GUILTY Canada - Taliyah Marsman, 5, & Sara Baillie, 34, Calgary, 11 July 2016 #2

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MsMarple said:
RSBM

The whole "debt" thing has me really confused. If Sara owed ED money what was the point of him killing her and Taliyah? If he actually was her pimp then he was getting a steady stream of income even if she was holding some back. Why throw that away? And if SB was trying to buy her way out of the arrangement (which apparently happens with members of North Preston's Finest - women buy out of sex trafficking for amounts like 5k or more) then why kill her before she had a chance to start paying?

And, according to CM he paid SB a lump payment of about 5k just weeks before her death. If she was trying to get out of the escort business then surely she would have turned that money over to ED. So... some possibilities. Maybe she didn't give ED the 5k and he got mad. Or maybe CM lied to media and didn't really pay that amount. Or maybe I'm just overthinking LE's comment about "debt." I dunno.

One other thing that did cross my mind was the possibility of CM owing a debt to ED, not SB. What better way to send a message to CM that says ED meant business than killing CM's child and her mother? However, LE also said SB was the target, not Taliyah, plus it sounds like there was no love lost between SB and CM. And CM claims not to know ED. So, one final thought is that SB's pimp was not ED but rather CM but I don't think I'm allowed to explore that possibility right now so I'll just call it some wild speculation.

Anyway, maybe more will come out to help explain what happened. I'm so sorry Taliyah was involved in this mess of adult behavior. :tears: RIP Sara and Taliyah.
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Is it possible that the suspect felt double-crossed? Suppose he set her up with clients and she decided to go solo with those clients - essentially cutting him out of the business plan. She would owe the suspect money per his rules, but she wouldn't per her rules. There would be no more money for him going forward with her business plan and his clients.
 
otto said:
Is it possible that the suspect felt double-crossed? Suppose he set her up with clients and she decided to go solo with those clients - essentially cutting him out of the business plan. She would owe the suspect money per his rules, but she wouldn't per her rules. There would be no more money for him going forward with her business plan and his clients.
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Yeah, I can see that happening. But ED could easily have punished SB with a black eye and a threat of worse to follow if she did it again. The bottom line is always going to be money and a dead escort isn't going to bring in money. Killing SB and Taliyah is so over the top - I just feel lke we're missing a big chunk of information.

One other thing that bothers me is SB's age. At 34 she doesn't fit the profile of the girls North Preston's Finest gang members groom into prostitution. From the comments of her friends it sounds like her decision to become an escort was fairly recent, and by her own choice. So maybe she was trying to be an independent agent and that crossed over into ED's "territory."
 
MsMarple said:
Yeah, I can see that happening. But ED could easily have punished SB with a black eye and a threat of worse to follow if she did it again. The bottom line is always going to be money and a dead escort isn't going to bring in money. Killing SB and Taliyah is so over the top - I just feel lke we're missing a big chunk of information.

One other thing that bothers me is SB's age. At 34 she doesn't fit the profile of the girls North Preston's Finest gang members groom into prostitution. From the comments of her friends it sounds like her decision to become an escort was fairly recent, and by her own choice. So maybe she was trying to be an independent agent and that crossed over into ED's "territory."
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Alive or dead, she very likely had no intension of paying him his cut. She was most likely taking his clients and cutting out the middle man. He might have perceived that she was stealing from him. Letting her live would not mean that he would get paid, but it would mean that he would lose respect in his profession if his employee stole his clients and income.

I don't think this is an Atlantic coast gang thing. She was a Calgary prostitute working for a Calgary drug dealing ****g/pimp - nothing more than that.
 
otto said:
Alive or dead, she very likely had no intension of paying him his cut. She was most likely taking his clients and cutting out the middle man. He might have perceived that she was stealing from him. Letting her live would not mean that he would get paid, but it would mean that he would lose respect in his profession if his employee stole his clients and income.

I don't think this is an Atlantic coast gang thing. She was a Calgary prostitute working for a Calgary drug dealing ****g/pimp - nothing more than that.
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IMO it is very much tied to the NS gang. Myself and others have spent weeks looking at how ED and the people associated with him tie back to the gang in NS.
 
kdgdid said:
IMO it is very much tied to the NS gang. Myself and others have spent weeks looking at how ED and the people associated with him tie back to the gang in NS.
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Assuming that Ed is the suspect, perhaps he's a wannabe gang-ster, but I doubt any gangsters viewed him as part of the team.
 
He was very much part of the team. One only has to look at his parole documents and trace his name back and it becomes clear how much a part of the team he was.
 
cpuld you please share the porole document link?
Thanks
 
MsMarple said:
RSBM

The whole "debt" thing has me really confused. If Sara owed ED money what was the point of him killing her and Taliyah?

[...]
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This was probably a crime of passion. If debt really was the motive, then he killed her because he became enraged about the debt, not as a punishment for having the debt. They probably got into some kind of heated argument and he just lost it.
 
AceDetective said:
This was probably a crime of passion. If debt really was the motive, then he killed her because he became enraged about the debt, not as a punishment for having the debt. They probably got into some kind of heated argument and he just lost it.
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If that were the case, then wouldn't ED have been charged with 2nd degree murder at least in SB's case?
 
deugirtni said:
If that were the case, then wouldn't ED have been charged with 2nd degree murder at least in SB's case?
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In Canada, first degree murder doesn't necessarily have to be planned, there are certain circumstances that automatically make a murder a first degree murder. For example, if the murder is to benefit a gang it's first degree. If he was attempting to intimidate her, or criminally harass her, and it turned into murder, that's first degree murder. A murder during a kidnapping is first degree murder.

See: Canadian_homicide
 
Incidentally, I've been wondering just why police think the murder was over a debt. Who is their source? If Downey himself told them that, saying something like, "I didn't mean to kill her, I was just trying to collect a debt," then he unwittingly bought himself a first degree murder charge.
 
AceDetective said:
Incidentally, I've been wondering just why police think the murder was over a debt. Who is their source? If Downey himself told them that, saying something like, "I didn't mean to kill her, I was just trying to collect a debt," then he unwittingly bought himself a first degree murder charge.
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IMO it was people that were interviewed. It was may understanding he did not cooperate yet LE knew enough about him that they searched several residences before LE searched his.
 
deugirtni said:
I guess if they found SB's body in the closet and she had been shackled or confined in some way, or sexually assaulted(?), that could be why he got chgd with 1st degree?
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Who knows what evidence they have. The cause of death could make it look premeditated as opposed to an accident, or a threat text, or evidence collected at his house, etc.

Speaking of which, there was a court date yesterday for the crown to hand over disclosure.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...aillie-court-amber-alert-disclosure-1.3733845

"Crown prosecutor Ryan Jenkins said further disclosure would only be made if there was evidence collected as part of the ongoing investigation."

So they might have all the evidence they're going to get. Hope it's enough and the have the right guy.

Next court date is Sept 7. Lawyers only again.
 
In a recent news release, there was an interesting comment that the suspect does not want this case to be tried in the media, and that too much information has already been released about his history. There's obviously no issue in relation to a tainted jury in a city of 1.3 million people - many of whom are disinterested in news, especially drug pimp news, so I wonder what the concern is about.

Is the suspect feeling exposed an vulnerable?
 
deugirtni said:
I guess if they found SB's body in the closet and she had been shackled or confined in some way, or sexually assaulted(?), that could be why he got chgd with 1st degree?
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I haven't been able to keep up with the news ... is the first degree murder in relation to Sara or her daughter? Her daughter is obviously a first degree murder case because her mother was murdered and thus unable to protect the child, the child was abducted and transported to a remote location where she was also murdered - giving the suspect ample private time with a 5 year old child. This scenario gives the impression that the child was the actual target, although facts of the case suggest that the mother was the target.

Regardless, is the first degree murder charge in relation to the murder of Sara Bailey?
 
otto said:
I haven't been able to keep up with the news ... is the first degree murder in relation to Sara or her daughter? Her daughter is obviously a first degree murder case because her mother was murdered and thus unable to protect the child, the child was abducted and transported to a remote location where she was also murdered - giving the suspect ample private time with a 5 year old child. This scenario gives the impression that the child was the actual target, although facts of the case suggest that the mother was the target.

Regardless, is the first degree murder charge in relation to the murder of Sara Bailey?
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Yes, first degree for both

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