GUILTY Canada - Taylor Van Diest, 18, beaten to death, Armstrong, BC, 31 Oct 2011

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CanadianCandy said:
Hey yall, i am from the immediate area and thought i would share some of my thoughts. All this is only my opinion, information is being held tight at this point by RCMP and i only wish to share a local perspective.

1 It is most likely she did not have intimate/personal knowledge of the attacker, if she had, she likely would have named them in the last text she sent out. eg "_____ is creepin me out".

2 The above mentioned text was in all likelihood sent by her (any misspellings is probably do to ether short hand text/slang or panicked fingers/trying to feel less alone), makes no sense for the perpetrator to send this text in an effort to evade then leave the phone laying so close to where obvious foot traffic would surly pass.

3 This path by the tracks is well used, it is likely the attacker has used it regularly in the past as most locals have.

4 It is unlikely the attacker had a car with them (she would have been dragged into the car and not the bushes/woods if the attacker had one) or even owned one at all (this is my feeling due to what seems to be an intimate knowledge of the area), further pointing to his being local.

I can see how some people might be interested in exploring any links to the highway of tears (as mentioned in a previous post) but this is not very plausible/probable. I think whoever is on this track may have mistaken some of the information released to the public regarding the HoT investigation. At this investigations onset the police took a look at all crimes with similar victims/circumstances/patterns (245 characteristics). One local murder in a town 15mins down the road from Armstrong was represented on a separate list (the victim was a 17yr old girl named Jamie Van Weiren and it occurred in 1994) which was created through the initial HoT probe. The list she appeared on was of murders/disappearances mostly in the southern area of BC and not related to the HoT (which is very northerly). This list also included Mindy Tran and Micheal Dunahee, 2 small children. For whatever reason the investigators see similarities between these crimes and 8 others (one has since been solved, Jennifer Cusworth) sweeping from BC's coast all the way to Edmonton but they do not see them as being related to the HoT, M.O.'s must be different even though these crimes and the HoT are all most likely stranger on stranger crimes. The probability of Taylor's murder being related to these is slim due to the different M.O.'s. (of course M.O.'s can change with time and necessity hmmmmm)

The letter to the police is disturbing although not at all unheard of in these parts. A few hours down the road in a town named Abbotsford a man named Terry driver attacked 2 young girls with a baseball bat (one lived, the attack was sexually motivated). After the attack he wrote letters and called the police inc wrapping one letter to rock and throwing it through a random house window in the community. He also stole and desecrated the victim's tombstone then left it on a radio news vehicle. He claims also to have committed 3 murders that occurred in 1989. His was/is clearly narcissistic and craves notoriety/attention. Armstrong is a very small community, 4500 people. I don't want to think that 2 (Taylor's murderer and the letter writer) so severely mentally ill individuals can live in such close proximity to each other. Time will tell though as in TD's case his attention seeking and narcissism drove him to continually up the anti. If this letter is from her attacker he will most likely follow suit and continue to seek attention.

My Mom thinks it was a sort of group thrill kill by peers. Her opinion stems from the fact Taylor was beaten severely and not well hidden. She say's it reminds her of the Reena Virk murder in 1997 on BC's coast. As you can see my thoughts are different then hers but i continue to ponder this very possible scenario as well. If it has some truth then not all involved will be able to stay quiet and it will come to light sooner then later.

With little facts being made available my mind wonders over the little details that are known and of course non can make sense of this very senseless crime.

Thank you for taking the time to read my mini novel and for discussing the factual information that has been released and being respectful of Taylor and the community in this pursuit.
Click to expand...

Great post, CC, thank-you for taking the time to join WS and give all of us your perspective.

You raise some excellent points.

Your thoughts regarding the perp(s) being on foot, a local familiar with the tracks, Taylor being the one who did the final text......all great points.

The following points are of interest to me, as they seem to stand out with respect to this crime:

1. The early evening time of the attack. Did we ever determine if it was dark out? Was the perp(s) so driven by the gore of the evening, that they could not refrain from attacking either in the light, or so early when so many people were out and about? :waitasec:

2. The phone. Surely the perp(s) must have known Taylor was on the phone, had a phone. Did they see her texting? Did they throw the phone away? Didn't the perp(s) worry about the phone at all?

3. If the tracks were so regularily used, wouldn't a local know that there would be alot of traffic on them, especially on Hallowe'en night?

If Taylor was targeted, it does seem the killer acted impulsively in some of the behaviour, and was therefore a disorganized killer, so that doesn't exactly jive, if you kwim?

CanadianCandy, what is your theory on what happened to Taylor?
 
More on the letter:

Such letters not unusual

Simon Fraser University criminologist Rob Gordon said he’s not surprised someone has written such a letter.

“They're not unusual, particularly with a high-profile case like this one,” Gordon told CBC News.

Gordon said threatening letters are often fake and written by an unstable person who wants some fame themselves and enjoys spreading fear.

He said police are doing the right thing by going public, even if the letter is fake, because it serves as a reminder.

“Bottom line is, they've got somebody in that community or vicinity who's responsible for a killing and they haven't yet identified who that person may be.”

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...11/10/bc-killer-letter-community-leaders.html
Click to expand...
 
Mounties are bringing in more patrol officers. The city is also working to improve lighting and residents are being told it's dangerous to walk outside at night.

The acting mayor wants to provide another option for community members who want to go outside.

"This is a great city for walking, so we're going to open this arena probably Monday… for people to walk rather than walking out on the streets," Sullivan said.

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/...trong_111111/20111111?hub=BritishColumbiaHome
 
matou said:
Thank you CanadianCandy. After reading it made me think about the term "being creeped". A creeper is usually an older man who is "creepy" in a general sense but usually gives the impression that he is a pervert. My students use this term, I've heard them use 'creeper' but not 'being creeped'.

From Urban dictionary:



I'm gonna have to think about this. I was thinking it was a gang of younger people into death and gore. "Being creeped" is making me think it's a single person and an older guy (not necessarily an old man).

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=creeped
Click to expand...

I wouldn't interpret it as being an older person. I've heard "creeping" (the verb, not the adjective) commonly used among young adults in reference to someone checking them out online. For example looking up every detail about them on their Facebook page and checking out their friends' FB pages. It doesn't usually relate at all to older people.

To confirm my view I just asked my 19 year old son, that, if he heard that a young woman texted that she was being creeped, and was killed shortly after that, would he assume that it was an older person. His reply was, "not at all".
 
CanadianCandy said:
Hey yall, i am from the immediate area and thought i would share some of my thoughts. All this is only my opinion, information is being held tight at this point by RCMP and i only wish to share a local perspective.

1 It is most likely she did not have intimate/personal knowledge of the attacker, if she had, she likely would have named them in the last text she sent out. eg "_____ is creepin me out".

2 The above mentioned text was in all likelihood sent by her (any misspellings is probably do to ether short hand text/slang or panicked fingers/trying to feel less alone), makes no sense for the perpetrator to send this text in an effort to evade then leave the phone laying so close to where obvious foot traffic would surly pass.

3 This path by the tracks is well used, it is likely the attacker has used it regularly in the past as most locals have.

4 It is unlikely the attacker had a car with them (she would have been dragged into the car and not the bushes/woods if the attacker had one) or even owned one at all (this is my feeling due to what seems to be an intimate knowledge of the area), further pointing to his being local.

I can see how some people might be interested in exploring any links to the highway of tears (as mentioned in a previous post) but this is not very plausible/probable. I think whoever is on this track may have mistaken some of the information released to the public regarding the HoT investigation. At this investigations onset the police took a look at all crimes with similar victims/circumstances/patterns (245 characteristics). One local murder in a town 15mins down the road from Armstrong was represented on a separate list (the victim was a 17yr old girl named Jamie Van Weiren and it occurred in 1994) which was created through the initial HoT probe. The list she appeared on was of murders/disappearances mostly in the southern area of BC and not related to the HoT (which is very northerly). This list also included Mindy Tran and Micheal Dunahee, 2 small children. For whatever reason the investigators see similarities between these crimes and 8 others (one has since been solved, Jennifer Cusworth) sweeping from BC's coast all the way to Edmonton but they do not see them as being related to the HoT, M.O.'s must be different even though these crimes and the HoT are all most likely stranger on stranger crimes. The probability of Taylor's murder being related to these is slim due to the different M.O.'s. (of course M.O.'s can change with time and necessity hmmmmm)

The letter to the police is disturbing although not at all unheard of in these parts. A few hours down the road in a town named Abbotsford a man named Terry driver attacked 2 young girls with a baseball bat (one lived, the attack was sexually motivated). After the attack he wrote letters and called the police inc wrapping one letter to rock and throwing it through a random house window in the community. He also stole and desecrated the victim's tombstone then left it on a radio news vehicle. He claims also to have committed 3 murders that occurred in 1989. His was/is clearly narcissistic and craves notoriety/attention. Armstrong is a very small community, 4500 people. I don't want to think that 2 (Taylor's murderer and the letter writer) so severely mentally ill individuals can live in such close proximity to each other. Time will tell though as in TD's case his attention seeking and narcissism drove him to continually up the anti. If this letter is from her attacker he will most likely follow suit and continue to seek attention.

My Mom thinks it was a sort of group thrill kill by peers. Her opinion stems from the fact Taylor was beaten severely and not well hidden. She say's it reminds her of the Reena Virk murder in 1997 on BC's coast. As you can see my thoughts are different then hers but i continue to ponder this very possible scenario as well. If it has some truth then not all involved will be able to stay quiet and it will come to light sooner then later.

With little facts being made available my mind wonders over the little details that are known and of course non can make sense of this very senseless crime.

Thank you for taking the time to read my mini novel and for discussing the factual information that has been released and being respectful of Taylor and the community in this pursuit.
Click to expand...

Welcome to Websleuths, CanadianCandy! What an excellent post. Well thought out and organized.

It is also great to hear from a local.

I don't recall seeing any photos of the path. Would it be possible for you or someone else from the area to post a few photos up of the path so we could have a better perspective?

Also, do you know where Taylor was headed as she took that path (not necessarily the specific address, but the general area) ?
 
@ dotr ... Thank you for the kind welcome :)

@ matou Re: creeped .... I also find this fact something that leads me in only one direction. A singular perpetrator following in too close a proximity. However i can't put an age on the person she is referring to based on this.

@ matou .... As for keeping the spelling mistakes a secret, i believe the reasoning behind this is, if on the off chance it was sent as an evade/menacing act by the attacker then they can perhaps use it to make a positive identification of him .... I don't agree with it, the text came at 6pm, 10ish mins after she left her home. My guess would be that when the phone was found @ 7:30pm it was mere feet from where she was when she sent the 6pm text and her activity on the phone ceased.

The assailant could have been doing any number of things deemed creep worthy, from simply following to close to making lude/creepy cat calls.

Re: Your other questions, there is no concrete answers

Was there blood around?

There were some slightly askew evidence markers but whether they were marking footprints, items, blood etc isn't known.

Were her clothes still on her when she was found?

This isn't publicly known but by my best deduction i think it's safe to assume that if they were not all on her then they were in close proximity to her. If anything was missing there would have most likely been an intentional collaborative (RCMP and S&R) search for these items. I am fairly certain the community would have been made aware of this as any items could have been discarded anywhere, making it much more effective to have an entire communities eyes open and looking for it.

Was she sexually assaulted?

This detail is unknown and may never be released publicly, it will most likely only be known if there is charged suspect at which point it would come out in trial. It is one of the very few things that RCMP can keep secret and use in a positive identification of the attacker.

@ wondergirl .... Thank you for the kind welcome :)

Did we ever determine if it was dark out?

I can't recall the exact time of dusk but i do know that by 5:30pm when i started to hand out candy, night had completely fallen. So by 6pm it was dark out already. As per the second part of your question i only have a partial answer, the path albeit well used is situated between house clusters. Not close enough to any that people would be constantly flowing through it but rather used when one neighborhood was trick or treat exhausted as means to get to the other. Or used by teens/young adults from the further areas (like where Taylor lived) to get to the many parties and also fireworks display if they were on foot and without a car.

Did they see her texting? Did they throw the phone away? Didn't the perp(s) worry about the phone at all?

I think the last question has the most plausible/possible answer. If the phone concerned them at all i am sure it would have been a lot harder to find. They ether seen her texting and didn't care or she had her back to them and they didn't see it all. Possibly heard it drop on the onset of the attack but had no time to deal with/conceal it.

If the tracks were so regularily used, wouldn't a local know that there would be alot of traffic on them, especially on Hallowe'en night?

I guess 'regularly used' is a situational term. The population is small, only 4,500 people. The path is used more on school days by students then any-other time. On Halloween night it would have been used mostly by older trick or treaters (the young ones generally are taken downtown to trick or treat from the local merchants) going from one house cluster to another and any young adults from surrounding neighborhoods who set out on foot for the fireworks or any random parties. She also was not directly on the path by any means, i believe she was 12ish feet from it concealed in some thick(ish) underbrush that lines the wooded area. In my opinion the onslaught of the attack was sudden and incapacitating. Despite this i believe the attacker spent very little time with her and was spooked off very soon after (possibly by the noises her phone was making as her friend tried to re-establish contact with her in an effort to get a response and meet up with her).

If Taylor was targeted, it does seem the killer acted impulsively in some of the behaviour, and was therefore a disorganized killer, so that doesn't exactly jive, if you kwim?

I think she was targeted but only seconds to a minute before it happened. This gives weight to both it being targeted and disorganized.

CanadianCandy, what is your theory on what happened to Taylor?

I have a few. The most plausible one for me is also the worst possible one, but i can't ignore it as everything that has been released screams it to me. I believe she was targeted, attacked and incapacitated in quick concession. Then the perpetrator was just as quickly spooked off. In my opinion the attacker is local (i am confident the geographical profile will show this in it's report) this is his first random attack (he will probably have some less then stellar reviews from ex girlfriends and females he was involved with in the past). If he isn't caught he will re-offend IMO

@ snoopster ... Thank you for the kind welcome :)

I don't recall seeing any photos of the path. Would it be possible for you or someone else from the area to post a few photos up of the path so we could have a better perspective?

I tried to find it on google earth but its impossible to point out properly for someone who has never seen the area. I will however try to venture that way this week and get some pic's to better explain it.

do you know where Taylor was headed as she took that path (not necessarily the specific address, but the general area) ?

In early coverage on the radio it was said she was meeting up with the friend she last texted, then heading to a private/house party and finally the fireworks. Do to the time line i believe she only made part way through her 1st step in her plans ie 10mins into her journey to meet up with her friend.

I hope i didn't miss anyone and again thank you all for the kind welcomes ..... 2 posts and 2 novels, sorry for the length lol
 
Thanks again CanadianCandy, 'mini-novels" are just fine in my book!
 
Welcome CanadianCandy, and Thanks for all your input. So tragic and sad for Taylor's family and friends, and for your lovely little community. I'm in Lower Mainland and haven't been to Armstrong, but have a friend who moved from there a few years ago and says they won't be happy until they can move back to Armstrong.

Depending on the degree of social media Taylor used on a regular basis, and the content ... she may have been targeted by an online predator who determined her costume and her plans for the evening.

Meanwhile, a 56 y.o. female has been found dead in Princeton BC (about 150 miles southwest of Armstrong). As the Nov 9 attendance by LE was in response to a request for a well-being check, there is no timeline given as yet re an approximate date the victim may have died.

http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/133740808.html

Can't find the article I initially read last nite, but in it, RCMP made reference to not knowing whether or not it was in any way connected to Taylor's case.
 
I think if the perp is local homeless person, the police would have a really good idea of who this person could be. Even if it is a transient, the cops would probably have enough of an idea of who could be dangerous and in the area at the time. A person needs to eat and a wanderer would have to go into town to get some kinds of provisions. In my opinion, it is a local person. I'm going back to my original thought that it is a young person who is into gore and horror, and was in costume and committed a thrill kill type of thing. It was Halloween night. He may have been high or drunk. He may not have been alone. JMO JMO JMO
 
Wondergirl said:
Maybe this is what you read, Silly:
Click to expand...

Thanks anyway WG, but ... No, the article i read contained a specific statement WRT whether or not the two distinct cases could be related. I suspect it's been pulled or edited since the original version.
 
Has anyone checked out her WoW account info yet? I'm not sure which one she is but I think I have an idea. I don't have an account with WoW at all and I really don't want to start one, lol.
 
Read thru this earlier. Had a thought about the "i'm being creeped" text. Do we know what type of phone she had? The nice kind with the pull out keyboard or a crappy one with just a keypad? Thinking about ways to misspell "creeped" I'm thinking either 2 p's, 1 e, or pd. If she just had a keypad phone, that would be easy to do if she was getting real nervous and looking around while she was writing the text.
 
Although this happened in Chilliwack, I could not help but wonder if some odd game like this went wrong for Taylor.
http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/299704--chilliwack-teens-recreate-to-catch-a-predator
CHILLIWACK (NEWS1130) - Three teenagers in Chilliwack are in trouble with police, after producing hidden-camera style crime fighting videos and posting them on YouTube. Using websites like Plenty of Fish and Craigslist, they lured men to local McDonald's restaurants and other locations in town, believing they were meeting a 15-year-old girl..
 
Nothing new, just this little bit in Simon Fraser University link.
http://www.sfu.ca/sfunews/stories/sfu-people-in-the-news-november-16-2011.html
CBC-TV’s national news used a clip from Rob Gordon, director of SFU Criminology, as CBC looked at the murder in Armstrong BC on Oct. 31 of 18-year-old Taylor Van Diest, and at how the RCMP received a letter that purported to be from the murderer.
Reporter Ian Hanomansing: “The criminologist says whether the letter is real or not, the public warning is still important.”
Rob Gordon: “This is an unsolved murder. We do not know who the person is or why it happened. So until we do, you need to be very careful.”
 
I can not help but wonder if this was not a premeditated murder but maybe a confrontation
by someone who perceived an indiscretion on Taylor's part. Most murders are done by someone the victim knew. So it stands to reason that the person that took her life probably knew her and is in her age group. The person could hide behind a costume as it was Halloween and Taylor would be creeped if she could not identify the person. Keep in mind that the tracks she was attacked by are made of steel, not very giving against a skull so if there was some sort of struggle and she fell on the tracks it could cause a severe head injury that if left unattended could be fatal.

The letter could have been sent by the killer only to move suspicion from them and have the police looking at a possible " serial killer"

I think that the killer is disorganized male or female ,most likely female, between the ages of 15 and 25, this person would feel intense remorse and behavior would change although those around them would attribute this to the lose of their "friend"
 
Blueflame said:
I can not help but wonder if this was not a premeditated murder but maybe a confrontation
by someone who perceived an indiscretion on Taylor's part. Most murders are done by someone the victim knew. So it stands to reason that the person that took her life probably knew her and is in her age group. The person could hide behind a costume as it was Halloween and Taylor would be creeped if she could not identify the person. Keep in mind that the tracks she was attacked by are made of steel, not very giving against a skull so if there was some sort of struggle and she fell on the tracks it could cause a severe head injury that if left unattended could be fatal.

The letter could have been sent by the killer only to move suspicion from them and have the police looking at a possible " serial killer"

I think that the killer is disorganized male or female ,most likely female, between the ages of 15 and 25, this person would feel intense remorse and behavior would change although those around them would attribute this to the lose of their "friend"
Click to expand...


Thanks for joining, Blueflame. That is a great first post. Some interesting thoughts and new ideas there for sure.

I never thought about Taylor's COD being the actual railway track. We don't know what her wounds were at all, really.

Good point about the behaviour change by her killer. LE hasn't asked the public to be on the lookout for someone who's behaviour has changed, I don't think, but, as you mention, it could be justified by "grief", which probably wouldn't be entirely contrived if it was an accidental death.

It is interesting that you think her killer is female. Hmmm.....
 
GannyP said:
WOW! That is an odd link. I think that poor woman has the most vivid imagination of anyone I have ever come across. Can anyone take her seriously?

Who really killed poor Taylor??:furious:
Click to expand...

I think someone (a psychiatrist) should take her seriously. She needs help.


" ... she'd once had a novel accepted for publication by a publisher, then had the contract mysteriously disappear after meeting with the editor ..."


gee ... I wonder why :waitasec:
 
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