Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

[MistyWaters]

The claim was made that simply discussing the facts of the case in the media increases publicity and notoriety. That certain facts (although it is still unclear which ones) should not be discussed in the media at all because those facts are "dangerous."

What we do on true crime forums is discuss the facts of the case, often past the point where the general public has largely stopped paying attention. We also create a market for the media covering these cases, by reading and sharing articles, etc. Therefore if anyone is giving the media an impetus to keep covering the case, it is people like us. Sorry but that is just a fact.

I think you first brought up the topic of “discussion” in relation to the topic of notoriety and the RCMP’s expressed concern about copycat killings, so I’m not sure who’s claim it is that you’re referring to.

Notoriety/infamy of the perpetrators and reporting (or discussion) of the facts of a crime are not synonymous. However B&K are already yesterday’s news considering no new facts are being reported by the media...to not add notoriety to their names, assumably. And really, what more is there to be said given they’re not here to tell their own story in a courtroom.

 

[Satchie]

I was wondering if, in your post, Satchie , you were in a subtle way underlining the overwhelming preponderance of young males as being involved in this sort of crime. Since, ,it is reasonable to assume the same restrictions, or lack of restrictions apply to females as does to males, why is it that young females , who used to be eager to sign up for home and family and a lifetime of housewifely drudgery with very little return on the investment are not lining up for the weaponry with the same goal in mind? .. any clues?? .

I have no idea what you're getting at, perhaps you could explain more clearly what you're asking? Did you take offense at something I wrote?

 

[DarkSkink]

I was wondering if, in your post, Satchie , you were in a subtle way underlining the overwhelming preponderance of young males as being involved in this sort of crime. Since, ,it is reasonable to assume the same restrictions, or lack of restrictions apply to females as does to males, why is it that young females , who used to be eager to sign up for home and family and a lifetime of housewifely drudgery with very little return on the investment are not lining up for the weaponry with the same goal in mind? .. any clues?? .

And , were K and B not a little bit too elderly to be playing 'warsies' in the woods? . I can't think of any society were this would be acceptable, or seen as normal. Not at their age.

The very same "warsies in the woods" is used as team bonding and corporate outings in business and sports. There are entire industries like paintball, laser tag etc. set up for adults and kids alike to participate in. It is not an anomaly.

As for the difference in aggression between males and females, even the difference between testosterone levels are an obvious major factor. It's not all societal roles and a need for glory. That "need for glory" is also rooted in competing for mates and competing for social hierarchy. The biologicals play a major part.

 

[srper2]

more from the article about notoriety (dated Mar, 2019)....

BBM

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/new-zealand-mass-murder-no-notoriety-naming-killers-1.5063397
......”The Aurora theatre gunman told a psychiatrist he "felt he couldn't make [a] mark on the world with science, but could become famous by blowing up people."

Last Friday, a 17-minute video that showed part of the massacre in Christchurch, and appeared to be recorded with a camera on the shooter's helmet, was streamed on Facebook Live. That's precisely the kind of media-driven narcissism that Katherine Reed, an editor and associate professor at the Missouri School of Journalism who teaches a course on covering traumatic events, believes such killers are seeking. The myth-building can be enticing for would-be murderers.

"They're seeking to become more famous than the previous mass killer. To make their killings more sensational," she said.

That's why the activist group No Notoriety has sought to convince media outlets to resist profiling mass shooters. The organization aims to reduce the risk that information about killers will inspire other potential fame-seeking killers....”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/new-zealand-mass-murder-no-notoriety-naming-killers-1.5063397

I don't see what any of this has to do with BS and KM, they didn't try to post or stream their crimes and they didn't seek any type of publicity. The videos they left seemed to be for their families and they did not know if they would ever be found.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I think you first brought up the topic of “discussion” in relation to the topic of notoriety and the RCMP’s expressed concern about copycat killings, so I’m not sure who’s claim it is that you’re referring to.

Notoriety/infamy of the perpetrators and reporting (or discussion) of the facts of a crime are not synonymous.

I was responding to this article, which was posted by you:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/new-zealand-mass-murder-no-notoriety-naming-killers-1.5063397

This article seems to suggest that notoriety/infamy of the perpetrators and reporting/discussion of the facts of a crime ARE synonymous. It doesn't specify what constitutes "acceptable" facts to discuss, or what venues are acceptable to discuss them in. The purpose of this "No Notoriety" campaign is for these crimes, and especially the perpetrators of those crimes, to be discussed as little as possible.

Certainly, if one accepts the premises of this article, one must agree that there's at least some risk that discussing crimes such as Kam and Bryer's spree, or other mass shootings, in any venue -- be it in mainstream news media, true crime podcasts, here, Reddit, Facebook groups, etc. -- leads to publicity and notoriety of the perpetrators. That's what publicity and notoriety is by definition -- having people who don't know you, talk about you and things you have done.

Therefore, if one accepts the premises of this article, it seems to raise the question of whether it is ethical to publicly discuss these types of cases at all. And therefore, what the motive is for individuals to discuss it on venues such as this one.

However B&K are already yesterday’s news considering no new facts are being reported by the media...to not add notoriety to their names, assumably.

That's because nothing new has come out. When new things come out -- and I'm sure they will, at some point -- the news will discuss them.

But doesn't that prove my point? The MSM isn't even running stories on these guys currently, and yet here we all are, still discussing them, which according to the article you posted, increases the chance of inspiring copycat killers by giving them more lasting notoriety. Isn't that unethical on our part?

 

[srper2]

I was wondering if, in your post, Satchie , you were in a subtle way underlining the overwhelming preponderance of young males as being involved in this sort of crime. Since, ,it is reasonable to assume the same restrictions, or lack of restrictions apply to females as does to males, why is it that young females , who used to be eager to sign up for home and family and a lifetime of housewifely drudgery with very little return on the investment are not lining up for the weaponry with the same goal in mind? .. any clues?? .

And , were K and B not a little bit too elderly to be playing 'warsies' in the woods? . I can't think of any society were this would be acceptable, or seen as normal. Not at their age.

It must be well over 50 years or more since women were pushed into a "housewife" role. You apparently have no idea how popular "playing warsies in the woods (???)" is in Australia too. Paintball, laser tag etc., is extremely popular, although Airsoft guns are currently illegal in Australia. Airsoft is the next step up from playing online games, and is now extremely popular. It seems you are only familiar with little children playing with cap guns etc. from 40 plus years ago?
See this link re: Airsoft in Oz: Millionaire Looking to Start An Airsoft Battle Royale Island - Airsoft Sydney

 

[Trooper]

I have no idea what you're getting at, perhaps you could explain more clearly what you're asking? Did you take offense at something I wrote?

I don't have a lot of time to be taking offence!..and certainly not at your posts , they are a very persistent source of logic and reasoning , rather like an oasis in a desert, in some ways.. however, I was curious as to why , in a general way, young women are not out there cutting down random victims, considering their lives and futures, which in many ways, are more doomed than young males.

Also, the first, or what is generally considered the first incidence of a school shooting, a mass shooting by a teenager, was perpetrated by a young girl. ( * I don't like Mondays' ' Boomtown Rats, for the short version ) and it seems , she has not been copied by other young women. I find that an inexplicable anomaly, and I would be interested in your view.

 

[NJSleuth91]

although Airsoft guns are currently illegal in Australia.

SBM

Well that explains why 60 Minutes Australia took the "Bryer went out and killed people because you bought him an Airsoft gun" approach in their interview....

 

[Trooper]

The very same "warsies in the woods" is used as team bonding and corporate outings in business and sports. There are entire industries like paintball, laser tag etc. set up for adults and kids alike to participate in. It is not an anomaly.

As for the difference in aggression between males and females, even the difference between testosterone levels are an obvious major factor. It's not all societal roles and a need for glory. That "need for glory" is also rooted in competing for mates and competing for social hierarchy. The biologicals play a major part.

It is a reasonable assumption to make that , in the USA, for example, the first school mass shooting was by a female, lone shooter. I don't know how that correlates with your stated position there, but I see a discrepancy, quite a large one.

It could be logically said that all shootings, school shootings, mass teenage killers, were a copy cat of her, except, they are male.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't see what any of this has to do with BS and KM, they didn't try to post or stream their crimes and they didn't seek any type of publicity. The videos they left seemed to be for their families and they did not know if they would ever be found.

The discussion originated because the RCMP stated the possibility of other future copycat killings as a reason not to release more information.

The word “copycat” gives the impression of others exactly mimicking a crime, whereas the definition is not always quite that precise.

Why these two might’ve thought they deserved notoriety through their videos, we don’t know but they obviously failed in that wish.

 

[Satchie]

I don't see what any of this has to do with BS and KM, they didn't try to post or stream their crimes and they didn't seek any type of publicity. The videos they left seemed to be for their families and they did not know if they would ever be found.

RCMP say they will not release videos of northern B.C. murder suspects | Watch News Videos Online

 

[CinNC]

may I enquire as to what other countries you have resided in that underscores your conclusion? and for how long?? …

If your conclusions are based on MSN or your actual lived experience , that would be significant, I think... ..

As an aside, I found the USA to be almost Rumanianesque in it's capacity to lock people down in one frightful area without possibility of transfer, plus with a minimum wage of $7.00. . I have no idea, no idea at all how people manage to exist on that, considering the prices people have to pay, and of course, the ultimate imprisoning of a population , that with no access to health care without extreme financial penalties.

Never, ever have I seen more homeless people sleeping on the streets, than right across the USA, from California to Maine, it was incredible, and I include Nigeria in that calculation. I couldn't hardly believe it, and women, also. Women!

If, and it's a big if, there are 'more choices' available to Americans, although I can't , for the life of me see more, or even the very basic choices other nations incorporate then why is that choice overwhelmingly one of a murderous nature? . what are these 'choices ' that the USA has more of? .. Certainly the almost compulsory edict to carry guns has a huge part to play in those stats, but behind that, is the desire to kill .

The biggest cause of death in young pregnant women in the USA is murder. That is a statistic that denotes a very great lack of freedom for a certain section of the community. It also denotes a determination from another section of the USA community to perpetrate this crime.

In one very important sense, K and B were more free than any teenager in the USA, in that they were independently ( they were 18, hence their own medical covereage ) able to access any and all medical professionals at any time, absolutely privately and without parental supervision, and without any financial penalty, which was their unalienable right.

Particularly, since they were, by anyone's perspective , taxpayers themselves, they must have paid tax on the 5 weeks earnings they had at Walmart. I imagine they saw their payslips and it only increased their resentments that they fed persistently. 'what?? , I'm paying this much tax for what? . no way, I 'm not gonna work, then'.. a position of ignorance but one that is found among teenagers everywhere.

To add to your point(s) Trooper, the US has a lot of rural areas wherein "choices" simply aren't there due to the lack of people, lack of businesses that can be supported by said lack of people, lack of mass transit, lack of resources, lack of recreational activities, lack of large circles of close friends (due to lack of proximity) -- and a lack of pretty much everything.

I was born in NYC and lived 19 years in the rural upper Midwest and I can say for a certainty that young men in rural areas spend a LOT of time with their guns (hunting and target shooting); its almost a way of life. Granted, hunting is popular due to the large areas of wilderness with wildlife, and yes, there are population statistical differences to consider, but still - the guns are there and belong to teenagers.

Some areas in the US are so remote that posse comitatus is still alive and well. This was told to me personally by a state trooper in the northern Midwest.

Granted we have more major cities than some countries but there is a lot of space in between those cities.

 

[DarkSkink]

It is a reasonable assumption to make that , in the USA, for example, the first school mass shooting was by a female, lone shooter. I don't know how that correlates with your stated position there, but I see a discrepancy, quite a large one.

It could be logically said that all shootings, school shootings, mass teenage killers, were a copy cat of her, except, they are male.

Or, logically, it proves mass killings are not singly motivated or inspired by copying others.

 

[Satchie]

It is a reasonable assumption to make that , in the USA, for example, the first school mass shooting was by a female, lone shooter. I don't know how that correlates with your stated position there, but I see a discrepancy, quite a large one.

It could be logically said that all shootings, school shootings, mass teenage killers, were a copy cat of her, except, they are male.

I don't know why social/cultural forces operate the way they do. I can predict the weather in general terms of winter/summer, but I can't say whether it'll be a cool rainy summer, much less what conditions will be on July 1, 2020.

Maybe we can thank Kim Kardashian for distracting potentially susceptible young women away from mass shootings, and into copying her, instead.

 

[srper2]

The

The discussion originated because the RCMP stated the possibility of other future copycat killings as a reason not to release more information.

The word “copycat” gives the impression of others exactly mimicking a crime, whereas the definition is not always quite that precise.

Why these two might’ve thought they deserved notoriety through their videos, we don’t know but they obviously failed in that wish.

There is a difference between discussing lowering publicity about a crime to reduce possible copycats, and discussing killers who streamed and publicised their crimes on social media in the same context as the discussion about BS and KM's videos. There has been absolutely no indication that KMand BS ever thought they would gain "notoriety" through their videos, or that they thought anyone would find them within a given time. We cannot speculate about the content as we have not seen the videos or seen a transcript of their content. MOO.

 

[DarkSkink]

To add to your point(s) Trooper, the US has a lot of rural areas wherein "choices" simply aren't there due to the lack of people, lack of businesses that can be supported by said lack of people, lack of mass transit, lack of resources, lack of recreational activities, lack of large circles of close friends (due to lack of proximity) -- and a lack of pretty much everything.

I was born in NYC and lived 19 years in the rural upper Midwest and I can say for a certainty that young men in rural areas spend a LOT of time with their guns (hunting and target shooting); its almost a way of life. Granted, hunting is popular due to the large areas of wilderness with wildlife, and yes, there are population statistical differences to consider, but still - the guns are there and belong to teenagers.

Some areas in the US are so remote that posse comitatus is still alive and well. This was told to me personally by a state trooper in the northern Midwest.

Granted we have more major cities than some countries but there is a lot of space in between those cities.

Which was part of my point to begin with, before it was dissected out of context.

Canada, with a population of around 30 million people and with the same approximate geographical area as the United States, with less economic opportunity, more restrictive gun laws, and less access to guns means the United States is an easier country to commit a mass killing in if one so chooses.

 

[DarkSkink]

I don't know why social/cultural forces operate the way they do. I can predict the weather in general terms of winter/summer, but I can't say whether it'll be a cool rainy summer, much less what conditions will be on July 1, 2020.

Maybe we can thank Kim Kardashian for distracting potentially susceptible young women away from mass shootings, and into copying her, instead.

Um, biology.

 

[Trooper]

The discussion originated because the RCMP stated the possibility of other future copycat killings as a reason not to release more information.

The word “copycat” gives the impression of others exactly mimicking a crime, whereas the definition is not always quite that precise.

Why these two might’ve thought they deserved notoriety through their videos, we don’t know but they obviously failed in that wish.

Although the RCMP was right onto it, it can be argued that it was too late as not 36 hours after K and B and their murderous travelling, a bloke in NZ took it upon himself to hunt down a Campervan at a famous tourist spot in NZ, at night, attempt to break into the campervan, shot down, multiple times the male in the campervan, and just missed the female passenger, who ran , in the dark, down a dicey track for 6 klms to get help, in a land strange to her. Very brave young woman.

As an aside, that shooter, the NZ copycat, so to speak, has not been indentified publicly as he is regarded as mentally deficient, having had two non appearances at court his next scheduled appearance is Oct 29, where it will be decided if he is mentally capable of making a plea, or/and instructing his barrister in his defence. If he is adjudged not capable of those two tasks, he will be held indefinitely until that miracle occurs.

But still, his name will not , probably , be released, which makes the NZ police look like Easter Island Morai in comparison to the bubbly, transparent mouthy press-conference-giving RCMP.

 

[srper2]

Or, logically, it proves mass killings are not singly motivated or inspired by copying others.

I personally believe that one of the main causes of increasing school shootings in the US is the difficulty of surviving in a hopeless system and the easy availability of high powered weapons in the USA to practically anyone. The availability of guns seems insane there. I have even seen news reports where little children have accidentally killed instructors after being given a machine gun to fire and being unable to control it! Australia and New Zealand have banned some guns, unfortunately after mass shootings had already occurred. I don't know if there is a "cooling off" period for buying guns in Canada, but have wondered if KM had to wait a certain time to be able to purchase the gun, he maybe would have changed his mind and nobody would have died at that time. MOO.

 

[10ofRods]

Yes, well said. I agree with everything but the gun control.

That is a completely other debate.

I'm not arguing for or against gun control. I am simply staying that the patterns of crime in the Western world are similar from nation to nation, with access to guns certainly being a variable in upping the homicide rates.

That's all. You can go look it up for yourself, but it's a fact. USA has more guns per capita than Canada or UK or Australia, but the overall types of crimes are about the same. We have more spontaneous domestic (in household) shootings (including accidental shootings). Our murderers have the overall same patterns of motives (or lack of motives) or psychosis or whatever it is that creates aggregate statistics of murderers. But they are killing more people per capita. USA's coming down in terms of homicides per capita (although we plateaued for the past couple of years). Lots of reasons, but it would be hard to tease out whether stricter gun laws are the only variable (although a quick perusal of state by state homicide rates might give some theories).