Deceased/Not Found Canada - Lyle, 78, & Marie McCann, 77, Alberta, 5 July 2010 #2 *T. Vader guilty*

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Good grief, if section 230 cannot be used anymore, why on earth wasn't it taken out of the Criminal Code years ago? I don't understand this.

Also, I may be interpreting it wrong, but section 230 reminds me of the felony murder rule some states in the US have. So, in the US you can be charged with felony murder if a homicide occurs during a robbery but Canada is saying that charge is unconstitutional?
 
Good grief, if section 230 cannot be used anymore, why on earth wasn't it taken out of the Criminal Code years ago? I don't understand this.

This puzzled me, too. I haven't personally researched this yet, but a plausible explanation was provided by a lawyer interviewed on CBC Radio's As It Happens last night (I was driving, so couldn't take notes). He explained that the apparent inconsistency is due to a jurisdictional issue. Only Parliament can revise the Criminal Code and remove these sections, such as 230 which legal experts refer to as "ghost sections" because they cannot be used in trials or legal proceedings. The Supreme Court can overrule certain sections and laws and make them inoperable, but they remain on the books, with no notes attached as to their applicability, until Parliament takes action.

Maybe this case will kickstart some needed revisions to the published Criminal Code.

Also, I may be interpreting it wrong, but section 230 reminds me of the felony murder rule some states in the US have. So, in the US you can be charged with felony murder if a homicide occurs during a robbery but Canada is saying that charge is unconstitutional?

Yes, that is the case, bearing in mind that specific laws differ from state to state because the laws regarding felonies such as robbery and murder are not federal laws, but state ones. You can see a history of the felony murder rule and its current applicability in various jurisdictions here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule
 

Convicted murderer Travis Vader seeks mistrial based on judge's alleged error

If new trial ordered, another judge should replace Justice Denny Thomas, Vader's lawyers say


The revised definition of murder states the killings must be intended to be murder, which the Crown was unable to prove in the Vader case, legal experts say.

Since Thomas has already found Vader guilty of second-degree murder, Beresh argues he should not be involved in any new trial.

"A re-hearing and re-determination of the applicant's charges, or any of the factual elements thereof, by the same decision-maker [Thomas] would constitute an abuse of process, would tarnish the integrity of the court, and would bring the administration of justice into disrepute," the application states.

Thomas will preside over the mistrial application, which Beresh has asked to be heard on Oct. 3.
 
From article dated 2 Oct 2016.

DT, a law professor at the University of Windsor, says Thomas has jurisdiction to reopen the trial because there was no jury. And he's allowed to change his mind.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/what-s-next-for-convicted-murderer-travis-vader-1.3788090

Looking forward to what today's 'do-over' will bring.

Still having trouble with the judge changing the location where TV encountered the McC's. It is not what the Crown presented. Can a jury do that? Don't they have to consider only what is put in front them at trial? A judge only trial has more leeway in the evidence presented? Idk.

'... came across Lyle and Marie McCann in their motorhome in a rural area west of Edmonton and shot them during a robbery in 2010. Their bodies have never been found'.
 
2 questions:
Why does the judge need so much time??
What was it about the old law that was struck down that made its application "unconstitutional"?
Any Canadian legal experts (or armchair lawyers) who can answer these questions?




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2 questions:
Why does the judge need so much time??
What was it about the old law that was struck down that made its application "unconstitutional"?
Any Canadian legal experts (or armchair lawyers) who can answer these questions?




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Was thinking today how 'chinzy' it is of the judge to continually take so much time on his decisions. The trial ended mid June yet the verdict was delivered mid September - at the judges leisure. A little on the 'queen of hearts' side imo. Not to mention grandstanding. Then he fell flat on his face. Now he needs another month to 'decide' whether a mistrial occurred or not.

Get on with it imo.

I'm hardly a legal expert but did read a number of times that in Canada, you cannot be charged with murder during the commission of another crime as murder requires intent. One must prove murder - not assume it.

In this article, Vader is compared to another case in Ontario in 2011 -

Tanovich points to the case of Lamar Griffith in Toronto. A judge convicted the man on firearms charges in 2011. But three months later, before sentencing, the judge changed the verdict to not guilty. The Ontario Court of Appeal ruled a judge can change a verdict under exceptional circumstances but that, in the Griffith case, he should have ordered a new trial.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/what-s-next-for-convicted-murderer-travis-vader-1.3788090

This article was originally linked in post #664.

So if the comparable case mentioned is some sort of precedent, then a new trial would be considered in order here - it was a mistake not to order a new trial in the comparable case. Two mistakes in one trial would be - well, rather career ending?
 
I assume the reason Court of Queen's Bench Justice Denny Thomas said in Edmonton that he will rule on a mistrial application from lawyers for convicted murderer Travis Vader on Oct. 31.is because of the deadlines he set for defence lawyers and the Crown prosecutor to make written submissions on the mistrial application.

Those legal briefs, which are to be submitted by October 12th, are for Justice Thomas's eyes only. Thomas said they don't have to be filed with the courts or made public until he makes a decision on the mistrial application.

Thomas also asked the Crown prosecutor to assemble a draft sentencing plan, including any evidence the Crown might want to call.

"I want to get some idea how long a sentencing hearing might take," Thomas said. "So I want everyone to put their minds to that."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...s-vader-mistrial-application-oct-31-1.3788773
 
From a CBC article today -

Court of Queen's Bench Justice Denny Thomas will hear arguments on a mistrial application today in the Travis Vader case.
...
The prosecutor also acknowledged the Thomas verdict was reached with a legal error, but suggested the way out was to use the same evidence to reach a manslaughter guilty verdict.
...
However, prosecutor Ashley Finlayson wrote: "The Crown submits … there is no reasonable suggestion that the court is biased."
...
So far, Thomas has not acknowledged any legal error. At the beginning of October he told the lawyers: "It's important that this matter get dealt with. It's just a question of how we're going to do it."
...
"I think it bodes ill for the judiciary if there is no mea culpa," Sankoff said. "There have been some people talking about judicial arrogance. I think you just own up to it. It was an error."



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/decision-in-travis-vader-case-could-come-today-1.3828502

Fwiw, I see arrogance and bias from the bench - no acknowledgement from the judge on his serious error in his verdict (the rest of the country is talking about it), excessive time between closing arguments and verdict, excessive time to hear legal arguments since the serious error regarding the verdict .... to name a few.

Imo, any conviction will only end up in an appeal - so either way, nothing to be accomplished now but paperwork generating more paperwork.
 
Court of Queen’s Bench Justice Denny Thomas has changed his original ruling of second-degree murder against Travis Vader and substituted two convictions of manslaughter in the deaths of Lyle and Marie McCann.

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crime/live-blog-travis-vader-mistrial-application

Good. Vader can sit in prison where he belongs while his lawyers appeal. He still faces the charges he received for doing meth, stealing a truck, and copper wire while he was out on bail during his double murder trial. :facepalm: I hope he never sees the light of day ever again.
 
Court of Queen’s Bench Justice Denny Thomas has changed his original ruling of second-degree murder against Travis Vader and substituted two convictions of manslaughter in the deaths of Lyle and Marie McCann.

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crime/live-blog-travis-vader-mistrial-application

Good. Vader can sit in prison where he belongs while his lawyers appeal. He still faces the charges he received for doing meth, stealing a truck, and copper wire while he was out on bail during his double murder trial. :facepalm: I hope he never sees the light of day ever again.

IMO, tv is such a hopeless recidivist, he's unlikely to ever spend much of his life out of jail.

I am personally glad to see a verdict that states: TV did it. I am sure the surviving McC family members would agree. It doesn't bring their parents back, it doesn't give them a chance to bury them (the will never direct them to the bodies) but it's something.

IMO




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And speaking of the bodies...
I wonder what his sentence is going to look like. The judge has now said "he did it". But the bodies have never been found, and the McC's loved ones have been denied the chance to bury them. Is it possible this could be taken into account at sentencing?
I can't imagine the sorrow of the McC family. Even with a measure of justice, they have no resolution on the bodies, and never will.
IMO


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And speaking of the bodies...
I wonder what his sentence is going to look like. The judge has now said "he did it". But the bodies have never been found, and the McC's loved ones have been denied the chance to bury them. Is it possible this could be taken into account at sentencing?
I can't imagine the sorrow of the McC family. Even with a measure of justice, they have no resolution on the bodies, and never will.
IMO


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If Vader killed the McCanns or left them to die of natural causes, and knows where their bodies are, wouldn’t his lawyer be willing to exchange this information for a lighter sentence?
 
If Vader killed the McCanns or left them to die of natural causes, and knows where their bodies are, wouldn’t his lawyer be willing to exchange this information for a lighter sentence?

My thoughts exactly. However, I doubt TV is ever going to help because that would mean admitting he did the deed. He has lied for too long, he won't admit it now. IMO


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My thoughts exactly. However, I doubt TV is ever going to help because that would mean admitting he did the deed. He has lied for too long, he won't admit it now. IMO


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On the contrary, if Vader is a hopeless recidivist, surely he would jump at a reduced sentence in exchange for the location of the 2 bodies he has been convicted of murdering.

Then again, he needs to know the location in order to take anyone up on such an offer. RB was not able to take the Crown up on this type of offer regarding EB in Ontario.
 
Knowing where the bodies are doesn’t necessarily mean Travis Vader captured and killed the McCanns. Didn’t Travis have a male accomplice, the guy who was a criminal, knew the area intimately and died recently? The pieces of this puzzle don’t fit together for me but because I haven’t investigated this case, I don’t have an opinion or much to add to our discussion.

I am always amazed when the remains of murder victims are found long after they died in extremely remote areas. In this case we are looking for the remains of two adults not just one so that increases the possibility that their remains might eventually be found?

If TV told the Judge where the McCann’s are, I don’t think it will change his sentence. He has to serve two life sentences for manslaughter so that means the Judge has to be willing to give him a double life sentence with the possibility of parole after twenty five years or something like that. Is that even possible?
 
Knowing where the bodies are doesn’t necessarily mean Travis Vader captured and killed the McCanns. Didn’t Travis have a male accomplice, the guy who was a criminal, knew the area intimately and died recently? The pieces of this puzzle don’t fit together for me but because I haven’t investigated this case, I don’t have an opinion or much to add to our discussion.

I am always amazed when the remains of murder victims are found long after they died in extremely remote areas. In this case we are looking for the remains of two adults not just one so that increases the possibility that their remains might eventually be found?

If TV told the Judge where the McCann’s are, I don’t think it will change his sentence. He has to serve two life sentences for manslaughter so that means the Judge has to be willing to give him a double life sentence with the possibility of parole after twenty five years or something like that. Is that even possible?

It's interesting imo how people see this case - not meaning to lean on this post alone - but, did TV commit this crime of not?

There are many, many posts that cite TV's past behavior as a reason to put him behind bars for years to come. Maybe that is warranted - but that is not what he is on trial for.

Cannot quote a single post where evidence against him in this crime is cited. Not one - but maybe someone else could find one. Even the quoted post goes both ways.

Imo, no one really knows the truth or what to think exactly - only what they are being told to believe. Not the form of justice I like to see in my country.
 
The hearing, which is expected to last a week, will resume Tuesday at 9:30 a.m., when Vader is expected to take the stand.

In Canada, any “culpable homicide” that doesn’t meet the definition of murder is considered manslaughter. Culpable homicide includes a person causing the death of another human by means of an unlawful act, by criminal negligence, by causing that person (through threats or fear of violence or deception) to do anything that causes their death or by willfully frightening that person.

A manslaughter conviction carries no minimum sentence and has a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. The Crown is seeking two life sentences, while the defense is asking for four to six years behind bars.

“I think a four to six-year sentence, with time off; he will be out on the street carrying on in a year, less than a year. I think it’s absurd,” McCann said.

In September following a lengthy trial, Thomas determined that Vader was a desperate drug addict who came across the couple in their RV and shot them during a robbery.

Court heard that Lyle McCann’s blood-stained ball cap was found with a bullet hole in the couple’s SUV. DNA that matched Vader’s was also on the hat and his fingerprint was on a can of beer in the vehicle.

A friend testified Vader was broke, yet showed up flush with cash and driving an SUV that matched the one owned by the McCann’s the day they disappeared.

The defense argued that the DNA evidence was sketchy, that witnesses had lied and that – with no bodies and no murder weapon – there was no real proof the McCann’s were dead.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3120991/travis-vader-sentence-murder-case/
 
It's interesting imo how people see this case - not meaning to lean on this post alone - but, did TV commit this crime of not?

There are many, many posts that cite TV's past behavior as a reason to put him behind bars for years to come. Maybe that is warranted - but that is not what he is on trial for.

Cannot quote a single post where evidence against him in this crime is cited. Not one - but maybe someone else could find one. Even the quoted post goes both ways.


Imo, no one really knows the truth or what to think exactly - only what they are being told to believe. Not the form of justice I like to see in my country.

I agree for the most part .. the 1 thing I can not get past is TV's DNA found on the beer can in the McCann's SUV.
 

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