Canadian hostage, wife & children freed from Afghanistan, husband arrested for abuse, Oct 2017 #2

[human]

I'm surprised that the children were with their mother in her hospital room if they did not need medical care. There must have been a realistic concern that he would harm her and the children.

I know with the First Nation peoples of Canada, many family members come to the hospital. Not unusual at all.

I think in European hospitals as well there are family members that come

 

[nuff]

I'm just a bit confused about the reason for the allegations and charges. The fact that he gave her a list of expectations is cruel, but it doesn't seem to be against the law. That he wants to take his children back to the Middle East is unwise, but not illegal. Spousal rape is very difficult to prove as it is one word against another. If he has a criminal conviction, it probably means that he cannot travel to the USA to visit his children. I feel like I'm getting lost in terms of understanding the decision to lay charges. There must be something that I'm missing.

If he is guilty as charged, it's assault. A person (including a spouse) cannot consent to being assaulted. See:Canadian Criminal Law/Consent - Wikibooks, open books for an open world Nor can a child, if that's whom the other charges relate to. Rape is assault, and while it may be difficult to prove, it is not impossible. The list is a piece of evidence which, IMO, speaks to her credibility as a witness in general.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

I'm just a bit confused about the reason for the allegations and charges. The fact that he gave her a list of expectations is cruel, but it doesn't seem to be against the law. That he wants to take his children back to the Middle East is unwise, but not illegal. Spousal rape is very difficult to prove as it is one word against another. If he has a criminal conviction, it probably means that he cannot travel to the USA to visit his children. I feel like I'm getting lost in terms of understanding the decision to lay charges. There must be something that I'm missing.

Since they returned from Afghanistan, Joshua slapped and slugged Caitlan in the head and face on multiple occasions. He also bit her and imprisoned her against her will in their apartment. He also tried to sodomize her against her will which is attempted rape.

 

[otto]

I think she would have to get one in the US in her city

Of course, but the justification for the restraining order is published in the news so she would not have to do much to obtain it.

 

[otto]

I know with the First Nation peoples of Canada, many family members come to the hospital. Not unusual at all.

I think in European hospitals as well there are family members that come

That may be the case when the indigenous family is flown into the city, otherwise Ronald MacDonald house is for families, or families stay at home. In this case, perhaps it is because the children were born in captivity and needed to be close to their mother for their well being? Hospitals are for sick people who need rest, and if they are well enough to look after active pre-schoolers, they probably don't need to be in hospital.

 

[otto]

If he is guilty as charged, it's assault. A person (including a spouse) cannot consent to being assaulted. See:Canadian Criminal Law/Consent - Wikibooks, open books for an open world Nor can a child, if that's whom the other charges relate to. Rape is assault, and while it may be difficult to prove, it is not impossible. The list is a piece of evidence which, IMO, speaks to her credibility as a witness in general.

I still don't understand why being rude to someone on an airplane is relevant to spousal rape. I guess it's a circumstantial case where pattern of behaviour is meant to support allegations of abuse.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Of course, but the justification for the restraining order is published in the news so she would not have to do much to obtain it.

Not true. There's numerous hours of effort required to get a protection from abuse order or restraining order. (I recently volunteered at domestic violence shelter.)
1. Person must drive to county courthouse , park, pay for 5 hours of parking, and then sit waiting for a desk clerk to call upon him/her.
2. Person must fill out 5+ page questionnaire.
3. Person must then go to be interviewed by the county sheriff's designee to determine the danger to sheriff's deputies when they must serve notice of the PFA order or restraining order to the abuser.
4. Person must go back to court house and then wait for hours to go in front of the judge.
5. Person must stand in front of judge and present evidence while he/she asks questions
6. Temporary restraining order may or may not be given for 15 days.
7. Fifteen days later, person must again drive to county courthouse on assigned date
8 .Person must again go in front of the judge with the abuser in the same room.
9. Person must explain to judge again why he/she needs restraining order.
10. Defendant's attorney can question the person.Person must withstand questioning.
11. If the judge determines there is evidence of need for PFA or restraining order, person must wait for sometimes over an hour to get the court sealed paperwork.
12. Person must hurry like a bat out of hell to get far away from the courthouse before the
abuser catches up with them leaving the courthouse or on the road.

 

[Intermezzo]

I'm surprised that the children were with their mother in her hospital room if they did not need medical care. There must have been a realistic concern that he would harm her and the children.

My thought at the time the photo was released of her in the hospital was perhaps it was difficult or fearful for the children to be away from her.
They had only just returned and the Boyle and Coleman families were strangers to the children.

Dunno.

 

[otto]

My thought at the time the photo was released of her in the hospital was perhaps it was difficult or fearful for the children to be away from her.
They had only just returned and the Boyle and Coleman families were strangers to the children.

Dunno.

Maybe this is about putting him in a psychiatric ward so he can get help for PTSD after 5 years in captivity. It seems clear that he is abusive, but he has unique circumstances that could have influenced how he relates to others. Even if he was abusive prior to their travels in the Middle East, she still went with him. It would not be surprising if that abuse escalated due to their captivity. I suppose the part that doesn't make sense is the idea of putting a man with his circumstances in prison rather than in mental health care.

 

[bears10]

If indeed he was a kidnap victim for 5 years, it's not really surprising that he was a bit nuts when he was released. Being rude is not illegal, so I'm curious why the prosecution is introducing this evidence. It's not even illegal to be a controlling or domineering person.

Because it shows his character. Things like this are brought up all the time in court. It shows he is controlling, condescending, and demanding. Which fits with him being an abuser.

I must say I am pretty shocked at the criticism and scrutinization of a victim that seems to be going on in this thread.

 

[human]

Maybe this is about putting him in a psychiatric ward so he can get help for PTSD after 5 years in captivity. It seems clear that he is abusive, but he has unique circumstances that could have influenced how he relates to others. Even if he was abusive prior to their travels in the Middle East, she still went with him. It would not be surprising if that abuse escalated due to their captivity. I suppose the part that doesn't make sense is the idea of putting a man with his circumstances in prison rather than in mental health care.

In the US mental health care is just about non existent. How is it in Canada?

 

[bears10]

That may be the case when the indigenous family is flown into the city, otherwise Ronald MacDonald house is for families, or families stay at home. In this case, perhaps it is because the children were born in captivity and needed to be close to their mother for their well being? Hospitals are for sick people who need rest, and if they are well enough to look after active pre-schoolers, they probably don't need to be in hospital.

Respectfully - what are you talking about? People have visitors in the hospital all the time. when my husband was in the hospital I didn’t leave his side, I slept on a chair. His kids were allowed to visit as frequently they liked for as long as they liked. I bet it was far easier for JB to bring the kids to the hospital every day, or even stay there 24/7, so CC could tend to them as opposed to actually having to parent on his own. Remember, they had just been released from captivity. I can’t see a hospital telling JB and the kids they had to leave.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Respectfully - what are you talking about? People have visitors in the hospital all the time. when my husband was in the hospital I didn’t leave his side, I slept on a chair. His kids were allowed to visit as frequently they liked for as long as they liked. I bet it was far easier for JB to bring the kids to the hospital every day, or even stay there 24/7, so CC could tend to them as opposed to actually having to parent on his own. Remember, they had just been released from captivity. I can’t see a hospital telling JB and the kids they had to leave.

My whole family slept at my ill husband's bedside. The hospital only provided one recliner, so my son brought in 4 camping chairs.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Maybe this is about putting him in a psychiatric ward so he can get help for PTSD after 5 years in captivity. It seems clear that he is abusive, but he has unique circumstances that could have influenced how he relates to others. Even if he was abusive prior to their travels in the Middle East, she still went with him. It would not be surprising if that abuse escalated due to their captivity. I suppose the part that doesn't make sense is the idea of putting a man with his circumstances in prison rather than in mental health care.

She didn't "just go with him". Articles state that Caitlan told Josh she would not go into Afghanistan. He promised her they would not travel there. When they left Russia, he led her to the border of Afghanistan and then crossed into it. He thought he was going to become a famous writer or post war correspondent. He took his heavily pregnant wife because her presence was supposed to grant him protection. He's used her from day one. Imo, he's evil, not mentally ill.

 

[Intermezzo]

In the US mental health care is just about non existent. How is it in Canada?

We do have mental health care services, programs, clinics available to us. Even hospitals dedicated to mental health.
The need for mental health is great, it seems greater than when I was growing up and arguments have been made that it is also underfunded as opposed to medical/physical care.
Since 1961 Ottawa has had a hospital dedicated to mental health care alone. The other area hospitals all have a mental health unit.
The same, I am sure, can be found in cities throughout the country.
The hospital I work at has been fundraising and getting funding from the government in order to almost double our mental health unit.

 

[otto]

Respectfully - what are you talking about? People have visitors in the hospital all the time. when my husband was in the hospital I didn’t leave his side, I slept on a chair. His kids were allowed to visit as frequently they liked for as long as they liked. I bet it was far easier for JB to bring the kids to the hospital every day, or even stay there 24/7, so CC could tend to them as opposed to actually having to parent on his own. Remember, they had just been released from captivity. I can’t see a hospital telling JB and the kids they had to leave.

My understanding is that the children were in the room with the ailing mother and taking meals with her, and she was expected to look after them and entertain them while she was sick. That is quite different from a visit.

 

[otto]

She didn't "just go with him". Articles state that Caitlan told Josh she would not go into Afghanistan. He promised her they would not travel there. When they left Russia, he led her to the border of Afghanistan and then crossed into it. He thought he was going to become a famous writer or post war correspondent. He took his heavily pregnant wife because her presence was supposed to grant him protection. He's used her from day one. Imo, he's evil, not mentally ill.

I've read that there was abuse prior to their travels. She still chose to travel internationally with him.

 

[Intermezzo]

Boyle Trial: Caitlan Coleman's worried sister warned the FBI to prepare a 'safety net,' court hears

Boyle Trial: Caitlan Coleman's worried sister warned the FBI to prepare a 'safety net,' court hears
“Somebody besides me needed to know something bad was happening,” Rotenberry testified Thursday.

The FBI agent, she said, promised to alert a counterpart in Canada about the situation.

After the text exchange with Coleman, Rotenberry said she was cut off from contact with her sister, who failed to respond to any of her messages.
--------------------------------

So happy the sister contacted the FBI

-------------------------------------

An aside...
The criticism of the PM meeting with the Boyle family.
What the sister is testifying to happened prior to the Boyles meeting with PM Trudeau on Dec 19, 2018

Once the meeting was made public, by JB posting photos to twitter, there was a tremendous amount of criticism towards the PM regarding, not only that there was a meeting but that there was a criminal investigation into JB and that he should have never gotten close to the PM.

Now more light has been shed on that with what the sister testified to, she contacted the FBI in November 2018 alerting Canadian officials

COMMENTARY: Decision to allow Trudeau-Boyle meeting defies all logic and common sense
COMMENTARY: Decision to allow Trudeau-Boyle meeting defies all logic and common sense

All of this(criminal charges) is said to have occurred between Oct. 14 and Dec. 30. The meeting between Trudeau and Boyle took place on Dec. 19, so presumably during the late stages of the police investigation. It is inconceivable that the RCMP officials responsible for the safety and security of the prime minister and his family would not have known about this investigation. That, coupled with what was already known about Boyle’s checkered past, makes the decision to green light this meeting completely and totally baffling.

 

[otto]

Boyle Trial: Caitlan Coleman's worried sister warned the FBI to prepare a 'safety net,' court hears

Boyle Trial: Caitlan Coleman's worried sister warned the FBI to prepare a 'safety net,' court hears
“Somebody besides me needed to know something bad was happening,” Rotenberry testified Thursday.

The FBI agent, she said, promised to alert a counterpart in Canada about the situation.

After the text exchange with Coleman, Rotenberry said she was cut off from contact with her sister, who failed to respond to any of her messages.
--------------------------------

So happy the sister contacted the FBI

-------------------------------------

An aside...
The criticism of the PM meeting with the Boyle family.
What the sister is testifying to happened prior to the Boyles meeting with PM Trudeau on Dec 19, 2018

Once the meeting was made public, by JB posting photos to twitter, there was a tremendous amount of criticism towards the PM regarding, not only that there was a meeting but that there was a criminal investigation into JB and that he should have never gotten close to the PM.

Now more light has been shed on that with what the sister testified to, she contacted the FBI in November 2018 alerting Canadian officials

COMMENTARY: Decision to allow Trudeau-Boyle meeting defies all logic and common sense
COMMENTARY: Decision to allow Trudeau-Boyle meeting defies all logic and common sense

All of this(criminal charges) is said to have occurred between Oct. 14 and Dec. 30. The meeting between Trudeau and Boyle took place on Dec. 19, so presumably during the late stages of the police investigation. It is inconceivable that the RCMP officials responsible for the safety and security of the prime minister and his family would not have known about this investigation. That, coupled with what was already known about Boyle’s checkered past, makes the decision to green light this meeting completely and totally baffling.

The sister contacted FBI in November, Trudeau made time for the family on December 19 when he had a political storm brewing in his cabinet. It seems possible that he didn't know anything about it. Even if he did know about it, maybe he didn't think that the FBI would pursue a domestic violence case in a foreign country, or he assumed innocent until proven guilty. Anything is possible.

 

[bears10]

My understanding is that the children were in the room with the ailing mother and taking meals with her, and she was expected to look after them and entertain them while she was sick. That is quite different from a visit.

I don’t find it odd that a woman who was just released from captivity was caring for her children while in the hospital. I don’t know what her “ailments” were but likely the nurses just assumed the kids did not want to be away from their mother after what they went through, and vice versa.