky
- McLeod shot himself
- it was a suicide pact

All I'm saying that not every one of the four premises points to every one of the conclusions. The statement does not imply that the video states McLeod was going to shoot Schmegelsky. Yes, you are correct in that it does not rule it out.

Kam was described as really loyal by several of his friends. I think they were both loyal to each other...a militia of two.

Nobody who knows Kam wants to believe he could be involved in this. Clearly nobody really knew him.

I have this feeling that Kam surprised Bryer. We are talking about a couple of cold-blooded remorseless killers here. If that's what Kam wanted to do, I have no doubt that he would just do it. Why not?

On the other hand, we do have the last two videos. They announce that they are going to commit suicide, and then they say what they want done with their bodies. So it's kind of hard to argue that Kam surprised Bryer. But he still could have.

I guess I just have a hard time believing that Bryer asked Kam to kill him. Yes, it's by far the safer option, but still, it just doesn't sit right. It just doesn't fit the homicide/suicide fantasies, in my view.

Anyway, just thinking out loud, I guess. I really don't know on this one.

 

[Hanami]

Nobody at 18 and 19 year of age should hate themselves to the point they want to end their own lives, never mind murder 3 people. How do two teens with no criminal record, no history of violence and by most described as good people choose this?

I give my condolences to the three families of those who lost their lives to violence. It's a tragedy, and my compassion and thoughts are with them.

But I believe Kam and Bryer deserve some compassion. It's not a matter of condoning their actions, but they were young. What went wrong? What was the feeling behind closed doors that they thought their only option in life was too to do this?

The question should be "What can we do differently going forward?" Not "Why didn' they just take themselves out instead?" We don't want to wish death on anyone. These two boys weren't always monsters. They had a family who loved them. So what went wrong?

I definitely agree with you here. This is a huge tragedy that has victimized many people and I am here because I can’t stop feeling for them all. This does include the KM and BS: the children they were in the past and the young men they *could* have grown up to be had they not gone down this path. I am not in any way condoning their horrible actions. There is no way to justify this violence.

I posted some time last week about how upset I was seeing how KM and BS’ parents were being picked apart on here. I stand by what I said then. The parents of the killers are victims here and nobody has the right to judge them.

One person replied to my post saying that when I was asking for empathy toward AS, I should have been focusing on the Deese, Fowler, and Dyck families. I chose not to engage with this person because I don’t feel that it was offered as a means of thoughtful discussion. If this poster felt that extending compassion and empathy to one person means that you are taking it away from another... well... he/she’s doing it wrong. Empathy grows empathy.

Mental illness is a horrible, invisible disability that can devastate entire families. It lies and distorts and is painful. I know that we all are tainted by our personal biases, and I tend to see most people as doing the best they can with the resources they have. Assuming mental illnesses were at play here, I only wish that these boys had found help long ago. So much pain and tragedy would have been avoided.

 

[sandbar]

I agree.

BS’s father might not agree though. He is stating that he tried to save his son over the years and was shut down, court ordered, denied access etc.

Yes, you are right. AS did try, in the way he knew how.