Canadian hostage, wife & children freed from Afghanistan, husband arrested for abuse, Oct 2017 #2

[otto]

I don’t see where her mother asked him to give her medication. It says her mother was questioning if CC needed medication, not that her mother asked him to force her to take 3 trazadones.

Maybe, as the person who felt solely responsible for looking after his family during 5 years of captivity, he thought it was his responsibility to provide the medical care recommended by her mother.

Boyle is obviously not a normal person after 5 years of captivity. Neither is his wife. Her mother suggested that she needed to be medicated. It was not his idea, but he did what her mother thought was best. It's a mess, but is it criminal?

 

[otto]

Gotcha. as a US citizen, if I just was released from years of captivity, I would have absolutely no problem high tailing it to Canada if that was my first option to get back to America. That being said, by your logic, Caitlin is from the US, so why would she want to go to Canada?

The family chose to return to Canada rather than the US.

 

[human]

Gotcha. as a US citizen, if I just was released from years of captivity, I would have absolutely no problem high tailing it to Canada if that was my first option to get back to America. That being said, by your logic, Caitlin is from the US, so why would she want to go to Canada?

Because Canada has all kinds of benefits the US does not have.

 

[otto]

Because Canada has all kinds of benefits the US does not have.

That, and he did not want to land in the US because he was worried that he would be arrested due to his previous marriage.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Maybe, as the person who felt solely responsible for looking after his family during 5 years of captivity, he thought it was his responsibility to provide the medical care recommended by her mother.

Boyle is obviously not a normal person after 5 years of captivity. Neither is his wife. Her mother suggested that she needed to be medicated. It was not his idea, but he did what her mother thought was best. It's a mess, but is it criminal?

He forced his wife to take an overdose of a prescription medication which is specifically known to cause respiratory arrest and seizures in excessive amounts. He is responsible, not her mother.

 

[human]

That, and he did not want to land in the US because he was worried that he would be arrested due to his previous marriage.

For what reason would he be arrested?

 

[flute4peace]

Maybe, as the person who felt solely responsible for looking after his family during 5 years of captivity, he thought it was his responsibility to provide the medical care recommended by her mother.

Boyle is obviously not a normal person after 5 years of captivity. Neither is his wife. Her mother suggested that she needed to be medicated. It was not his idea, but he did what her mother thought was best. It's a mess, but is it criminal?

He forced his wife to take an overdose of a prescription medication which is specifically known to cause respiratory arrest and seizures in excessive amounts. He is responsible, not her mother.

I take Trazadone as a sleep aid, so if he gave her triple the rx dosage I tend to agree with you.

 

[bears10]

Because Canada has all kinds of benefits the US does not have.

She was not a citizen at the time as far as I know, so how would she have access to benefits?

 

[otto]

He forced his wife to take an overdose of a prescription medication which is specifically known to cause respiratory arrest and seizures in excessive amounts. He is responsible, not her mother.

He told her to take 3 pills, meaning somewhere between 150 and 300mg.

Three pills is neither an overdose nor lethal:

"Desyrel (trazodone) is an antidepressant that increases serotonin activity in the brain. Trazodone is used for depression, anxiety, sleep and pain. Trazodone is not considered to be habit forming but should be taken exactly as prescribed by the doctor. Trazodone is available as 50 mg or 100 mg tablets.
...

It may take up to two weeks before you notice a response. A daily dose of trazodone may range from 150 to 375 milligrams."​

Trazodone (Oleptro) - Side Effects, Dosage, Interactions - Drugs
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/joshua-boyle-wife-coleman-testimony-april-2-1.5081992

 

[otto]

For what reason would he be arrested?

No idea. He and his wife were a bit crazy after 5 years of captivity and refused a flight to the US. It wasn't just that they preferred Canada.

 

[otto]

She was not a citizen at the time as far as I know, so how would she have access to benefits?

Canada would extend free health care benefits to a kidnapping victim's kidnapped family. Would the US?

 

[otto]

I think it's a good thing that this is trial by judge alone. A jury might overlook some important information such as:

• this couple is experiencing extreme PTSD
• they practiced bondage during sex and there was an instance where she did not consent
• he was not violent prior to their travels
• he was brutalized during captivity
• he was aggressive, controlling and irrational after returning home from 5 years of captivity
• the 3 antidepressant pills that he gave her are not an overdose
• the pills were recommended by her mother
• he cannot be judged in the same way as those who did not experience 5 years captivity
• international custody is a factor
• domestic violence as a factor of PTSD should be explored

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Maybe, as the person who felt solely responsible for looking after his family during 5 years of captivity, he thought it was his responsibility to provide the medical care recommended by her mother.

Boyle is obviously not a normal person after 5 years of captivity. Neither is his wife. Her mother suggested that she needed to be medicated. It was not his idea, but he did what her mother thought was best. It's a mess, but is it criminal?

Is this a jury trial? Because I don’t think you could find 12 people to believe that (or a judge, for that matter).

ETA - I see it’s not. Either way, I can’t see anyone buying this as “he was just doing what her mother thought was best.”

 

[nuff]

This is an interesting UK case - relevant because "coercive control" (which has been accepted as a defence against murder in at least one previous British case) describes, IMO, precisely the hold that Boyle exercised over Coleman, before, during and after their captivity. (Otherwise, why did she go to Afghanistan against her own wishes?) Woman who killed husband has murder conviction quashed

 

[flute4peace]

"otto, post: 14970521, member: 2182"]I think it's a good thing that this is trial by judge alone. A jury might overlook some important information such as:

• this couple is experiencing extreme PTSD <<<probably but explaining his behavior doesn’t excuse it >>>
• they practiced bondage during sex and there was an instance where she did not consent <<<No means no. Every time. If she didn’t consent and he did it anyway, that’s rape. Every time.>>>
• he was not violent prior to their travels <<<irrelevant. A crime committed for the first time is still a crime>>>
• he was brutalized during captivity <<<then he should be well aware of how it feels to be brutalized >>>
• he was aggressive, controlling and irrational after returning home from 5 years of captivity <<<Right. He was. Which led to his violence toward her>>>
• the 3 antidepressant pills that he gave her are not an overdose. <<<Definition of overdose from medlineplus.gov medical encyclopedia: An overdose is when you take more than the normal or recommended amount of something, often a drug. Overdose: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia >>>
• the pills were recommended by her mother <<<Is her mother a physician with access to her medical history/charts?>>>
• he cannot be judged in the same way as those who did not experience 5 years captivity <<<the law is the law>>>
• international custody is a factor <<<why?>>>
• domestic violence as a factor of PTSD should be explored <<<completely agree! But it doesn’t excuse the behavior, nor decrease the criminality of it. To do so would negate years of progress in the protection of women from domestic violence.>>>

My comments/responses inside the <<<>>>s. I guess I’m having trouble understanding why the defense of this man. A monster who has PTSD is still a monster. His victims deserve nothing less than the full extent of the law provides.

 

[flute4peace]

His children are in the US. He will have difficulties visiting his children if he has a criminal record.

Sucks for him. Just like it does for any other criminal. He should have thought about that before he broke the law.

 

[Bravo]

Sucks for him. Just like it does for any other criminal. He should have thought about that before he broke the law.

Not to mention he is not fit to be around his Children IMO

 

[otto]

• this couple is experiencing extreme PTSD <<<probably but explaining his behavior doesn’t excuse it >>>
• they practiced bondage during sex and there was an instance where she did not consent <<<No means no. Every time. If she didn’t consent and he did it anyway, that’s rape. Every time.>>>
• he was not violent prior to their travels <<<irrelevant. A crime committed for the first time is still a crime>>>
• he was brutalized during captivity <<<then he should be well aware of how it feels to be brutalized >>>
• he was aggressive, controlling and irrational after returning home from 5 years of captivity <<<Right. He was. Which led to his violence toward her>>>
• the 3 antidepressant pills that he gave her are not an overdose. <<<Definition of overdose from medlineplus.gov medical encyclopedia: An overdose is when you take more than the normal or recommended amount of something, often a drug. Overdose: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia >>>
• the pills were recommended by her mother <<<Is her mother a physician with access to her medical history/charts?>>>
• he cannot be judged in the same way as those who did not experience 5 years captivity <<<the law is the law>>>
• international custody is a factor <<<why?>>>
• domestic violence as a factor of PTSD should be explored <<<completely agree! But it doesn’t excuse the behavior, nor decrease the criminality of it. To do so would negate years of progress in the protection of women from domestic violence.>>>

My comments/responses inside the <<<>>>s. I guess I’m having trouble understanding why the defense of this man. A monster who has PTSD is still a monster. His victims deserve nothing less than the full extent of the law provides.

I understand this perspective, but Canadian law does in some instances consider circumstances that may create a reduced responsibility for behaviour. For example, women who murder their children are so unusual that the murder is typically viewed as a mental health issue and "disturbed mind" rather than criminal intent.

"The law was adopted in Canada in 1948 because juries were refusing to convict mothers of murdering their own children. Infanticide was introduced as an alternative charge with softer sentencing.

"The penalties usually aim towards supporting and assisting the mother as opposed to punishing her," Gordon said. The maximum sentence for infanticide is five years, but no conviction in Canada has resulted in a jail term longer than one year. There is no minimum sentence.
...

"It is an attempt to recognize the fact that in the post-partum period there's a great deal of disturbance in the chemistry of the mother that's given birth," he said. "As a result of that, her mind may be disturbed."​

What separates infanticide from murder charges?

Boyle's actions are not a result of a bad childhood or propensity toward criminal activities, they are most likely influenced by 5 years of psychological torture. I think it has to be taken into consideration that his anti-social behaviour occurred directly after release from captivity. I'm wondering why better supports were not in place to ensure that the family was able to better assimilate back into society. If found guilty, a psychiatric ward is where he can heal.

The alternate perspective is that he alone is responsible for his decisions and actions regardless of 5 years of torture.

 

[bears10]

I understand this perspective, but Canadian law does in some instances consider circumstances that may create a reduced responsibility for behaviour. For example, women who murder their children are so unusual that the murder is typically viewed as a mental health issue and "disturbed mind" rather than criminal intent.

"The law was adopted in Canada in 1948 because juries were refusing to convict mothers of murdering their own children. Infanticide was introduced as an alternative charge with softer sentencing.

"The penalties usually aim towards supporting and assisting the mother as opposed to punishing her," Gordon said. The maximum sentence for infanticide is five years, but no conviction in Canada has resulted in a jail term longer than one year. There is no minimum sentence.
...

"It is an attempt to recognize the fact that in the post-partum period there's a great deal of disturbance in the chemistry of the mother that's given birth," he said. "As a result of that, her mind may be disturbed."​

What separates infanticide from murder charges?

Boyle's actions are not a result of a bad childhood or propensity toward criminal activities, they are most likely influenced by 5 years of psychological torture. I think it has to be taken into consideration that his anti-social behaviour occurred directly after release from captivity. I'm wondering why better supports were not in place to ensure that the family was able to better assimilate back into society. If found guilty, a psychiatric ward is where he can heal.

The alternate perspective is that he alone is responsible for his decisions and actions regardless of 5 years of torture.

RBBM. I thought Canada had all of these abundant resources available for this family? /s

 

[otto]

RBBM. I thought Canada had all of these abundant resources available for this family? /s

What do you mean - that Canada has so much knowledge and experience with treating victims of torture that nothing can go wrong?