CANADA Canada - Nicole Morin, 8, Toronto, 30 July 1985

[photographer4]

I agree very maddening. IMO after 50 years the culprit will not face the justice they deserve regardless if caught and prosecuted, so why not release more info and let the case be solved.

I am assuming if this evidence that she was seen at the pool was not included with the reenactment video that was published by LE decades after the abduction then it was not in fact a clue in this case. The video and all police released info have her taken before entering the pool area.

I don't know as I've not watched the re-enactment videos. But it does seem that the narrative they've pushed for years (if not decades) has been that she didn't make it to the pool area. We're not told how they may have verified this or why they may have come to believe that aside her friend waited for her and watched the elevator for a few mins before contacting mum. I wonder if that 15yr old witness who told the reporter that she knew Nicole and had seen and talked to her that day ever told police her information? Its possible she didn't.

If Nicole WAS at the playground that day, would she have been there just in her swimsuit running around? I'm not sure. Such a hard, and sad case! I feel like there may have been things missed at the time that could have helped to solve her case and that they were missed because police were confused, and maybe discounted somethings they shouldn't have or assumed people had their dates mixed up as to when they saw / spoke with her.

 

[photographer4]

Copied from @photographer4 with respect:

Another quote from the same article: "Though police earlier believed that Nicole did not arrive at the pool last Tuesday, they now say that evidence to the contrary has turned up.'She was at the pool in the early afternoon (rbbm).' Travis said. "We don't know who she was with - or if she was with anyone. The focus of the investigation in the building is to find out who she was last with" Travis said."

Why is it so difficult to be told the true facts? Was Nicole at the pool or not and more importantly, when?

I think its difficult because there were probably tons of kids at the pool and playground area on any given day that summer. It would be hard for anyone to be sure they'd seen a kid there at all on X day, let alone one they perhaps didn't know personally. I'm on the fence myself as to whether she made it to the pool / playground that day really and here is why:

Its late July, probably hot as heck. We have her NOT meeting her friend in the lobby - friend waited and watched the elevator for awhile before buzzing mum who was unconcerned. That friend leaves after awhile and we don't know where she went after. Did she return to her apt? Did she go find other friends to hang out with?

We have a little boy arriving at Nicole's unit around 3pm to ask where Nicole is. We're not told which friend so we can't verify this (but I hope police did!). He says she wasn't at the pool that day and no one had seen her. Mom then calls the parents of JM (lobby friend) and JM advises her parents that she hadn't seen Nicole all day (see news articles cited above in the thread).

Mum doesn't seem concerned still (why not??). And doesn't begin to look for her daughter until late afternoon / early evening.

But then we have the 15yr old who said she knew Nicole and spoke to her that day between 2:15-2:30pm in playground area. We're not told (did the reporter ask?) what she was wearing? What she was doing exactly? Carrying anything (a shopping bag?).

We have the Man who said he saw her that afternoon but he left the country and hadn't been tracked down - who did he tell this to exactly then and when?

The lifeguard said they had NOT seen her that day. I imagine a lifeguard who'd been working there awhile probably had a good idea of which kids were regulars. How many lifeguards were on duty that day? What was their schedule like? What were the pool hours? How many people were at the pool for them to supervise at any given time roughly?

What was Nicole's typical routine? When was she usually in for lunch or snacks? I get that back then, kids were often out until the streetlights went on and no one would have panicked much - different times. But surely she'd have had to pop in for lunch at some point - we didn't hear that she had snacks or drinks in her bi-way bag, did we? So what did her usual lunch routine / time look like that summer???

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

I don't know as I've not watched the re-enactment videos. But it does seem that the narrative they've pushed for years (if not decades) has been that she didn't make it to the pool area. We're not told how they may have verified this or why they may have come to believe that aside her friend waited for her and watched the elevator for a few mins before contacting mum. I wonder if that 15yr old witness who told the reporter that she knew Nicole and had seen and talked to her that day ever told police her information? Its possible she didn't.

If Nicole WAS at the playground that day, would she have been there just in her swimsuit running around? I'm not sure. Such a hard, and sad case! I feel like there may have been things missed at the time that could have helped to solve her case and that they were missed because police were confused, and maybe discounted somethings they shouldn't have or assumed people had their dates mixed up as to when they saw / spoke with her.

The day after Cameron March went missing and we talked about it at school the next day we talked about the monkey on his brown shirt, I made a coment that I knew a kid that had a brown shirt with a monkey on it, not that I saw him, next day 2 detectives were at my door asking questions about when I saw the kid with the monkey on the shirt at kilbride store. That is not what I told the other kids but that is what LE followed up on.

IMO Stories get extended upon so quickly as people are emotionally involved and want to help.

 

[photographer4]

Thinking of Nicole and her father today. I can’t imagine the heartache he’s lived with all these years. Even if he finally found closure it still wouldn’t give him back the lifetime he’s lost with his daughter.

 

[falkenberg3132]

Look at Joan Gaye Croft -- the real little girl has been lost under 77 years of - often deliberate -- myth making and embroidery. Ditto the Beaumont Children.

 

[falkenberg3132]

I was replying to Bobbi'a point.

 

[OwnedByALabrador]

I've just been reading this thread. What a tragic, haunting case.

These are just my thoughts after reading the info you've all shared:


1 - it's clear Nicole was allowed to wander freely around that very large apartment building. She no doubt had countless interactions with people that her mother had no idea about. This could include other residents, tradesmen, older teenagers living there, and visitors to residents.

Any one of these people could have developed an unhealthy interest in Nicole and then just been biding their time.


2 - the focus seems to have been on Nicole being snatched either on her way to the elevator OR while in the elevator. Just my humble view, but I believe she actually DID make it to the lobby and possibly the pool. I suspect that she and her friend just missed each other. Or maybe Nicole deliberately avoided her friend - is it possible she had planned to meet someone else....? One of the people she regularly interacted with in and around that building...?


3 - If she did either meet or just run into someone else that she 'knew' and trusted, they could presumably have offered to show her something interesting - a new pet dog, some jewellery (I recall she had her ears pierced or am I misremembering?') Then lured her into their car and taken off via one of the main roads (UK version of freeways I think).


4 - My reasoning for this is that I think snatching Nicole near or in the elevator would have been logistically just too risky. UNLESS as a few of you have suggested, it was someone who worked there and could bypass all the floors and take her straight into the basement - I could see that happening and to me, it's the only thing that makes sense *if* indeed she was snatched from inside that elevator.

5 - the mother's behaviour is bizarre, by any objective standards. Having had one child taken away by her ex, how was she NOT frantic when it was clear nobody had seen Nicole??? And did she really refer to her daughter as 'the child' as suggested in one article? If that's true then that is real distancing language and should have been a huge red flag to LE.

6 - I presume the lifeguard/guards were interviewed? They would have seen Nicole around a lot, and were strangers that would have seemed familiar to her and thus trustworthy...

 

[Snoop Sister]

I've just been reading this thread. What a tragic, haunting case.

These are just my thoughts after reading the info you've all shared:


1 - it's clear Nicole was allowed to wander freely around that very large apartment building. She no doubt had countless interactions with people that her mother had no idea about. This could include other residents, tradesmen, older teenagers living there, and visitors to residents.

Any one of these people could have developed an unhealthy interest in Nicole and then just been biding their time.


2 - the focus seems to have been on Nicole being snatched either on her way to the elevator OR while in the elevator. Just my humble view, but I believe she actually DID make it to the lobby and possibly the pool. I suspect that she and her friend just missed each other. Or maybe Nicole deliberately avoided her friend - is it possible she had planned to meet someone else....? One of the people she regularly interacted with in and around that building...?


3 - If she did either meet or just run into someone else that she 'knew' and trusted, they could presumably have offered to show her something interesting - a new pet dog, some jewellery (I recall she had her ears pierced or am I misremembering?') Then lured her into their car and taken off via one of the main roads (UK version of freeways I think).


4 - My reasoning for this is that I think snatching Nicole near or in the elevator would have been logistically just too risky. UNLESS as a few of you have suggested, it was someone who worked there and could bypass all the floors and take her straight into the basement - I could see that happening and to me, it's the only thing that makes sense *if* indeed she was snatched from inside that elevator.

5 - the mother's behaviour is bizarre, by any objective standards. Having had one child taken away by her ex, how was she NOT frantic when it was clear nobody had seen Nicole??? And did she really refer to her daughter as 'the child' as suggested in one article? If that's true then that is real distancing language and should have been a huge red flag to LE.

6 - I presume the lifeguard/guards were interviewed? They would have seen Nicole around a lot, and were strangers that would have seemed familiar to her and thus trustworthy...

Re #6. The lifeguard on duty that day stated he had not seen Nicole at the pool. This was discussed several times in posts wayyyy back. However, due to conflicting info…was she at the pool or not?

I still maintain Nicole’s mothers response and behaviour was extremely odd…

 

[falkenberg3132]

DYT she may have had her kid bumped off?

 

[OwnedByALabrador]

Re #6. The lifeguard on duty that day stated he had not seen Nicole at the pool. This was discussed several times in posts wayyyy bYack. However, due to conflicting info…was she at the pool or not?

I still maintain Nicole’s mothers response and behaviour was very odd even sus in my opinion.

Yes, I'm aware the lifeguard stated that - my query was whether he and any other lifeguards (maybe some were female, I don't know) were questioned more intensely. To reiterate: they would have been seen by Nicole no doubt as trustworthy despite effectively being strangers.

 

[Snoop Sister]

DYT she may have had her kid bumped off?

Not bumped off but perhaps covering up for an accident or some such thing…idk. I just don’t believe, Nicole made it to the playground or the pool that day. Jmo

 

[branmuffin]

I started rereading this thread from the start, understandably we will not know as I am responding to a 10 year old post but curious if any of these residents ran and owned a graphics type business in the GTA and or - this would open up the list, had a cottage / cabin / rural residence north of Toronto?

I have posted on this thread in past sharing that I took a PI course in Toronto and my teacher was a retired LE, he worked undercover operations. Much of his undercover, stealth investigating experience he shared with us using as examples throughout the class were with organized crime and tailing the mafia between Ontario and Quebec for years. He also shared his undercover work he did on the Nicole investigation. LE had a suspect and enough evidence to have police commissioner and a judge sign off on an undercover investigation that lasted for months. The suspect did have a residence in the building. He also had a cabin or cottage north of Toronto, (not Muskoka area and not Kawarthas) This detective got a job working for the suspect at a graphics type business, worked at becoming a friend and tried to get info from him. They got nothing concrete and funding was stopped so they had to cease undercover investigation. LE threw one last try to catch him up, the detective acted out a scenario that LE had approached him asking questions about his boss, how well did he know him, that he is the perp who took Nicole, the detective said he said no way and then the cops beat him up, they used makeup to make it appear he was beaten. The detective believes either the perpetrator knew he was undercover or he was just a cold and chilling man,his response to the detective was to not worry about it, they can’t do anything with out her body. The detective felt this was the most admission he would hear and it was not enough to arrest.

I am sure they keep/kept an eye on him forever more.

I had never wondered how an undercover detective working mostly Mafia investigations and this Abduction investigation came about. Could it be the perp was involved in organized crime and this detective was brought in as he already had infiltrated the Mafia and how he was trusted and able to get a job working for the perp?

Edited to add, LE think he took her to his cabin or cottage.

IMO LE think they know who did it and until remains are found they cannot share any further details on the case. It is now a waiting game, who finally clears a conscience and tells someone or remains are found before we would learn any more details.

Same for Marianne Schuett and Cameron March, 2 children gone without a trace north of Burlington. LE think they know who took Marianne but he committed suicide and without remains they will not release the information.

The West Mall address actually has two addresses. One is 625 The West Mall and One is 627 The West Mall. It is one long building with two separate entrances. They share all the same amenities like indoor and outdoor pools, a fitness centre, a gym a playground and underground parking. I think it used to be all rentals, now it's condominiums. Here's an image of the building. I don't know whether residents can access one side of the building to the other on the interior but I can see why someone would say they live in the same building because they do.

 

[Snoop Sister]

@dotr
Would you please repost the reenactment by Toronto police here from your post #590 Ie. shades of blue. I don’t know how to do it.