Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

[NJSleuth91]

To add to your point(s) Trooper, the US has a lot of rural areas wherein "choices" simply aren't there due to the lack of people, lack of businesses that can be supported by said lack of people, lack of mass transit, lack of resources, lack of recreational activities, lack of large circles of close friends (due to lack of proximity) -- and a lack of pretty much everything.

Isn't Canada way more sparsely populated than the US? And isn't that paragraph more or less a description of Port Alberni, plus a massive drug problem and high crime rate? (based on what I've read about it anyway) While my definition of "remote area" is probably different from a lot of peoples', it does seem to be pretty much in the middle of a massive forest (probably a very aesthetically pleasing forest, but still) with hardly any other incorporated settlements around for dozens of miles in any direction.

I was born in NYC

Hey, me too! Born and raised in Queens

Maybe we can thank Kim Kardashian for distracting potentially susceptible young women away from mass shootings, and into copying her, instead.

LOL. Well she's getting a law degree now, so maybe the kids these days do have a future after all....

 

[DarkSkink]

Although the RCMP was right onto it, it can be argued that it was too late as not 36 hours after K and B and their murderous travelling, a bloke in NZ took it upon himself to hunt down a Campervan at a famous tourist spot in NZ, at night, attempt to break into the campervan, shot down, multiple times the male in the campervan, and just missed the female passenger, who ran , in the dark, down a dicey track for 6 klms to get help, in a land strange to her. Very brave young woman.

As an aside, that shooter, the NZ copycat, so to speak, has not been indentified publicly as he is regarded as mentally deficient, having had two non appearances at court his next scheduled appearance is Oct 29, where it will be decided if he is mentally capable of making a plea, or/and instructing his barrister in his defence. If he is adjudged not capable of those two tasks, he will be held indefinitely until that miracle occurs.

But still, his name will not , probably , be released, which makes the NZ police look like Easter Island Morai in comparison to the bubbly, transparent mouthy press-conference-giving RCMP.

Which demonstrates several issues with not naming the suspect.

Witnesses with pertinent information may not come forward because they don't know who it is. If they had interactions with this person, they won't know to report it.

If this person is let out in the future, people will not know who it is.

If there are lessons to learn from this person's past, no one will learn them.

If there are safety issues that could be prevented in the future by knowing more details, then they will be lost.

If the suspect is related to someone with power and influence and gets any special deals or privileges because of it, no one will know and they will get away with the corruption.

All in the name of hoping no one will copy it, and everyone can live in their bubble wrapped safe space not having to even think about what happens in real life.

 

[MistyWaters]

The

There is a difference between discussing lowering publicity about a crime to reduce possible copycats, and discussing killers who streamed and publicised their crimes on social media in the same context as the discussion about BS and KM's videos. There has been absolutely no indication that KMand BS ever thought they would gain "notoriety" through their videos, or that they thought anyone would find them within a given time. We cannot speculate about the content as we have not seen the videos or seen a transcript of their content. MOO.

I pasted an article listing that copycat killers are known to exist, if you’ve been following the discussion pertaining to this case and the RCMPs comments during the final PC.

Otherwise free to ignore my posts if you wish.

 

[Trooper]

Which demonstrates several issues with not naming the suspect.

Witnesses with pertinent information may not come forward because they don't know who it is. If they had interactions with this person, they won't know to report it.

If this person is let out in the future, people will not know who it is.

If there are lessons to learn from this person's past, no one will learn them.

If there are safety issues that could be prevented in the future by knowing more details, then they will be lost.

If the suspect is related to someone with power and influence and gets any special deals or privileges because of it, no one will know and they will get away with the corruption.

All in the name of hoping no one will copy it, and everyone can live in their bubble wrapped safe space not having to even think about what happens in real life.

Since his mental incapability renders him unable to defend himself, that which you propose is an intolerable revocation of a citizens rights, and a simplistic way of over riding them on the spurious notion, unproven and unsubstantiated , that some common good may eventually be wrung from such a position, .. far better legal and philosophical minds than yours, or mine have made that decision, after much cogitation and mediation, and a knee jerk , off the cuff retaliatory response reaction does nothing to knock the logic off the NZ laws down to dribbling sloganeering.

His rights, while not large, on the scale of things, are there to protect everyone's rights, including his victim /s. ( I include the person he didn't kill as a bona fide victim in every sense of the word ) .

The NZ police feel quite at ease with the info they have.

If he is released, his name is publicized. But he wont be.

There isn't much to learn from someone who cannot tell their own tale. That can be learned by other methods, and probably with more accuracy.

NZ police are fully au fait with similar shooting incidences, all of which as much as can be wrung out of in the learning sense have been learned. . This is not a first for NZ.

The last point you make is invalid, under the circumstances and are the consequence of insufficient enquiry into first causes.

 

[MistyWaters]

Which demonstrates several issues with not naming the suspect.

Witnesses with pertinent information may not come forward because they don't know who it is. If they had interactions with this person, they won't know to report it.

If this person is let out in the future, people will not know who it is.

If there are lessons to learn from this person's past, no one will learn them.

If there are safety issues that could be prevented in the future by knowing more details, then they will be lost.

If the suspect is related to someone with power and influence and gets any special deals or privileges because of it, no one will know and they will get away with the corruption.

All in the name of hoping no one will copy it, and everyone can live in their bubble wrapped safe space not having to even think about what happens in real life.

Schools have now become very focused on the topic of bullying. Parents who are involved in legal separations are required to undertake parenting courses in order to minimize the negative impact of relationship breakups on children. These are examples of known contributors gleaned by studies into prior tragedies.

But surely you don’t expect real life tragedies on a case-by-case basis ought to be crowd-sourced by the general public. That’s never going to happen and even if this case had gone to trial, only the matter of guilt or innocence would be examined, not “why”. Can you imagine the trauma caused to the family members of the perp, to involuntarily have every moment of their personal lives exposed to finger pointing from the general public as to what they unknowingly didn’t do right, what red flags they missed? Egad, that’s not a society I’d want to live in. It reminds me of 1984/Big Brother and Sunday’s entertainment spent watching public executions.

 

[srper2]

I'm not arguing for or against gun control. I am simply staying that the patterns of crime in the Western world are similar from nation to nation, with access to guns certainly being a variable in upping the homicide rates.

That's all. You can go look it up for yourself, but it's a fact. USA has more guns per capita than Canada or UK or Australia, but the overall types of crimes are about the same. We have more spontaneous domestic (in household) shootings (including accidental shootings). Our murderers have the overall same patterns of motives (or lack of motives) or psychosis or whatever it is that creates aggregate statistics of murderers. But they are killing more people per capita. USA's coming down in terms of homicides per capita (although we plateaued for the past couple of years). Lots of reasons, but it would be hard to tease out whether stricter gun laws are the only variable (although a quick perusal of state by state homicide rates might give some theories).

Australia does not have school shootings happening on a regular basis. In fact, the one school shooting I remember happened at a university I was attending, resulting in stricter security at all campuses.
Monash University shooting - Wikipedia
There was an awful kidnap/murder of a couple in a campervan, and numerous other vicious attacks and serial murders of tourists, but not many attacks on tourists similar to the attacks by KM and BS, thank goodness. Bradley John Murdoch - Wikipedia

 

[DarkSkink]

The only "dribbling sloganeering" is that of the state, reducing complex issues down to a "Trust us. We know what is good for you. Someone could become a copycat." talking point.

One need only point to the Robert Dziekański case, where the very same RCMP had their own version of events that they hoped the public would believe and just take their word for it.

 

[CinNC]

Isn't Canada way more sparsely populated than the US? And isn't that paragraph more or less a description of Port Alberni, plus a massive drug problem and high crime rate? (based on what I've read about it anyway) While my definition of "remote area" is probably different from a lot of peoples', it does seem to be pretty much in the middle of a massive forest (probably a very aesthetically pleasing forest, but still) with hardly any other incorporated settlements around for dozens of miles in any direction.



Hey, me too! Born and raised in Queens



LOL. Well she's getting a law degree now, so maybe the kids these days do have a future after all....

Canada is certainly less populated overall. I was just making a point that there are rural areas of the US where the culture is so different that even an American (from a major metropolitan area) would swear they were in another country.

PA and that whole area is very built up, from what I remember. I've been to the general Vancouver and Seattle area several times on business and it is the same as leaving NYC and heading upstate, the Poconos, or to the western part of NJ to "the country". Less crowded, but still squooshed together. (Squooshed is a technical term; I swear! lol)

I was born in Staten Island. Maternal side lived in Brooklyn and Queens for many decades! I lived in NJ, too, about 20 miles from Lincoln Tunnel. I used to work in the WTC before I left in 1997.

 

[Trooper]

If all this was preventable, as some are asserting, as even AS has asserted, then why hasn't it been ? this is an old , old story, nothing new, nothing original , even Canada has had previous mass shooting incidences, of a similar nature, that is, unprovoked, .. some were of a particular political nature, ( I refer to the University killing, the The École Polytechnique massacre at Montreal, where the chosen target was specific. Women, were the target, no surprise there, 9 shot and 6 killed. The perpetrator, Mark Lepine, conveniently stated that his fight was with 'feminism' and so separated the men to one side and the women to the other, so underscoring that which cannot be conflated into anything else than his so called 'war against feminism. ' ) So in that sense, the Polytechnique murders were clearly stated by the killer as to m.o.t.i.v.e.

Confining oneself to incidences in Canada, specifically, this episode of K and B had a lot of previous elements already performed by others, in other locales across Canada, inbuilt into their 'plan'.

They didn't think this entire production up all on their own. It could be claimed that their targets were surprising and unusual, ie, random travelling campers, which all three of their victims were, but no one knows if that was the thread that linked the victims in the killers minds. It may have been merely a matter of convenience . They themselves were a pair of random travelling campers, so they had one thing in common with their victims, like the school shooters, they were all students of the same organization they chose to destroy. But is that a matter of cause not being correlated? That is possible.

 

[srper2]

I pasted an article listing that copycat killers are known to exist, if you’ve been following the discussion pertaining to this case and the RCMPs comments during the final PC.

Otherwise free to ignore my posts if you wish.

I have seen the long-running discussion, that is why I commented, as it was getting very skewed. You are also free to ignore my posts if you don't agree with my opinions!

 

[DarkSkink]

Schools have now become very focused on the topic of bullying. Parents who are involved in legal separations are required to undertake parenting courses in order to minimize the negative impact of relationship breakups on children. These are examples of known contributors gleaned by studies into prior tragedies.

But surely you don’t expect real life tragedies on a case-by-case basis ought to be crowd-sourced by the general public. That’s never going to happen and even if this case had gone to trial, only the matter of guilt or innocence would be examined, not “why”. Can you imagine the trauma caused to the family members of the perp, to involuntarily have every moment of their personal lives exposed to finger pointing from the general public as to what they unknowingly didn’t do right, what red flags they missed? Egad, that’s not a society I’d want to live in. It reminds me of 1984/Big Brother and Sunday’s entertainment spent watching public executions.

No. But if the police have proof of motive and/or guilt, they should not have the discretionary power to withhold it because:

1) What they say is in the proof may not be the truth.

2) By knowing the pertinent details, society at large can discuss and adjust societal norms, laws, regulations, access to products etc. to actually prevent copycats.

It's like refusing to let people know how to use a stove, because someone burnt their hand on it and you don't want to have that happen again.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Canada is certainly less populated overall. I was just making a point that there are rural areas of the US where the culture is so different that even an American (from a major metropolitan area) would swear they were in another country.

Yes, that is definitely true. There's also entire regions of the country my husband and I can never travel to because it would be too risky due to my husband's ethnicity

PA and that whole area is very built up, from what I remember. I've been to the general Vancouver and Seattle area several times on business and it is the same as leaving NYC and heading upstate, the Poconos, or to the western part of NJ to "the country". Less crowded, but still squooshed together. (Squooshed is a technical term; I swear! lol)

Yeah the area itself seems to be a small city (and from what I've seen it also reminds me of the various somewhat desolate small cities in upstate NY/PA), but it differs in that there seems to be pretty much nothing around it but forest for dozens of miles in all directions. Whereas in NY/NJ/PA there are towns everywhere, of varying sizes. It also seems to be similar to those upstate NY/PA towns in terms of the drug and crime problems.

I was born in Staten Island. Maternal side lived in Brooklyn and Queens for many decades! I lived in NJ, too, about 20 miles from Lincoln Tunnel.

Yeah I grew up in the part of Queens without any subways, so, very similar to Staten Island

I used to work in the WTC before I left in 1997.

Oh, wow...good thing you left. My MIL almost got hired by some financial company in the WTC (I forgot which one) but refused because she was scared to be in an office that high up. They lost a lot of employees in 9/11 including the guy who interviewed her.

 

[MistyWaters]

Isn't Canada way more sparsely populated than the US? And isn't that paragraph more or less a description of Port Alberni, plus a massive drug problem and high crime rate? (based on what I've read about it anyway) While my definition of "remote area" is probably different from a lot of peoples', it does seem to be pretty much in the middle of a massive forest (probably a very aesthetically pleasing forest, but still) with hardly any other incorporated settlements around for dozens of miles in any direction.
..

Vancouver Island, where Port Alberni is located, is only 290 miles long and 62 miles wide, total population 775,000.
Vancouver Island - Wikipedia

It is by no means remote in comparison to the empty, vastness of northern BC or the northern route through to Northern Manitoba.

As Canada’s murder rate is only 1/3rd of the US in total, I don’t think geography or population can be deemed a reliable contributor.

 

[srper2]

It seems from news reports that there is a developing sense of hopelessness in many young Canadians due to a lack of engaging/meaningful work and affordable and accessible higher education. Constant reports of young people being drawn into gangs etc. Very much like the US. BS allegedly having tried to graduate high school twice and still not passing. KM graduating, but only finding work in a local store with BS, low wages etc. It seems that neither felt they had any sort of positive future to look forward to. Where some young people commit suicide, unfortunately, these two decided to make a game of ending their lives and killed innocent people, also intending to kill more before they died. In OZ, there seems to be more of a laid back attitude for young men who become disenfranchised, living on unemployment benefits, in a housing commission house (often better than they could have ever paid for themselves), doing "work for the dole" and taking money from the the benefits of their baby mothers (she is paid a large sum of money for each extra baby). It is a lifestyle choice here for many disenfranchised young men! The children of these people grow up on GTA V etc. See this link:
Housos - Wikipedia

 

[Zella]

Not entirely sure why Port Alberni is being discussed like some remote outpost dozens of miles from civilization when Google maps clearly reveals there are numerous other towns within 30 minutes of there.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Vancouver Island, where Port Alberni is located, is only 290 miles long and 62 miles wide, total population 775,000.

That's remote by my standards. New Jersey is half that size and has 9 million people. Plus most of the Vancouver Island population is in a few cities on the coast.

As Canada’s murder rate is only 1/3rd of the US in total, I don’t think geography or population can be deemed a reliable contributor.

Social and mental health issues endemic to certain types of areas, especially in conjunction with lack of economic opportunity, can be considered as a factor, as was being discussed.

 

[MistyWaters]

No. But if the police have proof of motive and/or guilt, they should not have the discretionary power to withhold it because:

1) What they say is in the proof may not be the truth.

2) By knowing the pertinent details, society at large can discuss and adjust societal norms, laws, regulations, access to products etc. to actually prevent copycats.

It's like refusing to let people know how to use a stove, because someone burnt their hand on it and you don't want to have that happen again.

The RCMP did not refuse to disclose the motive. They were unable to discover what it was because the two took the answer to the grave.

Society at large resolves nothing by discussion. Look no further than the US and it’s never-ending conflict regarding gun ownership. Many who followed this case would agree if guns were not legally made available to 19 year olds, these two wouldn’t have committed the homicides. Others would disagree.

 

[Trooper]

No. But if the police have proof of motive and/or guilt, they should not have the discretionary power to withhold it because:

1) What they say is in the proof may not be the truth.

2) By knowing the pertinent details, society at large can discuss and adjust societal norms, laws, regulations, access to products etc. to actually prevent copycats.

It's like refusing to let people know how to use a stove, because someone burnt their hand on it and you don't want to have that happen again.

surely, you don't mean that police, anywhere, in any nation , should have the discretionary power to release any information they want, at whim? There are very few countries where that is done, even China's police force doesn't have that kind of clout. Military police do, but even they , in China are subject to boundaries and protocol. ... but not civilian police. .. maybe , Bulgaria.. … to a certain extent, but they are subject to the Prosecutor General's 'advice' (this means direction, basically ) ..

I don't live in a country where the civilian police, and the military police even less so , have the power to direct the flow of information to the general public. The RCMP would have been under the direct control of the Solicitor General ( I can be corrected on the label, not the job, though ) as to what information is regarded as a public benefit and what isn't. And that direction would be subject to a panel of experts, right across to Ottawa and back.

Same where I live, and also, I think it s not much different in the USA in that respect. Anyone in the USA who imagines they are being told everything is living under a severe and absurd delusion.

 

[DarkSkink]

The RCMP did not refuse to disclose the motive. They were unable to discover what it was because the two took the answer to the grave.

Society at large resolves nothing by discussion. Look no further than the US and it’s never-ending conflict regarding gun ownership. Many who followed this case would agree if guns were not legally made available to 19 year olds, these two wouldn’t have committed the homicides. Others would disagree.

You ignored Point 1.

 

[MistyWaters]

You ignored Point 1.

What proof is there the RCMP was not truthful?