Found Safe Canada - O’Driscoll-Zak sisters, 2 & 5, abduction by aunt & grandmother, Cochrane, 12 Mar 2021

[Dre]

I hope the kids are brought home ASAP! And that during or after their punishments, that mom, aunt and grandma are court ordered to do some serious therapy. moo

 

[iQuill]

Me again ... I wonder why the RCMP keep referring to this as a “possible abduction”. If Dad has custody and Grandma took the girls without keeping him informed ... sounds like abduction to me ... Moo

 

[ms_x_to_the_m]

Not sure if anyone likes reading judgements from cases. There is an interesting one for Feb 1/2021
Something to do, in case you have time
Decisions issued in 2021 | CanLII

 

[Mystrywrtr62]

Here is a quote from the judge in the custody case:
“Furthermore, what is clear from the evidence is that Colin is trying to have parenting time with the Children and his time is being interfered with to the extreme as earlier outlined. The parties both admit that the Children have been traumatized by recent events that occurred while Colin was attempting to access his parenting time. However, I find that Jacqueline has significantly contributed to this trauma. I would even say she ignited it, and now it is aflame.

To ensure the greatest possible protection of the Children's physical, psychological and emotional safety and considering their needs and circumstances, they need to be reunified with their father, andtheir mother needs to stop her obstructive, intrusive poisonous behaviour.”

 

[Alice Ramnit]

This is really such an unusual case. I think we have to be careful not to vilify the Mother (Jacqui) without knowing more. It is not unheard of in abusive situations that Narcissistic Fathers can appear to charm the courts while the mother who is trying to protect her children is called 'obstructive', 'hysterical' and blamed for 'parental alienation'. In fact for a simple separation agreement to go this far and even APPEAR before a Judge should raise eyebrows. I am not suggesting in any way that this is the situation in this case because we haven't heard a whisper of any abuse but it is strange that the mother, grandmother and Aunt seem to feel that there was a need to remove the children.

Good article on the topic

Why Divorces Involving Allegations of Abuse Still Confound Family Courts

 

[Mystrywrtr62]

Yes I agree - but I would note that the court (Madam Justice Price) relied on the court appointed professional (Dr. Wendy Froberg) so the caution goes both ways. Can’t assume that because the mother’s family went to this extreme means “they must have had a good reason” and that therefore father is narcissistic and abusive. Anger and hatred in these disputes is common.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

Yes I agree - but I would note that the court (Madam Justice Price) relied on the court appointed professional (Dr. Wendy Froberg) so the caution goes both ways. Can’t assume that because the mother’s family went to this extreme means “they must have had a good reason” and that therefore father is narcissistic and abusive. Anger and hatred in these disputes is common.

Anger IS common but about 80% of cases are settled out of court and of those, the ones that become protracted typically do involve abuse. Abusers use the courts to continue to control their partners.

 

[otto]

Here is a quote from the judge in the custody case:
“Furthermore, what is clear from the evidence is that Colin is trying to have parenting time with the Children and his time is being interfered with to the extreme as earlier outlined. The parties both admit that the Children have been traumatized by recent events that occurred while Colin was attempting to access his parenting time. However, I find that Jacqueline has significantly contributed to this trauma. I would even say she ignited it, and now it is aflame.

To ensure the greatest possible protection of the Children's physical, psychological and emotional safety and considering their needs and circumstances, they need to be reunified with their father, andtheir mother needs to stop her obstructive, intrusive poisonous behaviour.”

What a shame! The children are so young and yet they seems to be pawns in a conflict between their parents. I agree that the children would not be in the custodial care of their father without cause, but we should keep in mind that this is very likely a complex situation with perhaps an amicus curiae and psychological assessments of parents and children. Sadly, the assessment process can be influenced by many factors, including the financial stability of parents and the impression that the parents give while under observation of professionals.

If the mother deliberately interfered with the children's contact with their father, or made comments that would damage their relationship with their father, that is causing intentional harm to the children.

Since this sounds like a long, drawn out custody battle, the grandmother and sister very likely had a lot of time to put a Plan B in place - a plan where they could disappear. It's hard to believe that the mother is unaware of the plan. I suspect that RCMP are handling the situation very gently so as to not spook anyone, to keep the children safe, and to encourage the grandmother and sister to return the children voluntarily.

The best outcome is for the children to be returned, and for the parents to continue to build healthy relationships with their children. Over time, their anger will fade, life goes on, and the custody arrangements will be relaxed.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

This is really such an unusual case. I think we have to be careful not to vilify the Mother (Jacqui) without knowing more. It is not unheard of in abusive situations that Narcissistic Fathers can appear to charm the courts while the mother who is trying to protect her children is called 'obstructive', 'hysterical' and blamed for 'parental alienation'. In fact for a simple separation agreement to go this far and even APPEAR before a Judge should raise eyebrows. I am not suggesting in any way that this is the situation in this case because we haven't heard a whisper of any abuse but it is strange that the mother, grandmother and Aunt seem to feel that there was a need to remove the children.

Good article on the topic

Why Divorces Involving Allegations of Abuse Still Confound Family Courts

Absolutely reasonable to keep an open mind without having facts. My father is a textbook narcissist and he managed to convince a female therapist that both of his young children were lying about his behavior. I was 5 and will never forget it. He was calm and charming. My mother was a hysterical basket case because she knew how dangerous he was. Thankfully his charms didn’t have the same effect when a male judge heard us. Not saying that’s the case here, but that’s why I will keep an open mind. The judge’s words about the mother come across like a scorned lover for some reason. Just unprofessional using “poisonous” especially, unless there are some serious facts we don’t know about. Refusing to reschedule when the wife’s attorney couldn’t attend seems vindictive too. And what kind of good does it do to let a judge assess themself for a bias complaint?. Keeping my mind open for now. MOO...

 

[MistyWaters]

Anger IS common but about 80% of cases are settled out of court and of those, the ones that become protracted typically do involve abuse. Abusers use the courts to continue to attempt to control their partners.

Where has anything regarding abuse or domestic violence been alleged in this parental dispute?

 

[otto]

Anger IS common but about 80% of cases are settled out of court and of those, the ones that become protracted typically do involve abuse. Abusers use the courts to continue to control their partners.

True, but in reading this

2021 ABQB 80 (CanLII) | Zak v Zak | CanLII

... we can get some idea of which parent is preventing the other parent from contact with the children, as well as which parent is using tactics (such as changing legal council) to delay hearings and decisions.

 

[otto]

Yes I agree - but I would note that the court (Madam Justice Price) relied on the court appointed professional (Dr. Wendy Froberg) so the caution goes both ways. Can’t assume that because the mother’s family went to this extreme means “they must have had a good reason” and that therefore father is narcissistic and abusive. Anger and hatred in these disputes is common.

I'm surprised that there are no reviews of this psychologist given claims of 30 years experience. That seems very unusual, as it is nearly impossible to avoid at least one review in the 20 years that the internet has been available to share opinions.

 

[MistyWaters]

Absolutely reasonable to keep an open mind without having facts. My father is a textbook narcissist and he managed to convince a female therapist that both of his young children were lying about his behavior. I was 5 and will never forget it. He was calm and charming. My mother was a hysterical basket case because she knew how dangerous he was. Thankfully his charms didn’t have the same effect when a male judge heard us. Not saying that’s the case here, but that’s why I will keep an open mind. The judge’s words about the mother come across like a scorned lover for some reason. Just unprofessional using “poisonous” especially, unless there are some serious facts we don’t know about. Refusing to reschedule when the wife’s attorney couldn’t attend seems vindictive too. And what kind of good does it do to let a judge assess themself for a bias complaint?. Keeping my mind open for now. MOO...

The issue of rescheduling was mentioned in the Decision of Justice Price (linked in above posts) dated Jan 18th, because the mother wanted the judge removed. “The mother’s application to have me disqualified as case manager is dismissed.”

That’s not the hearing whereby the father was granted full custody, which reportedly occurred on the same day the children were allegedly abducted, on March 12th. However it does appear the mother refused to cooperate with a Court Ordered Reunification Plan. What’s contained within that March 12th Order we don’t know but assumably it contains information in support of the Judge’s decision.

ETA-
This appears to me to be an instance where the mother is determined to refuse the father any access to the children whatsoever and has also refused participation in the court ordered Family Reunification Plan. Abduction by her mother and sister is certainly not the solution.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

The issue of rescheduling was mentioned in the Decision of Justice Price (linked in above posts) dated Jan 18th, because the mother wanted the judge removed. “The mother’s application to have me disqualified as case manager is dismissed.”

That’s not the hearing whereby the father was granted full custody, which reportedly occurred on the same day the children were allegedly abducted, on March 12th. However it does appear the mother refused to cooperate with a Court Ordered Reunification Plan. What’s contained within that March 12th Order we don’t know but assumably it contains information in support of the Judge’s decision.

ETA-
This appears to me to be an instance where the mother is determined to refuse the father any access to the children whatsoever and has also refused participation in the court ordered Family Reunification Plan. Abduction by her mother and sister is certainly not the solution.

Abduction is not the answer; we do agree on that.

 

[otto]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... We don't know the big picture. It's possible that the mother felt that she was disadvantaged in the courts, and that she was perceived in ways that painted her in a negative light - succh that everything she said and did was interpreted in such a way that it was used against her. Regarding psychologists and custody, it is possible that the psychologist had a bias that was impossible to overcome. It does happen.

Although this is an old report (see quote below) from another province, it does highlight an existing bias. Hypothetically speaking, if the father was working as a professional, and the mother was somewhat isolated at home with two small children, a female psychologist in her 50s could perceive the father as charming, balanced, successful and highly suitable as a single parent, while viewing the mother as potentially immature and unstable regarding providing a suitable home for the children.

"When a woman flees an abusive relationship, we expect the justice system will protect her and her children.

​

But a new report finds in some British Columbian child custody cases allegations of spousal abuse are used to paint the mother as mentally ill or an “alienating” parent, and instead recommend visitation, or even custody, for the abusive parent."​

2012
Bias Against Abused Mothers in Child Custody Cases: Report | The Tyee

 

[MistyWaters]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

They may think they have good reason but is abducting the children a solution? Surely not.

Even dad’s in prison are granted visitation - the reality is courts believe access to both parents is the best for the children, regardless of what one parent thinks. If the mother believes she can be successful in erasing their father from their lives, unfortunately the outcome is often adult children who require a lifetime of counselling to cope with abandonment issues or the parental stifle that surrounded them.

As for girlfriends or boyfriends of either spouse, yes that often adds fuel to the fire involving sudden “competition” on the scene - often a fear the children will become attached to another parental-type figure. Reality is the more adult role-models a child has, the better off they are, assuming they’re healthy ones.

This family feud seems like something requiring Dr Phil intervention. Its very sad those two sweet beautiful children are stuck in the centre.

JMO

 

[otto]

Abduction is not the answer; we do agree on that.

Abduction is not the answer, but it is also not the first option that people make in custody disputes. This seems more like a desperate reaction based on a belief that the mother's rights were not valued.

 

[anonymom83]

I think the biggest unknown factor is why the mother and her family are going to such lengths to keep the children from him. I don’t get the sense this is just a hostile hatred toward each other. She must believe he is dangerous. Her family must believe the same. They are facing criminal prosecution for their actions and they would have been well aware of that going into this.

They may think they have good reason but is abducting the children a solution? Surely not.

Even dad’s in prison are granted visitation - the reality is courts believe access to both parents is the best for the children, regardless of what one parent thinks. If the mother believes she can be successful in erasing their father from their lives, unfortunately the outcome is often adult children who require a lifetime of counselling to cope with abandonment issues or the parental stifle that surrounded them.

As for girlfriends or boyfriends of either spouse, yes that often adds fuel to the fire involving sudden “competition” on the scene - often a fear the children will become attached to another parental-type figure. Reality is the more adult role-models a child has, the better off they are, assuming they’re healthy ones.

This family feud seems like something requiring Dr Phil intervention. Its very sad those two sweet beautiful children are stuck in the centre.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I think the biggest unknown factor is why the mother and her family are going to such lengths to keep the children from him. I don’t get the sense this is just a hostile hatred toward each other. She must believe he is dangerous. Her family must believe the same. They are facing criminal prosecution for their actions and they would have been well aware of that going into this.

Media reports indicate the couple were married for five years and during that time had two children together. I don’t understand the hostility either. With a supportive family, obviously including the ex’s sister and mother, five years is a long time for her to endure living with a person who she now believes might be dangerous.

 

[otto]

I think the biggest unknown factor is why the mother and her family are going to such lengths to keep the children from him. I don’t get the sense this is just a hostile hatred toward each other. She must believe he is dangerous. Her family must believe the same. They are facing criminal prosecution for their actions and they would have been well aware of that going into this.

I don't think there is a sense of danger to the children, but lean towards the possibility that the mother feels that she has been treated unfairly by the courts. It seems more like an act of desperation by someone who felt her voice was either unheard, or misunderstood.

Divorce and custody is a very stressful experience. The stress alone can cause people to malfunction. The reality is that finances and standard of living change, and time with children is cut in half to alternating special events, like birthdays and Christmas. Family structure, and relationships with family friends, falls apart. It's not easy to adjust to that new reality.

From reading the court document regarding bias, it's evident that there were problems regarding visitation just before Christmas 2020 (here). My impression is that it was really difficult for one parent to accept that Christmas was without the children, although New Year's Eve was probably with the children.

The grandmother and sister must believe that they are protecting the children from an acrimonious situation, so the courts might go easy on them - but they should return the children and appeal court decisions as soon as possible.