CANADA - shooter in RCMP vehicle & uniform, 22 killed (plus perp), Portapique, NS, 18 April 2020 #3

[tayaway]

If police had made a courtesy call advising the future killer it’s illegal to possess weapons without a gun licence and in case he had any on the premises would he please hand them over, in my opinion, would’ve been highly unlikely it would’ve changed this psycho into becoming a peaceful, law abiding citizen.

IMO anyone who buys weapons from the US is doing so knowing it’s highly illegal and they’re being bought with a specific purpose in mind. According to the search warrants the RCMP have determined the sources of the weapons used in the massacre but until further information is released, we still don’t know what was the date and if those were the same weapons referred to 10 years in the past.

Sorry if I came across a little Dudley Do-right. That wasn't my intention at all. The RCMP had options when it came to handling the complaints about a guy owning a variety of weapons and they chose to do nothing.

 

[deugirtni]

If police had made a courtesy call advising the future killer it’s illegal to possess weapons without a gun licence and in case he had any on the premises would he please hand them over, in my opinion, would’ve been highly unlikely it would’ve changed this psycho into becoming a peaceful, law abiding citizen.

IMO anyone who buys weapons from the US is doing so knowing it’s highly illegal and they’re being bought with a specific purpose in mind. According to the search warrants the RCMP have determined the sources of the weapons used in the massacre but until further information is released, we still don’t know what was the date and if those were the same weapons referred to 10 years in the past.

I'm not suggesting he was a previous law-abiding citizen who was unaware that the weapons he'd purchased in the US and in Canada, apparently without a permit, were illegal, or that it would necessarily have changed his behaviour. Just saying that it does seem unusual that in the instances of complaints about potential beating on his spouse and potential storage of illegal weapons in his house reportedly seemed to have been ignored by police, and if they had instead been at least followed up on by attending his residence and asking some questions, it would have at least made him aware that people were seeing, and reporting, and that police felt it important enough to pay a visit. In fact by police NOT doing so, imho it added to his view that police were incompetent.

If he had known, which we don't know for sure (if he was aware), that people had reported these things to police and they had NOT spoken to him or asked him anything about it, it may have also fueled his feeling of being above the law, untouchable - since in his own mind, he likely knew they wouldn't have been able to obtain a search warrant, or whatever. If instead he had the feeling that police may be 'onto' him, and looking at him/watching him, who knows? - Maybe it could have/would have changed something about the level of devastation he thought he might be able to get away with before getting killed himself in April 2020.

 

[Scoobydo2]

Police map of where bodies lay in Portapique (corrected since post above).

These are my notes corresponding to the numbers on the map:

1. Unknown (200 Portapique)
2. Peter and Joy Bond home
3. Frank Gulenchyn / Dawn Madsen home
4. Jolene Oliver / Aron Tuck / Emily Tuck home
5. Lisa McCully home
6. Jamie Blair / Greg Blair home
7. Unknown ( Orchard Beach Rd and Portapique Crescent)
8. John Zahl / Joanne Thomas home

I don't believe this map is accurate. 2, 3 and 8 are mixed up. My understanding is:
1. Unknown (200 Portapique)
2. John Zahl/Joanne Thomas home (They bought it from Brenda Forbes)
3. Peter and Joy Bond home
4. Jolene Oliver/Aaron Tuck/Emily Tuck home
5. Lisa McCully home
6. Jamie Blair/ Greg Blair home
7. Unknown (Orchard Beach Rd and Portapique Crescent)
8. Frank Gulenchyn/Dawn Madsen home

 

[Scoobydo2]

Police map of where bodies lay in Portapique (corrected since post above).

These are my notes corresponding to the numbers on the map:

1. Unknown (200 Portapique)
2. Peter and Joy Bond home
3. Frank Gulenchyn / Dawn Madsen home
4. Jolene Oliver / Aron Tuck / Emily Tuck home
5. Lisa McCully home
6. Jamie Blair / Greg Blair home
7. Unknown ( Orchard Beach Rd and Portapique Crescent)
8. John Zahl / Joanne Thomas home

I don't believe this map is accurate. 2, 3 and 8 are mixed up. My understanding is:
1. Unknown (200 Portapique)
2. John Zahl/Joanne Thomas home (They bought it from Brenda Forbes)
3. Peter and Joy Bond home
4. Jolene Oliver/Aaron Tuck/Emily Tuck home
5. Lisa McCully home
6. Jamie Blair/ Greg Blair home
7. Unknown (Orchard Beach Rd and Portapique Crescent)
8. Frank Gulenchyn/Dawn Madsen home

 

[deugirtni]

I'm not sure this was ever posted in the thread? An obit for Corrie Ellison:

Corrie Robert Ellison | Obituaries | The Chronicle Herald

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not suggesting he was a previous law-abiding citizen who was unaware that the weapons he'd purchased in the US and in Canada, apparently without a permit, were illegal, or that it would necessarily have changed his behaviour. Just saying that it does seem unusual that in the instances of complaints about potential beating on his spouse and potential storage of illegal weapons in his house reportedly seemed to have been ignored by police, and if they had instead been at least followed up on by attending his residence and asking some questions, it would have at least made him aware that people were seeing, and reporting, and that police felt it important enough to pay a visit. In fact by police NOT doing so, imho it added to his view that police were incompetent.

If he had known, which we don't know for sure (if he was aware), that people had reported these things to police and they had NOT spoken to him or asked him anything about it, it may have also fueled his feeling of being above the law, untouchable - since in his own mind, he likely knew they wouldn't have been able to obtain a search warrant, or whatever. If instead he had the feeling that police may be 'onto' him, and looking at him/watching him, who knows? - Maybe it could have/would have changed something about the level of devastation he thought he might be able to get away with before getting killed himself in April 2020.

In my life’s experience I’m unaware of any occasion where LE would act on a tip that involves criminality and only ask the person accused about it. Often neighbours call in a suspected drug house or even domestic violence and I’d be very surprised if police go to the door and inquire if that is true. For one thing that puts the tipster in danger, another is the assumption is all tips are true. It would also forewarn the person in advance of police knowledge which can be a disadvantage to police. In this case they claim they keep complaints on file for 2 years. But I don’t believe in Canada our police are allowed to use scare tactics based on totally unproven information and would we want them to? Anybody can call in a tip, I sure wouldn’t appreciate LE knocking at my door accusing me of something because whatever it was I’d be innocent!

If anything could’ve turned out differently in this case I think it would’ve involved somebody reaching out to the common-law spouse and protecting her as she may have suspected he was becoming increasingly dangerous, not only to her but to others as well if she knew of his cop hatred. Maybe somebody attempted to do that, we don’t know but there’s a huge gap in what was happening after Sept/Oct 2019 when he obtained the decals for the decommissioned police car.

ETA - I think the point I’m trying to make is it was the police car and uniform plus the arson and explosions which equally heightened the highly dangerous situation. Even if he’d broken into somebody’s house and stolen their licenced guns, this crime could’ve still unfolded in the same way. Something occurring or not from 10 years prior I don’t think had a huge bearing on what triggered his raging lunacy in 2020. JMO

 

[deugirtni]

In my life’s experience I’m unaware of any occasion where LE would act on a tip that involves criminality and only ask the person accused about it. Often neighbours call in a suspected drug house or even domestic violence and I’d be very surprised if police go to the door and inquire if that is true. For one thing that puts the tipster in danger, another is the assumption is all tips are true. It would also forewarn the person in advance of police knowledge which can be a disadvantage to police. In this case they claim they keep complaints on file for 2 years. But I don’t believe in Canada our police are allowed to use scare tactics based on totally unproven information and would we want them to? Anybody can call in a tip, I sure wouldn’t appreciate LE knocking at my door accusing me of something because whatever it was I’d be innocent!

If anything could’ve turned out differently in this case I think it would’ve involved somebody reaching out to the common-law spouse and protecting her as she may have suspected he was becoming increasingly dangerous, not only to her but to others as well if she knew of his cop hatred. Maybe somebody attempted to do that, we don’t know but there’s a huge gap in what was happening after Sept/Oct 2019 when he obtained the decals for the decommissioned police car.

Nobody said anything about the cops coming to the door and 'accusing'... just asking questions. ie we had a report (and they of course, would never name the reporter) of this and this, and we're here to ask if you have any guns in the house.. possibly try to educate that permits are required and whatever.. it is meaningless in itself, but just saying that GW would then have known that someone trusted enough to know he had guns in his house did indeed report it, and the police did indeed think it important enough to speak to him.. may have also led to him having to wonder from then on, if police were 'watching' him. etc.

 

[MistyWaters]

Nobody said anything about the cops coming to the door and 'accusing'... just asking questions. ie we had a report (and they of course, would never name the reporter) of this and this, and we're here to ask if you have any guns in the house.. possibly try to educate that permits are required and whatever.. it is meaningless in itself, but just saying that GW would then have known that someone trusted enough to know he had guns in his house did indeed report it, and the police did indeed think it important enough to speak to him.. may have also led to him having to wonder from then on, if police were 'watching' him. etc.

By many of the reports in the media, his personality appears to have leaned toward aggressive and confrontational.

‘All these sweet, innocent people’: As anguish builds over Nova Scotia massacre, glimpses of a killer emerge
“According to an article published in Frank Magazine, a news, satire and gossip publication, police officers parked an unmarked vehicle in the lot outside Wortman’s Dartmouth denture clinic one day and went somewhere else. The parking lot was reserved for clients.

According to the February article, which included several pictures, Wortman ran a chain across the entrance to the parking lot — essentially preventing any vehicles from coming or going.

When the officers returned to their vehicle and identified themselves as police, Wortman refused to let them leave. They called in other officers who arrived with bolt cutters, and Wortman relented and unlocked the chains, the article said....”

 

[deugirtni]

By many of the reports in the media, his personality appears to have leaned toward aggressive and confrontational.

‘All these sweet, innocent people’: As anguish builds over Nova Scotia massacre, glimpses of a killer emerge
“According to an article published in Frank Magazine, a news, satire and gossip publication, police officers parked an unmarked vehicle in the lot outside Wortman’s Dartmouth denture clinic one day and went somewhere else. The parking lot was reserved for clients.

According to the February article, which included several pictures, Wortman ran a chain across the entrance to the parking lot — essentially preventing any vehicles from coming or going.

When the officers returned to their vehicle and identified themselves as police, Wortman refused to let them leave. They called in other officers who arrived with bolt cutters, and Wortman relented and unlocked the chains, the article said....”

Yes, I read that article. He asked for $20 bucks to let them go, but the cops refused to give it to him, so they called for backup and boltcutters. Someone higher up also showed up and all it took was an apology and a promise.. and he let the cruiser out. Seems to me like he had standards in his head which he expected cops to meet, and when/if they failed to meet them, he did whatever he felt was within his right on dealing with it?

We don't know the story as to whatever happened to his apparent highschool goal of becoming an RCMP? Imagine if he was declined.. imagine if it was because of some kind of psychological testing determined he may not be a great 'fit'? And then imagine x number of things that may have occurred over his lifetime which showed him that cops are just humans and maybe aren't all meeting that higher bar? Would really love for this stuff to all come out at some point, as to what the story was in regard to his RCMP aspirations and why he reportedly 'hated cops' or whatever. jmo.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, I read that article. He asked for $20 bucks to let them go, but the cops refused to give it to him, so they called for backup and boltcutters. Someone higher up also showed up and all it took was an apology and a promise.. and he let the cruiser out. Seems to me like he had standards in his head which he expected cops to meet, and when/if they failed to meet them, he did whatever he felt was within his right on dealing with it?

We don't know the story as to whatever happened to his apparent highschool goal of becoming an RCMP? Imagine if he was declined.. imagine if it was because of some kind of psychological testing determined he may not be a great 'fit'? And then imagine x number of things that may have occurred over his lifetime which showed him that cops are just humans and maybe aren't all meeting that higher bar? Would really love for this stuff to all come out at some point, as to what the story was in regard to his RCMP aspirations and why he reportedly 'hated cops' or whatever. jmo.

If he’d wanted to become a police officer 30 or so years ago, thank heavens he failed is what I’m thinking.

 

[tayaway]

If he’d wanted to become a police officer 30 or so years ago, thank heavens he failed is what I’m thinking.

A rejected RCMP application might be a grudge he carried all those years. He'd have been a real danger to his coworkers and citizens at large, if he did get in.

 

[newguy123]

It will always be speculation as to whether a little more police presence would have stopped all this. I understand what people mean, but also wonder if a "friendly visit" would have made him take more precautions? I googled a few things such as using hearsay to obtain a search warrant....and it is not likely. The penalties for possession were increased in 2016, so back in 2011 I would imagine they were even less severe. That was years ago so if he weathered that storm, the chip on his shoulder would have been larger, but he might have been more sly about his own business. When you seek illegal weapons it doesn't matter if you have a record......just cash.
It seems to me he was like the kid standing in front of the big window with a brick in his hand. Until that brick is thrown, there is no crime.
If the incident reports are purged after two years, then who made this a policy? Is it purely a police decision or are politicans involved? Same with gun laws.....police enforce what others enacted into law. Same with search warrants. If we wish to point fingers at the police, (poor choice of words, sorry) but then maybe politicians must be held accountable too. I go back and forth on the warrant issue. I think "what if...." on one hand, but then realise as a private citizen, I want that threshold set high to protect me from rumour and hearsay. Getting a search warrant on a citizen should not be easy.
To all who read the above, I know it is a sensitive topic and I hope my words strike the balance intended.

 

[deugirtni]

If he’d wanted to become a police officer 30 or so years ago, thank heavens he failed is what I’m thinking.

Yes, if it ever happened that way, I'm thinking those psych tests are done for a good reason. That being said, I know nothing about whether or not potential candidates are given a battery of such psych testing, but it would sure be a good idea. He would've likely ended up like the officers over here in Ontario, where one shot another.. it seems after a long period of the one guy being a bully-type. In any case, if such testing did occur and he was rejected, it's likely that GW never really understood why.

 

[MistyWaters]

This may’ve already been c/p here before although I hadn’t noticed. It’s truly disgusting, too bad he wasn’t charged and convicted with attempted murder instead of assault.

Nova Scotia gunman charged with assaulting a 15-year-old boy in 2001
“Matthew said he was just 15 years old when an allegedly drunk Gabriel Wortman assaulted him outside a denture clinic in Dartmouth, N.S., almost 20 years ago.

It was the fall of 2001 when Matthew said he was waiting to catch a ride home at a bus stop in front of 193 Portland St., the same address as Wortman’s Atlantic Denture Clinic.

That’s when the denturist came outside screaming that the teenager was too close to his business.

“He came out, I guess, in a half-drunken rage and ended up punching me as many times in the head as he could,” said Matthew, who is now 34 and works in sales in Dartmouth. Global News has chosen not to reveal Matthew’s full name as he was a minor at the time of the assault.

“Then he had a friend who came over from around the corner and hit me with a crowbar,” Matthew said. “Then the two men stomped on my head and all over my body.”

The court documents related to Wortman’s arrest do not mention a second person. Global News called and emailed Halifax Regional Police for comment but has not yet received a response.

Matthew said he tried to defend himself and was thrown into a newspaper box as the assault ended and police officers arrived.

The denturist was charged with assault in October 2001, according to court documents.

Wortman, who was 33 at the time of the arrest, ultimately pleaded guilty in January 2002 and was given a conditional discharge and nine months’ probation. He was also ordered to stay away from the victim, according to the documents....”

 

[tayaway]

This may’ve already been c/p here before although I hadn’t noticed. It’s truly disgusting, too bad he wasn’t charged and convicted with attempted murder instead of assault.

Nova Scotia gunman charged with assaulting a 15-year-old boy in 2001
“Matthew said he was just 15 years old when an allegedly drunk Gabriel Wortman assaulted him outside a denture clinic in Dartmouth, N.S., almost 20 years ago.

It was the fall of 2001 when Matthew said he was waiting to catch a ride home at a bus stop in front of 193 Portland St., the same address as Wortman’s Atlantic Denture Clinic.

That’s when the denturist came outside screaming that the teenager was too close to his business.

“He came out, I guess, in a half-drunken rage and ended up punching me as many times in the head as he could,” said Matthew, who is now 34 and works in sales in Dartmouth. Global News has chosen not to reveal Matthew’s full name as he was a minor at the time of the assault.

“Then he had a friend who came over from around the corner and hit me with a crowbar,” Matthew said. “Then the two men stomped on my head and all over my body.”

The court documents related to Wortman’s arrest do not mention a second person. Global News called and emailed Halifax Regional Police for comment but has not yet received a response.

Matthew said he tried to defend himself and was thrown into a newspaper box as the assault ended and police officers arrived.

The denturist was charged with assault in October 2001, according to court documents.

Wortman, who was 33 at the time of the arrest, ultimately pleaded guilty in January 2002 and was given a conditional discharge and nine months’ probation. He was also ordered to stay away from the victim, according to the documents....”

Yes, it's been covered, but how can anybody keep track of all these things? It's too much.

In this CBC article about the assault, conditions of his 9 month probation included:

"...and not having "any firearm, cross-bow, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, prohibited device, any kind of ammunition or explosive substance, or all such things.""

Prior complaints to authorities about first hand accounts witnessing the guy owning restricted firearms, pleading guilty to an unprovoked violent assault, calls to authorities about domestic violence... If only there were some way to keep records of these incidents, you know, so he was on the police's radar.

 

[newguy123]

There are certainly several incidents of note in this man's history. After the Forbes' moved in 2014, were there any reported similiar violent incidents? He had financial issues with people, a speeding ticket, the parking lot chain incident, and appeared to be an A-hole type neighbour, but to stay on the "radar", how "current" must one be? If police had domestic violence reports of a more current vintage, I would think those would be the ones being watched.

 

[tayaway]

There are certainly several incidents of note in this man's history. After the Forbes' moved in 2014, were there any reported similiar violent incidents? He had financial issues with people, a speeding ticket, the parking lot chain incident, and appeared to be an A-hole type neighbour, but to stay on the "radar", how "current" must one be? If police had domestic violence reports of a more current vintage, I would think those would be the ones being watched.

If somebody out there had the time, they could put together a timeline of all the complaints, the assault, parking lot, etc...

 

[Scoobydo2]

'Put yourselves in our shoes': Daughter of Nova Scotia shooting victim calls for public inquiry

 

[MistyWaters]

There are certainly several incidents of note in this man's history. After the Forbes' moved in 2014, were there any reported similiar violent incidents? He had financial issues with people, a speeding ticket, the parking lot chain incident, and appeared to be an A-hole type neighbour, but to stay on the "radar", how "current" must one be? If police had domestic violence reports of a more current vintage, I would think those would be the ones being watched.

As well he operated a longterm, seemingly lucrative, reputable denturist business involving interaction with other people with no indication he was off-the-wall crazy. I don’t think there was enough indications this was a person who required watching in year 2020. Do we even have enough police to watch people based only on what maybe might happen? I think the expectation that without any known, active criminal involvement police should’ve predicted he would become a mass murderer is an unreasonable expectation. I can’t help but think of “thought police” and the book 1984, cameras everywhere watching us, yikes, no thanks!

Absolutely nothing has been said about the most important time period - the days leading up to April 18th, what were the stressors, did anybody he interacted with notice anything alarming? But even then it’s a fallacy that somebody could’ve called 911 beforehand and had him hauled away by the men in white jackets. Unless he agreed to mental health treatment, unless he expressed he was a harm to himself or others our laws also prevent involuntary treatment in a mental institution.

JMO we either want individual rights and freedom respected in our country or we want a heavy-handed police state...but it can’t be both.

 

[tayaway]

As well he operated a longterm, seemingly lucrative, reputable denturist business involving interaction with other people with no indication he was off-the-wall crazy. I don’t think there was enough indications this was a person who required watching in year 2020. Do we even have enough police to watch people based only on what maybe might happen? I think the expectation that without any known, active criminal involvement police should’ve predicted he would become a mass murderer is an unreasonable expectation. I can’t help but think of “thought police” and the book 1984, cameras everywhere watching us, yikes, no thanks!

Absolutely nothing has been said about the most important time period - the days leading up to April 18th, what were the stressors, did anybody he interacted with notice anything alarming? But even then it’s a fallacy that somebody could’ve called 911 beforehand and had him hauled away by the men in white jackets. Unless he agreed to mental health treatment, unless he expressed he was a harm to himself or others our laws also prevent involuntary treatment in a mental institution.

JMO we either want individual rights and freedom respected in our country or we want a heavy-handed police state...but it can’t be both.

Why can't we create a balanced system? As a society, although we have a long way to go, we are getting better at recognizing and assisting with mental illness.