CANADA Canada - Nicole Morin, 8, Toronto, 30 July 1985

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I agree very maddening. IMO after 50 years the culprit will not face the justice they deserve regardless if caught and prosecuted, so why not release more info and let the case be solved.

I am assuming if this evidence that she was seen at the pool was not included with the reenactment video that was published by LE decades after the abduction then it was not in fact a clue in this case. The video and all police released info have her taken before entering the pool area.
I don't know as I've not watched the re-enactment videos. But it does seem that the narrative they've pushed for years (if not decades) has been that she didn't make it to the pool area. We're not told how they may have verified this or why they may have come to believe that aside her friend waited for her and watched the elevator for a few mins before contacting mum. I wonder if that 15yr old witness who told the reporter that she knew Nicole and had seen and talked to her that day ever told police her information? Its possible she didn't.

If Nicole WAS at the playground that day, would she have been there just in her swimsuit running around? I'm not sure. Such a hard, and sad case! I feel like there may have been things missed at the time that could have helped to solve her case and that they were missed because police were confused, and maybe discounted somethings they shouldn't have or assumed people had their dates mixed up as to when they saw / spoke with her. :(
 
Copied from @photographer4 with respect:

Another quote from the same article: "Though police earlier believed that Nicole did not arrive at the pool last Tuesday, they now say that evidence to the contrary has turned up.'She was at the pool in the early afternoon (rbbm).' Travis said. "We don't know who she was with - or if she was with anyone. The focus of the investigation in the building is to find out who she was last with" Travis said."

Why is it so difficult to be told the true facts? Was Nicole at the pool or not and more importantly, when?
I think its difficult because there were probably tons of kids at the pool and playground area on any given day that summer. It would be hard for anyone to be sure they'd seen a kid there at all on X day, let alone one they perhaps didn't know personally. I'm on the fence myself as to whether she made it to the pool / playground that day really and here is why:

Its late July, probably hot as heck. We have her NOT meeting her friend in the lobby - friend waited and watched the elevator for awhile before buzzing mum who was unconcerned. That friend leaves after awhile and we don't know where she went after. Did she return to her apt? Did she go find other friends to hang out with?

We have a little boy arriving at Nicole's unit around 3pm to ask where Nicole is. We're not told which friend so we can't verify this (but I hope police did!). He says she wasn't at the pool that day and no one had seen her. Mom then calls the parents of JM (lobby friend) and JM advises her parents that she hadn't seen Nicole all day (see news articles cited above in the thread).

Mum doesn't seem concerned still (why not??). And doesn't begin to look for her daughter until late afternoon / early evening.

But then we have the 15yr old who said she knew Nicole and spoke to her that day between 2:15-2:30pm in playground area. We're not told (did the reporter ask?) what she was wearing? What she was doing exactly? Carrying anything (a shopping bag?).

We have the Man who said he saw her that afternoon but he left the country and hadn't been tracked down - who did he tell this to exactly then and when?

The lifeguard said they had NOT seen her that day. I imagine a lifeguard who'd been working there awhile probably had a good idea of which kids were regulars. How many lifeguards were on duty that day? What was their schedule like? What were the pool hours? How many people were at the pool for them to supervise at any given time roughly?

What was Nicole's typical routine? When was she usually in for lunch or snacks? I get that back then, kids were often out until the streetlights went on and no one would have panicked much - different times. But surely she'd have had to pop in for lunch at some point - we didn't hear that she had snacks or drinks in her bi-way bag, did we? So what did her usual lunch routine / time look like that summer???
 
I don't know as I've not watched the re-enactment videos. But it does seem that the narrative they've pushed for years (if not decades) has been that she didn't make it to the pool area. We're not told how they may have verified this or why they may have come to believe that aside her friend waited for her and watched the elevator for a few mins before contacting mum. I wonder if that 15yr old witness who told the reporter that she knew Nicole and had seen and talked to her that day ever told police her information? Its possible she didn't.

If Nicole WAS at the playground that day, would she have been there just in her swimsuit running around? I'm not sure. Such a hard, and sad case! I feel like there may have been things missed at the time that could have helped to solve her case and that they were missed because police were confused, and maybe discounted somethings they shouldn't have or assumed people had their dates mixed up as to when they saw / spoke with her. :(
The day after Cameron March went missing and we talked about it at school the next day we talked about the monkey on his brown shirt, I made a coment that I knew a kid that had a brown shirt with a monkey on it, not that I saw him, next day 2 detectives were at my door asking questions about when I saw the kid with the monkey on the shirt at kilbride store. That is not what I told the other kids but that is what LE followed up on.

IMO Stories get extended upon so quickly as people are emotionally involved and want to help.
 
Look at Joan Gaye Croft -- the real little girl has been lost under 77 years of - often deliberate -- myth making and embroidery. Ditto the Beaumont Children.
 
I've just been reading this thread. What a tragic, haunting case.

These are just my thoughts after reading the info you've all shared:


1 - it's clear Nicole was allowed to wander freely around that very large apartment building. She no doubt had countless interactions with people that her mother had no idea about. This could include other residents, tradesmen, older teenagers living there, and visitors to residents.

Any one of these people could have developed an unhealthy interest in Nicole and then just been biding their time.


2 - the focus seems to have been on Nicole being snatched either on her way to the elevator OR while in the elevator. Just my humble view, but I believe she actually DID make it to the lobby and possibly the pool. I suspect that she and her friend just missed each other. Or maybe Nicole deliberately avoided her friend - is it possible she had planned to meet someone else....? One of the people she regularly interacted with in and around that building...?


3 - If she did either meet or just run into someone else that she 'knew' and trusted, they could presumably have offered to show her something interesting - a new pet dog, some jewellery (I recall she had her ears pierced or am I misremembering?') Then lured her into their car and taken off via one of the main roads (UK version of freeways I think).


4 - My reasoning for this is that I think snatching Nicole near or in the elevator would have been logistically just too risky. UNLESS as a few of you have suggested, it was someone who worked there and could bypass all the floors and take her straight into the basement - I could see that happening and to me, it's the only thing that makes sense *if* indeed she was snatched from inside that elevator.

5 - <modsnip: Not victim friendly>

6 - I presume the lifeguard/guards were interviewed? They would have seen Nicole around a lot, and were strangers that would have seemed familiar to her and thus trustworthy...
 
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I've just been reading this thread. What a tragic, haunting case.

These are just my thoughts after reading the info you've all shared:


1 - it's clear Nicole was allowed to wander freely around that very large apartment building. She no doubt had countless interactions with people that her mother had no idea about. This could include other residents, tradesmen, older teenagers living there, and visitors to residents.

Any one of these people could have developed an unhealthy interest in Nicole and then just been biding their time.


2 - the focus seems to have been on Nicole being snatched either on her way to the elevator OR while in the elevator. Just my humble view, but I believe she actually DID make it to the lobby and possibly the pool. I suspect that she and her friend just missed each other. Or maybe Nicole deliberately avoided her friend - is it possible she had planned to meet someone else....? One of the people she regularly interacted with in and around that building...?


3 - If she did either meet or just run into someone else that she 'knew' and trusted, they could presumably have offered to show her something interesting - a new pet dog, some jewellery (I recall she had her ears pierced or am I misremembering?') Then lured her into their car and taken off via one of the main roads (UK version of freeways I think).


4 - My reasoning for this is that I think snatching Nicole near or in the elevator would have been logistically just too risky. UNLESS as a few of you have suggested, it was someone who worked there and could bypass all the floors and take her straight into the basement - I could see that happening and to me, it's the only thing that makes sense *if* indeed she was snatched from inside that elevator.

5 - <modsnip: Not victim friendly>

6 - I presume the lifeguard/guards were interviewed? They would have seen Nicole around a lot, and were strangers that would have seemed familiar to her and thus trustworthy...
Re #6. The lifeguard on duty that day stated he had not seen Nicole at the pool. This was discussed several times in posts wayyyy back. However, due to conflicting info…was she at the pool or not?

<modsnip: Not victim friendly>
 
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Re #6. The lifeguard on duty that day stated he had not seen Nicole at the pool. This was discussed several times in posts wayyyy bYack. However, due to conflicting info…was she at the pool or not?

<modsnip: Not victim friendly>
Yes, I'm aware the lifeguard stated that - my query was whether he and any other lifeguards (maybe some were female, I don't know) were questioned more intensely. To reiterate: they would have been seen by Nicole no doubt as trustworthy despite effectively being strangers.
 
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I started rereading this thread from the start, understandably we will not know as I am responding to a 10 year old post but curious if any of these residents ran and owned a graphics type business in the GTA and or - this would open up the list, had a cottage / cabin / rural residence north of Toronto?

I have posted on this thread in past sharing that I took a PI course in Toronto and my teacher was a retired LE, he worked undercover operations. Much of his undercover, stealth investigating experience he shared with us using as examples throughout the class were with organized crime and tailing the mafia between Ontario and Quebec for years. He also shared his undercover work he did on the Nicole investigation. LE had a suspect and enough evidence to have police commissioner and a judge sign off on an undercover investigation that lasted for months. The suspect did have a residence in the building. He also had a cabin or cottage north of Toronto, (not Muskoka area and not Kawarthas) This detective got a job working for the suspect at a graphics type business, worked at becoming a friend and tried to get info from him. They got nothing concrete and funding was stopped so they had to cease undercover investigation. LE threw one last try to catch him up, the detective acted out a scenario that LE had approached him asking questions about his boss, how well did he know him, that he is the perp who took Nicole, the detective said he said no way and then the cops beat him up, they used makeup to make it appear he was beaten. The detective believes either the perpetrator knew he was undercover or he was just a cold and chilling man,his response to the detective was to not worry about it, they can’t do anything with out her body. The detective felt this was the most admission he would hear and it was not enough to arrest.

I am sure they keep/kept an eye on him forever more.

I had never wondered how an undercover detective working mostly Mafia investigations and this Abduction investigation came about. Could it be the perp was involved in organized crime and this detective was brought in as he already had infiltrated the Mafia and how he was trusted and able to get a job working for the perp?

Edited to add, LE think he took her to his cabin or cottage.

IMO LE think they know who did it and until remains are found they cannot share any further details on the case. It is now a waiting game, who finally clears a conscience and tells someone or remains are found before we would learn any more details.

Same for Marianne Schuett and Cameron March, 2 children gone without a trace north of Burlington. LE think they know who took Marianne but he committed suicide and without remains they will not release the information.
The West Mall address actually has two addresses. One is 625 The West Mall and One is 627 The West Mall. It is one long building with two separate entrances. They share all the same amenities like indoor and outdoor pools, a fitness centre, a gym a playground and underground parking. I think it used to be all rentals, now it's condominiums. Here's an image of the building. I don't know whether residents can access one side of the building to the other on the interior but I can see why someone would say they live in the same building because they do.
 

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24 Shades of Blue with Re-enactment from @dotr's post # 590 requested above:

2014 Re-enactment:

2014 Toronto Police Services Investigation Update Press Conference:

1995 Re-Enactment:
 
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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed as not victim friendly> ... Nicole had a relationship with her father. He took her to Ontario Place in the days before she vanished and Nicole was to have a dental apt the day she vanished.

I wonder how though - if mom was working and with her daycare kids all day and that’s why she couldn’t go look for Nicole sooner, what time was the apt with the dentist for? Who was meant to take her there??

So very weird.
 
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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed as not victim friendly> ... You’d think if Nicole was grabbed in the hallway or elevator someone would have probably found her plastic bi-way bag with her towel and things in it. No one did that we know of. I just imagine she would have dropped it in a struggle, no?
 
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A number of scenarios could explain what happened.

1 - someone may have intercepted Nicole before she got on to the elevator and told her 'the lifts are playing up' and then coaxed her into using the stairs. He could then have - once on the stairs - taken her out of the building by a back entrance, maybe to a car.

2 - there is a youtube video by a guy who like us, is greatly saddened but also intrigued by this case. He states that at least one elevator in the apartment block had a *back door* and he says perhaps a maintenance worker had an elevator key. That person could then have been in the elevator with Nicole, but could have sent it directly down to the basement, bypassing all other floors, and then taken her out of the elevator via the back door - so nobody would have seen them.

3 - the same youtuber as above also notes that there was a garbage chute close to the elevator on Nicole's floor. He wonders whether could she, for 'fun', have decided to slide down the chute rather than wait for the elevator? It's not unheard of for kids to do this. He refers to another case where an 8 year old boy did precisely this and then got stuck in the chute. Thankfully his screams were heard by tenants and they called the emergency services.


4 - Is it possible that Nicole was delayed getting into the elevator? Maybe she got chatting to a neighbour? By the time she reached the lobby her friend had gone so maybe someone saw Nicole alone there and used some ruse to get her out of the building?


One woman came forward years later and said she saw Nicole in a local park, talking to a man. The woman was 12 at the time Nicole vanished and she said the man was someone who had abused her, and that's why she'd been too nervous to come forward sooner.
 
Re #6. The lifeguard on duty that day stated he had not seen Nicole at the pool. This was discussed several times in posts wayyyy back. However, due to conflicting info…was she at the pool or not?

<modsnip>
Along with babysitting various kids in Nicole’s apartment complex, I also lifeguarded at my own Apartment pool as well as others. We all worked for a company that supplied lifeguards.

As a lifeguard we knew ALL the kids. The kids always liked to hang out with the Lifeguards because it was cool. I honestly believe that had Nicole been at the pool that day the lifeguards would have known.

I think we have to remember this was a very different time. As kids we ran rampant. We got dumped outside in the morning. Came in for lunch, hit the pool from noon to 6:00. Had dinner, back out to the pool at 7:00 and in when the streetlights came on. It was the norm for all of us.

Today our parents might get charged with neglect but not then. It was wonderful. We had so much fun.

Just wanted to add a little perspective.

MOO
 
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Along with babysitting various kids in Nicole’s apartment complex, I also lifeguarded at my own Apartment pool as well as others. We all worked for a company that supplied lifeguards.

As a lifeguard we knew ALL the kids. The kids always liked to hang out with the Lifeguards because it was cool. I honestly believe that had Nicole been at the pool that day the lifeguards would have known.

I think we have to remember this was a very different time. As kids we ran rampant. We got dumped outside in the morning. Came in for lunch, hit the pool from noon to 6:00. Had dinner, back out to the pool at 7:00 and in when the streetlights came on. It was the norm for all of us.

Today our parents might get charged with neglect but not then. It was wonderful. We had so much fun.

Just wanted to add a little perspective.

MOO
I agree! And knowing this, why didn’t Mom seem worried when Nicole didn’t arrive home for lunch or even a snack all day? If she had a dental apt, who was to take her and when?

<modsnip: Not victim friendly> I agree that if she’d been at the pool that day she’d have been noticed for sure by lifeguards.

My only question is: could an off duty lifeguard she was familiar with have grabbed her that day? What was the average age of the guards? Did they drive to and from work?
 
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I agree! And knowing this, why didn’t Mom seem worried when Nicole didn’t arrive home for lunch or even a snack all day? If she had a dental apt, who was to take her and when?

<modsnip: Not victim friendly> I agree that if she’d been at the pool that day she’d have been noticed for sure by lifeguards.

My only question is: could an off duty lifeguard she was familiar with have grabbed her that day? What was the average age of the guards? Did they drive to and from work?
The crew I hung out with were between 16-19 years old. Every now and then one of the owners had to fill in if we were short but that rarely happened. On average, I’d say 90% of the Guards were girls.

We walked to work or took the bus. We didn’t have vehicles.
 
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The crew I hung out with were between 16-19 years old. Every now and then one of the owners had to fill in if we were short but that rarely happened. On average, I’d say 90% of the Guards were girls.

We walked to work or took the bus. We didn’t have vehicles.
Was there any chatter among the staff about what nicole was like / her family? What were the prevailing thoughts as to what happened?
 
A number of scenarios could explain what happened.

1 - someone may have intercepted Nicole before she got on to the elevator and told her 'the lifts are playing up' and then coaxed her into using the stairs. He could then have - once on the stairs - taken her out of the building by a back entrance, maybe to a car.

2 - there is a youtube video by a guy who like us, is greatly saddened but also intrigued by this case. He states that at least one elevator in the apartment block had a *back door* and he says perhaps a maintenance worker had an elevator key. That person could then have been in the elevator with Nicole, but could have sent it directly down to the basement, bypassing all other floors, and then taken her out of the elevator via the back door - so nobody would have seen them.

3 - the same youtuber as above also notes that there was a garbage chute close to the elevator on Nicole's floor. He wonders whether could she, for 'fun', have decided to slide down the chute rather than wait for the elevator? It's not unheard of for kids to do this. He refers to another case where an 8 year old boy did precisely this and then got stuck in the chute. Thankfully his screams were heard by tenants and they called the emergency services.


4 - Is it possible that Nicole was delayed getting into the elevator? Maybe she got chatting to a neighbour? By the time she reached the lobby her friend had gone so maybe someone saw Nicole alone there and used some ruse to get her out of the building?


One woman came forward years later and said she saw Nicole in a local park, talking to a man. The woman was 12 at the time Nicole vanished and she said the man was someone who had abused her, and that's why she'd been too nervous to come forward sooner.
Almost all high rise apartments have elevators with double exit doors, front and back. They are usually used by residents when they move in or move out. They are also used for large item deliveries like fridges and stoves and by the trades working in the building. They are usually reserved these scenarios since there is no need to use them when the regular elevators stop in the basement where amenities like pools, exercise rooms, and resident lockers are, and the parking levels. If Nicole was abducted by someone who brought her out through the parking garage in their own vehicle no one would have seen her.

If the garbage chutes were anything like the ones I was familiar with (I lived in Toronto) they are just a large metal square drop; it's not like a slide. Like this one, although this illustration is a more modern rendition accommodating separation of garbage : Garbage Chute Systems - Managing Garbage in Large Buildings - Toronto Condo News

Anyone who decided to enter the chutes in Nicole's building would fall about 20 stories to their deaths. A lot of apartments and condos have permanently closed their garbage chutes. That option has been available to each building in Toronto since 2010. Many buildings never incorporated them into the design because there was no oversight as to what was being put down there. It became even more problematic when separating your garbage became a thing. Fires have been set in chutes. Bodies have been disposed of in garbage chutes but I'm not sure if that's ever occurred in Toronto or whether that angle was investigated by LE in NM's disappearance. I'm pretty certain, though, that standard operating procedure would be to ensure garbage didn't get sent to a landfill after NM's absence was noted and sifted through the garbage from that address (627 The West Mall) but hopefully from the alternate address (625 The West Mall) since they are one and the same building.

During that era cameras were rare in the hallways and elevators. Getting on an elevator on the penthouse floor means there were 19 opportunities for the elevator to stop at every floor. Which increases the odds that Nicole was abducted by someone in the building, spirited to an apartment or down to the parking garage and ultimately lost her life. It's usually estimated that when a young child is abducted, the child is dead within an hour. See link:Predatory Abduction Facts.

So by the time Nicole's mom got the police involved in her disappearance almost 7 hours had elapsed making it a good possibility Nicole was already dead and potentially disposed of. She could have been spirited out of the building before anyone was aware a child was missing by someone in the elevator with a big garbage bag, a suitcase or a cardboard box and no one would bat an eyelash. I am aware that all the people who lived in the building at the time of her disappearance were cleared as suspects be LE.

Another thing I'm not sure of is if the person who stated they saw Nicole at the playground remembered accurately. There are 3 swimming pools in that complex and as far as I can remember none of the lifeguards said whether they remembered her at the pool. And with more than one pool it's not certain which one she went to if in fact she did actually exit the building.

There's always the possibility that Nicole didn't get off at the ground floor but continued down to one of the lower levels, whether that was of her own volition or she was taken down there by an unknown person is the question.

Almost a year to the day, another young girl in Toronto was abducted and murdered. Her name was Alison Perrott and she was fooled into believing she was going to be filmed along with other young athletes at the U of T Varsity football stadium. The difference between the last minutes of Alison's life and Nicole's is that within that year, CCTV cameras were installed all over Toronto, on major streets like Yonge St, Bloor St, subway stations and even Nicole's building. Alison's movements after she left the subway station were tracked until she got to the stadium. Unlike Nicole's abductor, Alison's killer was finally arrested, tried and convicted for her murder and remains in prison.
 

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