Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

[DarkSkink]

There is no evidence , no rumour, no report , nothing in any MSN or any other public forum that claims that Kam McLeod or his family ever saw the inside of a family court or ever came under it's jurisdiction at any time in Kam's life. No point claiming that, and attempting to call it obvious, when it clearly and positively is not, because there is no record for it that has seen the light of day. Just because one wants to have it so, doesn't make it so. It negates the argument that divorce is , without exception, bad. It just isn't so. If divorce is bad and that somehow explains Bryer, it doesn't explain Kam and trying to paint it as such just doesn't fly.

No one said divorce is always bad. Obviously, each individual case sky is different blue.

That is your argument, to which you are counter arguing.

The point is that regardless of the first world or entitled status you wish to assign to these two perpetrators, that whole kids starving in Africa routine has long been debunked.

The absence of a court record does not automatically mean that KM suffered absolutely zero childhood trauma.

In fact, his final days and actions hint that there was.

 

[MistyWaters]

Remember that sighting? Two guys dressed like the suspects, digging in the dump? They ran into the bush when people entered the area?

Police swarm the area and gunshots are heard?

Why wasn't there an explanation about the sighting?

There was an explanation - the sighting was unsubstantiated. You expect the police to provide an explanation to the general public why it was not G&K who were sighted rooting through the garbage dump at York Landing? I’m quite sure the public understands the reason why - the tip wasn’t accurate.

 

[katydid23]

Yes.

Now are any of those acts of violence because someone else did something similar and they are copying it, or did they resolve to kill people on their own and are simply copying what was a successful attempt and maybe trying to one-up it?

I am not sure we will ever know that, 100%.

But we DO know that some captured killers describe their icons and heroes, and they are often killers themselves. MANY of our school shooters said they got the idea from the Columbine killers.

Some of our spree killers got the idea from previous killers, and discussed it on reddit in the Inbcel threads. The Santa Barbara spree killer is one example. A spoiled entitled rich kid, whose father was a famous film director, who felt entitled and was angry that girls didn't find him attractive.

He decided to follow in the footsteps of previous mass shooters and he spoke about it on a streaming FB link just before he drove into UC Santa Barbara party areas, and began shooting random young women.

 

[katydid23]

..snip...
The absence of a court record does not automatically mean that KM suffered absolutely zero childhood trauma.

In fact, his final days and actions hint that there was.

What human being has ever suffered 'absolutely zero childhood drama?' Is that even possible? Or preferable?

 

[MistyWaters]

.

 

[katydid23]

In your examples, you don't actually know that the parents were involved or neglectful. Nor do you know what they did to the child growing up.

That poorly written hedge fund manager article is absolutely sopping with sarcastic labels based on the writers' rather obvious class bias and anger.

Were you aware he was diagnosed with schizophrenia? It's quite possible his family around him didn't do enough. That payment may have actually been the easy way out, rather than deal with the issues head on. Just pay him and keep him out of our hair. They may also have not been aware of certain triggers to be wary of, or the consequences of mentally ill persons being off their medication because they weren't educated properly.

My issue with the way you word some of your posts, is you seem to be casting blame upon parents, for any crimes their mentally ill offspring may commit.

If this schizophrenic killed people, it was his parent's fault because they 'didnt do enough?'

They were not 'dealing with issues head on?' How does a parent do that , exactly?

A grown man, who suffers from schizophrenia is not always easily dealt with, by parents or siblings, especially.

My brother was a paranoid schizophrenic. He had the onset of the disease when he was 20.

At one time we were very close. When he was in the throes of his manic phases, I was seen by him as the enemy.

My mother devoted her entire life, at the detriment to many other things in her life, to try and keep him on proper meds and to try and support him. She sacrificed much to do so. Her health, her marriage and closeness with her out of state grandchildren.

Even with all of that, with everything she did, dropping off groceries every week, helping him pay his bills monthly, talking him off the ledge when he was manic, he still had a few run ins and violent outbursts.

Blaming her would be very unfair. But it seems that , by some standards here, 'she didnt do enough.' Did her divorce upset him? Her refusal to buy him cigarettes?

I don't think it is fair to blame the parents for violent transgressions of their offspring, unless there was true child abuse. Not just every day life things like divorce or working long hours, etc. JMO

 

[katydid23]

This is fantastic stuff, so I don't want it lost in the shuffle.

How does one reconcile believing that crimes shouldn't be sensationalized and publicized, yet publicly send post after post discussing intricate details of crimes that could serve as inspiration?

Should crime forums also be shut down? (He asks, risking bans and timeouts.)

There is a big difference between us talking about school shooters, on this forum, and any of us putting a killers 'sexy' photo on the cover of Rolling Stone.

 

[srper2]

DBM

 

[DarkSkink]

There was an explanation - the sighting was unsubstantiated. You expect the police to provide an explanation to the general public why it was not G&K who were sighted rooting through the garbage dump at York Landing? I’m quite sure the public understands the reason why - the tip wasn’t accurate.

There was an explanation - the sighting was unsubstantiated. You expect the police to provide an explanation to the general public why it was not G&K who were sighted rooting through the garbage dump at York Landing? I’m quite sure the public understands the reason why - the tip wasn’t accurate.

That's quite a weird coincidence that two tall white guys, dressed similar to the suspects, are digging in a dump in a heavily Indigenous area at the same time the suspects are on the run in the area. What are the chances? They then run off into the bush. The police storm into the area, shots are fired, but no one is found in the area. The tip wasn't accurate? Was it just a couple of raccoons?

 

[katydid23]

Ok so again...then how does one reconcile that with being part of a true crime forum discussing these crimes in detail. By this logic, we're making Kam and Bryer more notorious by discussing their crimes, increasing the risk of copycat killers. And creating a market for these stories in the media, of course.

I disagree. We are not increasing their stature or allure by discussing the facts of the crime in a forum.

The way they would be made more notorious and 'famous' would be if their homemade videos were spread across the airwaves. And if the cover of the Rolling Stone had pix of them, as did other mags. And if their final videos were downloaded and went viral on the web, getting millions of hits.

We are doing none of that here.

 

[srper2]

That's why the person's history should be looked at thoroughly, and brutally honest participation from those who know the person should be encouraged.

There usually seem to be events in their past, especially in childhood and/or developmental periods, which influence the their decision to act out.

Being bullied or socially outcast growing up is a common history, as well as improperly treated or undiagnosed mental illness.

An interesting book called "Ghosts from the Nursery" looks at the development of violence due to a person's experiences from pre-birth http://scholar.google.com.au/schola...vRpPuObxPwbYw0VH2zcHuZCoA&nossl=1&oi=scholarr
This is also influenced by genetic predisposition and every interaction with the world and other people.

 

[DarkSkink]

My issue with the way you word some of your posts, is you seem to be casting blame upon parents, for any crimes their mentally ill offspring may commit.

If this schizophrenic killed people, it was his parent's fault because they 'didnt do enough?'

They were not 'dealing with issues head on?' How does a parent do that , exactly?

A grown man, who suffers from schizophrenia is not always easily dealt with, by parents or siblings, especially.

My brother was a paranoid schizophrenic. He had the onset of the disease when he was 20.

At one time we were very close. When he was in the throes of his manic phases, I was seen by him as the enemy.

My mother devoted her entire life, at the detriment to many other things in her life, to try and keep him on proper meds and to try and support him. She sacrificed much to do so. Her health, her marriage and closeness with her out of state grandchildren.

Even with all of that, with everything she did, dropping off groceries every week, helping him pay his bills monthly, talking him off the ledge when he was manic, he still had a few run ins and violent outbursts.

Blaming her would be very unfair. But it seems that , by some standards here, 'she didnt do enough.' Did her divorce upset him? Her refusal to buy him cigarettes?

I don't think it is fair to blame the parents for violent transgressions of their offspring, unless there was true child abuse. Not just every day life things like divorce or working long hours, etc. JMO

I'm not blaming anyone. Cause and effect is cause and effect. Culpability has more to do with negligence and intent.

I simply countered the narrative of the article you linked, that described the son for being some ungrateful, spoiled brat that killed his father because his allowance was reduced.

There was much more to the causes that led up to that effect, and typically, most acts of this sort have to do with the developmental years.

You cannot protect anyone from experiencing trauma. You can try to not be the cause of it yourself, and if someone like your child experiences trauma, you can try to negate the negative effects either preemptively or post incident.

If, for example, you don't get your child some counseling when they could use some, that can lead to lifelong damage and be a missed opportunity to prevent something like a mass killing later. That isn't to lay blame on the parent, but to identify where a possible red flag was missed.

 

[srper2]

No one said divorce is always bad. Obviously, each individual case sky is different blue.

That is your argument, to which you are counter arguing.

The point is that regardless of the first world or entitled status you wish to assign to these two perpetrators, that whole kids starving in Africa routine has long been debunked.

The absence of a court record does not automatically mean that KM suffered absolutely zero childhood trauma.

In fact, his final days and actions hint that there was.

Yes, I agree, obviously despite no reported history of difficulties, KM had some problems that led him to decide his life had no hope and no future and to decide he would go with his friend on a killing spree and then end his friends and his own life totally alone in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Trooper]

millions, if not billions of young people thruout the world probably need counselling at some stage, there isn't enough counsellors in the entire world to satisfy the need, and there are plenty of operative cultures for whom the word 'counseling' and the other phrase 'life long damage ' due to lack of counseling is simply an unknown concept, and likely to remain so due to their capacity to remedy matters in other ways. Counseling is a very new concept and not in any way could it be regarded as a panacea for all ills caused by negligent parents, or even helicopter parents, of which there are probably an equal number. ... of whatever degree.

Life just isn't a series of counseling, and a raft of counsellors hanging about waiting for a client to show up. It just isn't so that 'counseling' anyone is a cure.

In fact, for a psychopath its an early start on learning the language of counsellors and infiltrating that into the mirroring speech and action to give back a positive impression. If anyone should not be allowed within a bulls roar of any probably unaware counsellor it's your young psychopath.

 

[katydid23]

may I enquire as to what other countries you have resided in that underscores your conclusion? and for how long?? …

If your conclusions are based on MSN or your actual lived experience , that would be significant, I think... ..

As an aside, I found the USA to be almost Rumanianesque in it's capacity to lock people down in one frightful area without possibility of transfer, plus with a minimum wage of $7.00. . I have no idea, no idea at all how people manage to exist on that, considering the prices people have to pay, and of course, the ultimate imprisoning of a population , that with no access to health care without extreme financial penalties.

Never, ever have I seen more homeless people sleeping on the streets, than right across the USA, from California to Maine, it was incredible, and I include Nigeria in that calculation. I couldn't hardly believe it, and women, also. Women!

If, and it's a big if, there are 'more choices' available to Americans, although I can't , for the life of me see more, or even the very basic choices other nations incorporate then why is that choice overwhelmingly one of a murderous nature? . what are these 'choices ' that the USA has more of? .. Certainly the almost compulsory edict to carry guns has a huge part to play in those stats, but behind that, is the desire to kill .

The biggest cause of death in young pregnant women in the USA is murder. That is a statistic that denotes a very great lack of freedom for a certain section of the community. It also denotes a determination from another section of the USA community to perpetrate this crime.

In one very important sense, K and B were more free than any teenager in the USA, in that they were independently ( they were 18, hence their own medical covereage ) able to access any and all medical professionals at any time, absolutely privately and without parental supervision, and without any financial penalty, which was their unalienable right.

Particularly, since they were, by anyone's perspective , taxpayers themselves, they must have paid tax on the 5 weeks earnings they had at Walmart. I imagine they saw their payslips and it only increased their resentments that they fed persistently. 'what?? , I'm paying this much tax for what? . no way, I 'm not gonna work, then'.. a position of ignorance but one that is found among teenagers everywhere.

Most of the homeless in California have two main issues=== drugs/acohol. and/or mental health problems

People who do not have those issues can take advantage of the many state or federal or private programs, that take people in, give them shelter and train them for work. There are plenty of jobs available to those who are relatively sober and mentally competent. And there are countless available shelters and programs.

But these shelters do not allow people drunk or high, to enter the premises.

Those who choose to put up tents on downtown sidewalks do so because they can sleep there and drink all day. Our government tries to get people off the streets but our courts block them. They say it is the right of any citizen to lay down in any public place.

 

[Trooper]

Counselling doesn't cure psychopathy. Never has, never will.

 

[katydid23]

I'm not blaming anyone. Cause and effect is cause and effect. Culpability has more to do with negligence and intent.

I simply countered the narrative of the article you linked, that described the son for being some ungrateful, spoiled brat that killed his father because his allowance was reduced.

There was much more to the causes that led up to that effect, and typically, most acts of this sort have to do with the developmental years.

You cannot protect anyone from experiencing trauma. You can try to not be the cause of it yourself, and if someone like your child experiences trauma, you can try to negate the negative effects either preemptively or post incident.

If, for example, you don't get your child some counseling when they could use some, that can lead to lifelong damage and be a missed opportunity to prevent something like a mass killing later. That isn't to lay blame on the parent, but to identify where a possible red flag was missed.

OK< using my little brother as an example---when he FIRST began showing troublesome behavior, at age 20, dropping out of school, speaking in bizarre rants, being incorrigible----my parents sent him to a counselor. A certified, professional medically licensed psychiatrist. In the California Bay Area---a very educated, progressive area.

It was the worst decision ever. this so called doctor gave my brother a 6 month prescription for CYLERT, and diagnosed him with ADHD.

In reality, we would find out later, once he was hospitalised, after a major mental breakdown, because of the WRONG DRUGS he was prescribed---he was manic/depressive. And CYLERT was the worst possible drug he could have been given. He had a mental breakdown.

So when you casually say that a parent must get their child counseling, in order to avoid life long trauma----it is sometimes quite the opposite.

As for my own children, I never had to deal with them having mental health problems, but when they did need to discuss issues, I NEVER sent them any where near a counsellor who could prescribe medications. Lessons Learned.

 

[DarkSkink]

I disagree. We are not increasing their stature or allure by discussing the facts of the crime in a forum.

The way they would be made more notorious and 'famous' would be if their homemade videos were spread across the airwaves. And if the cover of the Rolling Stone had pix of them, as did other mags. And if their final videos were downloaded and went viral on the web, getting millions of hits.

We are doing none of that here.

Back to the original discussion then, do the RCMP seriously think the Rolling Stone is going to do a piece on B and K?

 

[NJSleuth91]

I disagree. We are not increasing their stature or allure by discussing the facts of the crime in a forum.

Well, that's your opinion. Some would disagree. The people behind the "No Notoriety" project that was mentioned would probably disagree.

But that's exactly my point...nobody can decide what the line is between what's ok to discuss and what isn't, what leads to notoriety and what doesn't. For example, some people even said the police should not have released Kam and Bryer's cause of death or any information of what was on the videos at all.

The Columbine forum on Reddit is still quite active 20 years later, discussing the facts of the case, much like we are doing here. A couple of years back someone posted on there about how they were about to commit a mass shooting and outdo Eric and Dylan. The mass shooting was averted. There was another forum discussing Columbine where a member actually did commit a mass shooting. The other members did not see it coming. A few of them left in the wake of that occurrence. Is it possible the continued discussion of Columbine on these forums inspired these guys, by continuing to circulate the information? If so, is it possible the same thing could happen here?

If you open the door to the possibility that any publicity is bad, you open the door to the possibility that all publicity is bad. And that, by necessity, forces us all to consider our own role in that publicity.

 

[DarkSkink]

OK< using my little brother as an example---when he FIRST began showing troublesome behavior, at age 20, dropping out of school, speaking in bizarre rants, being incorrigible----my parents sent him to a counselor. A certified, professional medically licensed psychiatrist. In the California Bay Area---a very educated, progressive area.

It was the worst decision ever. this so called doctor gave my brother a 6 month prescription for CYLERT, and diagnosed him with ADHD.

In reality, we would find out later, once he was hospitalised, after a major mental breakdown, because of the WRONG DRUGS he was prescribed---he was manic/depressive. And CYLERT was the worst possible drug he could have been given. He had a mental breakdown.

So when you casually say that a parent must get their child counseling, in order to avoid life long trauma----it is sometimes quite the opposite.

As for my own children, I never had to deal with them having mental health problems, but when they did need to discuss issues, I NEVER sent them any where near a counsellor who could prescribe medications. Lessons Learned.

I am the last person who would vouch for the 100% effectiveness of psychotherapy. It is not an exact science by any means.

The context of the discussion was in the event of a trauma, counseling, talking the event through to make sense of it in a child's view, can help.

As for counseling or discussing a traumatic event in a logical manner not curing psychopathy, if an ounce of self awareness or empathy was sparked, how would you know if that keeps the psychopath from acting out?

So much black and white, all or nothing thinking. Simply because it is currently in a diagnostic manual doesn't mean it is accurate, or fully evolved. In 100 years, the DSM will likely be scoffed at.