Canadian hostage, wife & children freed from Afghanistan, Oct 2017 #1

[Lilibet]

I keep wondering if this is a case of Red Chief?

(The Ransom of Red Chief by O Henry)

MOO

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

:silly: POST OF THE DAY, WEEK, MONTH....!!!!! :floorlaugh:

Chinacat you absolutely nailed it!!! I had to go find the story and read it. What a treat and so applicable to JB’s captivity and release IMO. I’ve linked the pdf below.

Briefly: Two bumbling criminals hatch a plot to kidnap the son of a small town important citizen for $2000 ransom. The trouble is, the kid loves camping out in the cave, talks constantly, insists on having his way, is physically abusive, doesn’t want to go home and drives them nuts. When the father refuses to pay the ransom, but says he will take the kid off their hands if they pay him $250 they jump at the chance. Ironically, not getting the ransom prevents them from financing a scheme that would have hurt many people.

Five years of JB would drive his captors bonkers and I suspect they’d accept any terms to get rid of him and his family.

Nicely done chinacat! And thanks for the great story.

https://dwcaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Henry_Red_Chief.pdf

 

[MsFacetious]

I suspect that Boyle’s concern about being arrested or held for questioning by the U.S. is based on his own internal reality, paranoia, persecution complex, or delusions rather than an external, rational reason. However, if he did something in Afghanistan or plans to do something in the future and has reason to believe someone tipped off the U.S. then he may be paranoid for a reason, even if the U.S. doesn’t know anything and doesn’t care about his past.

He almost seems determined to oppose the U.S. on some level, rather than expressing gratitude for his rescue. Does it bother him that he was rescued thanks to U.S. intelligence? Is the U.S. the enemy in his mind? Was he influenced by his captors’ beliefs?

US State Department officials were on the plane with them. Boyle gave the AP a handwritten statement expressing disagreement with US foreign policy. "God has given me and my family unparalleled resilience and determination, and to allow that to stagnate, to pursue personal pleasure or comfort while there is still deliberate and organized injustice in the world would be a betrayal of all I believe, and tantamount to sacrilege," he wrote. He nodded to one of the State Department officials and said, "Their interests are not my interests."

http://www.newser.com/story/250061/rescued-hostage-has-harsh-words-for-us-interests.html
BBM

This is UNBELIEVABLE to me.
This is like if you are in a natural disaster and a national guard member shows up to rescue you.
This guy would say "I'm sorry, I'm a pacifist and have no interest in associating with you."
How UNGRATEFUL can you possibly be?!
How about you wait until the plane LANDS before insulting your rescuers? :facepalm:

This shows that Joshua Boyle has a sympathetic confidante within ISIS. His ex-wife and her huge family are Al-Qaeda. Joshua has many reasons to fear being detained by the US government.

Perhaps if he's so scared he should STOP TALKING. :gaah:

What did Joshua Boyle mean when he said that if the Taliban does not give him“justice” for his kidnapping, he will “turn to other outlets to seek justice"? What other outlets does Joshua Boyle have? Does he have terrorist friends in "high places" that will avenge his kidnapping?

I'm sorry but this actually made me laugh. I highly doubt this man has any friends in high places. I think most people probably can't stand him. He strikes me as the type who might "appear" to have friends in high places, but in all reality... does not. :twocents:

I believe her Mom has been to see her, as reported upthread yesterday? I suspect she may not want to see her Dad, since he has spoken out so forcefully against her husband. Or JB has made it clear he’s not welcome. Or they’ve decided to tread lightly. Or all of the above.
JMO

I admit I posted before reading the last page. I try not to, really I do. However, it was 4am! Once I fell down this rabbit hole I couldn't climb back out. :gaah:

I had only seen where her Dad said they wouldn't be going to Canada. That's what I was referencing. I am glad her Mom has seen her now. I would feel better if they were in the US though.

 

[Datchery]

I can say with 100 % certainty that if I had, G-d forbid, been in this kind of situation, my parents would have been waiting for me when the plane landed. No matter how much they hated my spouse, no matter what arguments we may or may not have had, they would have been there -- even if I was so far gone psychologically that I asked them not to be. And that's even without considering the children.

It is mystifying to me that both of CC's parents weren't rushing to her side immediately, and the fact that her father apparently wasn't planning to visit is mind-boggling. There's got to be a lot more history here than we're aware of.

 

[Fire Dragon]

I admit I'm being ghoulish and voyeuristic, but what a fascinating story.

She certainly deserves privacy. But she needs to empower herself and be responsible. She was doing just fine at privacy until this new "Boyle Family" email.
I wish her the best. Safety and security. A renewed relationship with her own family.

 

[Fire Dragon]

I suspect that Boyle’s concern about being arrested or held for questioning by the U.S. is based on his own internal reality, paranoia, persecution complex, or delusions rather than an external, rational reason. However, if he did something in Afghanistan or plans to do something in the future and has reason to believe someone tipped off the U.S. then he may be paranoid for a reason, even if the U.S. doesn’t know anything and doesn’t care about his past.

Agreed.

My speculation:
• He felt like a big deal before and wants to be a bigger deal now.
• Too arrogant to be a spy. And a spy for whom?
• He was planning to write something and needed boots-on-the-ground, like a war correspondent.
• He believed travelling with a pregnant women was a good cover and a means of entré and carte blanche, safe passage, and all that. People tend to be contentious and solicitous with pregnant women in every society and culture.
• He didn't expect to be captured.

The statement passed to an AP reporter is incomplete and out of context. It started with:
"My priorities cannot be limited to my family's circumstance, nor to other Canadian or American citizens in trouble abroad, nor any other narrow focus."

"God has given me and my family unparalleled resilience and determination, and to allow that to stagnate, to pursue personal pleasure or comfort while there is still deliberate and organized injustice in the world. It would be a betrayal of all I believe, and tantamount to sacrilege."


In other words, God has given him a noble and heroic calling. He can't betray God's directive. His interests are holy, while government interests are not.

 

[Fire Dragon]

The Taliban statement has also been reported incomplete.

“Similarly the murder of a child is also a baseless allegation although during a period of detention an incident did take place when the woman became ill. The area was remote, no doctors were present and due to this severe condition, the woman had a natural miscarriage of a girl. No one has either intentionally murdered the child of this couple and neither has anyone violated or defiled them.”
“If (Allah forbid) there was a plan for such a thing, they would not have returned home with their three children. The enemy should not portray the Mujahideen in their own image as the entire humanity is ashamed of the inhumane barbarity of Americans carried out against prisoners in Bagram and Guantanamo.”

KHAAMA PRESS

 

[human]

Yes!!! I agree with all of this!!! I think he thought he would be welcomed into the Taliban especially with his past connections in his first marriage. He certainly has delusions of grandeur! I hope Canada allows interrogation by international/US terrorist specialists. Hopefully he's being watched and his virtual communication is being monitored. I'm not sure any terrorists want him on their team, but they could certainly use him for their gain.

Would divorce make him popular? Isn’t divorce about not getting along? Doesn’t divorce divide families?

 

[Lilibet]

Agreed.

My speculation:
• He felt like a big deal before and wants to be a bigger deal now.
• Too arrogant to be a spy. And a spy for whom?
• He was planning to write something and needed boots-on-the-ground, like a war correspondent.
• He believed travelling with a pregnant women was a good cover and a means of entré and carte blanche, safe passage, and all that. People tend to be contentious and solicitous with pregnant women in every society and culture.
• He didn't expect to be captured.

The statement passed to an AP reporter is incomplete and out of context. It started with:
"My priorities cannot be limited to my family's circumstance, nor to other Canadian or American citizens in trouble abroad, nor any other narrow focus."

"God has given me and my family unparalleled resilience and determination, and to allow that to stagnate, to pursue personal pleasure or comfort while there is still deliberate and organized injustice in the world. It would be a betrayal of all I believe, and tantamount to sacrilege."


In other words, God has given him a noble and heroic calling. He can't betray God's directive. His interests are holy, while government interests are not.

Thanks for adding the beginning of JB’s note to AP. It wasn’t quoted in its entirety in the link I used in my post upthread. That link also said the note expressed disagreement with U.S. foreign policy, but didn’t quote anything about that...unless “deliberate and organized injustice in the world” is only coming from the U.S. foreign policy in JB’s view.

http://www.newser.com/story/250061/rescued-hostage-has-harsh-words-for-us-interests.html

Yes, JB obviously feels called by God to do something about “deliberate and organized injustice in the world” at the cost of his own comfort and his family’s, I assume. But what exactly does he intend to do? Jihad? And if so, define Jihad...

[FONT=&quot]According to a [/FONT]Gallup[FONT=&quot] survey, which asked Muslims in several countries what [/FONT][FONT=&quot]jihad[/FONT][FONT=&quot] meant to them, responses such as "sacrificing one's life for the sake of Islam/God/a just cause" and "fighting against the opponents of Islam" were the most common type in non-Arab countries (Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, and Indonesia), being given by a majority of respondents in Indonesia.[/FONT][SUP][17][/SUP][FONT=&quot] In the four Arabic-speaking countries included in the survey (Lebanon, Kuwait, Jordan, and Morocco), the most frequent responses included references to "duty toward God", a "divine duty", or a "worship of God", with no militaristic connotations.[/FONT][SUP][17][/SUP][FONT=&quot] Gallup's Richard Burkholder concludes from these results that the concept of jihad among Muslims "is considerably more nuanced than the single sense in which Western commentators invariably invoke the term."[/FONT][SUP][17]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad[/SUP]

 

[momshrink]

Would divorce make him popular? Isn’t divorce about not getting along? Doesn’t divorce divide families?

I think it's very likely that divorce probably cut him out of the first wife's family. However, in his mind (which seems to be unlike anyone else's mind) I think he still saw himself as part of a family known to the Taliban. And I think he thought he'd be welcomed and held in high esteem.
His reality seems to be different than other people's.

And the Ransom of Red Chief was perfect!! I can see the Taliban kicking him out because he won't shut up!

Unfortunately, I think CC is under his spell. Clinically, I've worked with a lot of domestic violence victims and it's very hard for them to leave when there are children and when she has no job. For CC, JB was her only security and source of love and comfort during captivity. I do think he manipulates her and has likely been emotionally abusive. I don't have much hope of her leaving him.

I also wonder if JB refused to allow CC's father to visit her. JB can control who has access to the children, especially while CC is recovering. He controls who his family sees and who can talk to them. MOO

 

[Bellbaby]

First, I need to clarify that I am very, very suspect of anything related to JB due to all the points listed in this thread, his behavior, background history, inconsistencies in his story and timeline, the series of events, constant seeking of media attention, etc.

I do feel his wife and children are victims. I feel she has layers on layers of psychological issues due to captivity, and possibly domestic abuse related to him where held capture. IMO. I can see her being terrified, possibly raped, beat, concerned as a mother and him viewing himself as equal to the captors, trying to reason with them and asking her to work with him/them. JMO

First, the photo of her in the hospital - her eyes seem to be closed? Correct me if I'm wrong? She may be unaware the photo was taken?

For all my biased reasons above, I'm suspect of the statement "she" released. The wording, way it was written and being released over a series of emails makes me question if it is JB himself typing it. I have tried but cannot find other sources of her writing or speech, other than one proof of life video to attempt to compare.

https://amp.usatoday.com/story/787845001/

 

[Lilibet]

First, I need to clarify that I am very, very suspect of anything related to JB due to all the points listed in this thread, his behavior, background history, inconsistencies in his story and timeline, the series of events, constant seeking of media attention, etc.

I do feel his wife and children are victims. I feel she has layers on layers of psychological issues due to captivity, and possibly domestic abuse related to him where held capture. IMO. I can see her being terrified, possibly raped, beat, concerned as a mother and him viewing himself as equal to the captors, trying to reason with them and asking her to work with him/them. JMO

First, the photo of her in the hospital - her eyes seem to be closed? Correct me if I'm wrong? She may be unaware the photo was taken?

For all my biased reasons above, I'm suspect of the statement "she" released. The wording, way it was written and being released over a series of emails makes me question if it is JB himself typing it. I have tried but cannot find other sources of her writing or speech, other than one proof of life video to attempt to compare.

https://amp.usatoday.com/story/787845001/

Yes, you raise good points on your post. I’ve wondered too whether he wrote the emails allegedly from Caitlan, but attributed to “the Boyle Family.” It’s hard to tell from the wording.

I figured she closed her eyes because she didn’t want her picture taken. A lot of good that did! So it may be that she was just resting and didn’t know he took it. But she looks very resistant to me, with her arms folded and eyes closed, not even touching the child asleep next to her on the bed.

I’d love to be a fly on the wall when her mother tells her father about her visit to Caitlan.

 

[Fire Dragon]

They all deserve the benefit of a doubt. Him, too. Whatever his intent was, he wasn't there for five years by choice. I would expect anyone to be flaky after being released from captivity. How that might manifest, behaviors and actions, can't be predicted. You can see genuine relief in the Pakistan video. Regardless of purpose in going to Afghanistan, stuff got way out of his control.
He needs debriefing, real therapy with professionals, without delay. So does she, not together as a couple, but individually.

Today:
"We were able to teach Najaeshi a lot of history, some facts about nearly 100 countries around the world, and pretty much all of his elementary school math,” Boyle wrote. “He’s fantastic at adding, subtracting, knows his times tables up to 12, loves the abstract ideas he has of perimeters and areas from pseudo-measuring our cells."

All elementary school math. I don't know about that.

Before:
"he and Caity are educating the boys 'as best as the dire circumstances allow.' He goes on to brag about how Primus (who is roughly 4 years old) knows his times tables up to five times five, the taxonomic ranks (species, kingdom, genus, etc.) and even some Latin."

 

[Lilibet]

They all deserve the benefit of a doubt. Him, too. Whatever his intent was, he wasn't there for five years by choice. I would expect anyone to be flaky after being released from captivity. How that might manifest, behaviors and actions, can't be predicted. You can see genuine relief in the Pakistan video. Regardless of purpose in going to Afghanistan, stuff got way out of his control.
He needs debriefing, real therapy with professionals, without delay. So does she, not together as a couple, but individually.

Today:
"We were able to teach Najaeshi a lot of history, some facts about nearly 100 countries around the world, and pretty much all of his elementary school math,” Boyle wrote. “He’s fantastic at adding, subtracting, knows his times tables up to 12, loves the abstract ideas he has of perimeters and areas from pseudo-measuring our cells."

All elementary school math. I don't know about that.

Before:
"he and Caity are educating the boys 'as best as the dire circumstances allow.' He goes on to brag about how Primus (who is roughly 4 years old) knows his times tables up to five times five, the taxonomic ranks (species, kingdom, genus, etc.) and even some Latin."

I agree about the benefit of the doubt up to a point. Perhaps he was stupid, rather than purposeful. His decisions even before marrying Caitlan and traveling are questionable...flaky if you will. Captivity may have increased his mental issues, but marrying into an Al Qaeda family and taking a pregnant wife to an especially dangerous part of Afghanistan is not really something that makes me want to give him much benefit of the doubt. It certainly did get out of hand, and he should be both relieved and grateful to get out alive, but any reasonable person would have anticipated that possibility and avoided going there. This is why there is so much suspicion of him. He definitely needs debriefing by the government and professional counseling. I seriously doubt anyone as arrogant as JB will agree to either.

Just a heads up that when you quote a news article you need to provide a link. I think this is the link to the first quote, but I’m not sure about the second one. Interesting quotes. Thanks.

According to the article, Caitlan is very excited about being able to homeschool their children the way she and JB were, with field trips, etc.

http://www.newsweek.com/freed-taliban-hostage-caitlin-coleman-one-positive-capture-690371

 

[Fire Dragon]

Another detail misreported by Associated Press from Boyle's written note. The four-year-old boy was "the injured child" that needed medical care after the "gunbattle," not the newborn girl as reported extensively. (Boyle's airport press conference).

The note passed to AP reporter Martin Benedict said:
"Najaeshi is in the worst physical health in the family. Our Pakistani rescuers essentially had to forcefeed him, and initially believed he had been shot and was exsanguinating largely based on deathly appearance - and this medical intervention doubtless had to delay our return slightly."

I don't know what 'forcefeed' means, in terms of first-response medical attention in the field. They certainly did not hook up a feeding tube by the side of the road. Was he admitted to hospital somewhere?

If reports are accurate, the family was recovered late in the day Wednesday 11 Oct. (1900 hours) near the town of Kohat, transported by helicopter to US Embassy in Islamabad (about 115 miles). Pakistan video - clean, well-groomed, haircuts, beard trimmed, well-appointed surroundings - and photos outdoors in daytime. Could only have been Thursday, 12 Oct. Departed Islamabad Friday morning, 13 Oct. Arrived in Toronto through London Friday night, 16+ hours flight time. Doesn't appear there was a time that any family member was hospitalized.

A senior intelligence official in Islamabad told the Guardian that the Haqqani network had demanded a ransom of 15m rupees and the release of captives from Afghanistan in exchange for the family’s release.


3 million Pakistani rupees per family member = US$28,453. US$142,263 for the Boyles.

 

[Lilibet]

Another detail misreported by Associated Press from Boyle's written note. The four-year-old boy was "the injured child" that needed medical care after the "gunbattle," not the newborn girl as reported extensively. (Boyle's airport press conference).

The note passed to the AP reporter said:
"Najaeshi is in the worst physical health in the family. Our Pakistani rescuers essentially had to forcefeed him, and initially believed he had been shot and was exsanguinating largely based on deathly appearance - and this medical intervention doubtless had to delay our return slightly."

I don't know what 'forcefeed' means, in terms of first-response medical attention in the field. They certainly did not hook up a feeding tube by the side of the road. Was he admitted to hospital somewhere?

If reports are accurate, the family was recovered late in the day Wednesday 11 Oct. (1900 hours) near the town of Kohat, transported by helicopter to US Embassy in Islamabad (about 115 miles). Pakistan video - clean, well-groomed, haircuts, beard trimmed, well-appointed surroundings - and photos outdoors in daytime. Could only have been Thursday, 12 Oct. Departed Islamabad Friday morning, 13 Oct. Arrived in Toronto through London Friday night, 16+ hours flight time. Doesn't appear there was a time that any family member was hospitalized.

A senior intelligence official in Islamabad told the Guardian that the Haqqani network had demanded a ransom of 15m rupees and the release of captives from Afghanistan in exchange for the family’s release.
3 million Pakistani rupees per family member = US$28,453. US$142,263 for the Boyles.

BBM

The link to the Guardian article does not contain the statements I have bolded that you are quoting. Is this a video? As I mentioned, there need to be links for everything stated or quoted, otherwise it gets very confusing. Even if the link has been posted upthread, it’s helpful to repost it for our reference. Let us know if you need help posting links. Thanks!

I wondered what force-feeding meant too. I don’t think it’s possible to make sense of any timeline or information provided by Boyle. He is dramatic and unreliable as a narrator IMO.

$142,263 ransom might just about cover the expenses and trouble the Haqqani Network went to keeping the Boyle’s for 5 years.

 

[Fire Dragon]

The link to the Guardian article does not contain the statements I have bolded that you are quoting.

The words you bolded are my words, my comment. Not a citation. What's enclosed in quotation marks is quoted from Boyle's written statement passed to AP reporter Martin Benedict on the aircraft.

The citation from The Guardian and link is accurate.
I don't know what 'BBM' is.

 

[Lilibet]

The words you bolded are my words, my comment. Not a citation. What's enclosed in quotation marks is quoted from Boyle's written statement passed to AP reporter Martin Benedict on the aircraft.

The citation from The Guardian and link is accurate.
I don't know what 'BBM' is.

Hi,
BBM means “bolded by me.” I wasn’t referring to the Guardian link, only a link for the first two paragraphs I’ve bolded.

Sorry to be so persistent, but even in your first paragraph that I have bolded you are referencing and quoting from either a “note” JB gave to AP or their misreporting of the content. I don’t recall seeing the full text of the note or the report by AP, so that’s why I’ve been asking for a link so that we all can read it. Apologies if I’ve missed something along the line. Even if it’s been posted somewhere upthread, I need to refresh my memory.

Rule of thumb on Websleuths...only personal opinion doesn’t require a link. If someone asks for a link to support what you are stating, we have to provide it, even if it’s been posted before. Supporting our statements is how WS avoids promoting rumors. The rules and abbreviations can be a steep learning curve that we’ve all climbed and we’re happy to help. :seeya:

 

[Fire Dragon]

Original comment was edited with link to AP.

The phrases "injured child" and "gunbattle" are from Boyle's Toronto airport press conference, repeated by news media many times. No original source.
Enclosed in quotation marks is quoted from Boyle's written statement passed to AP reporter Martin Benedict on the aircraft. Source: AP Archives.

Another detail misreported by Associated Press from Boyle's written note. The four-year-old boy was the injured child that needed medical care after the gunbattle, not the newborn girl as reported extensively. (Boyle's airport press conference).

The note passed to AP reporter Martin Benedict said:
"Najaeshi is in the worst physical health in the family. Our Pakistani rescuers essentially had to forcefeed him, and initially believed he had been shot and was exsanguinating largely based on deathly appearance - and this medical intervention doubtless had to delay our return slightly."

The four-year-old boy. Not the newborn girl. Boyle said they thought he'd been shot and was bleeding to death. That was the point of the comment.

 

[Intermezzo]

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...ficial-account-of-her-rescue-in-pakistan.html OCT 23

In first sit-down interview, Caitlan Coleman tells of forced abortion, disputes official account of her rescue in Pakistan. OCT 23, 2017

“We were not crossing into Pakistan that day,” Coleman said on the grounds of an Ottawa hospital on Monday, and claims made by Islamabad and Washington that they were rescued Oct. 11 after crossing the border are false.

 

[bears10]

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...ficial-account-of-her-rescue-in-pakistan.html OCT 23

In first sit-down interview, Caitlan Coleman tells of forced abortion, disputes official account of her rescue in Pakistan. OCT 23, 2017

“We were not crossing into Pakistan that day,” Coleman said on the grounds of an Ottawa hospital on Monday, and claims made by Islamabad and Washington that they were rescued Oct. 11 after crossing the border are false.

Very interesting article, thank you for posting. Some things that stood out to me from the article...


Coleman said Monday that the forced abortion was in retaliation for Boyle’s refusal of Haqqani network efforts to recruit him. “They were very angry because Joshua had been asked to join them, to work for them, and he said no,” she said. “They killed her by dosing the food. They put massive doses of estrogen in the food.”

Snip

“Then we were moved to the north of Miran Shah, to the house of a man who said he was called Mahmoud. He was very nice to Najaeshi and would provide us with amenities we wouldn’t have otherwise,” she said. “He would take Najaeshi out to get him sunlight and nobody else did that at any other point.”

In 2014 and 2015, the family was moved often. It was during this time, Coleman says, she had the forced abortion and was raped.

Snip

Then they built a custom-built house for us. It was still close, in Spin Ghar. It was not good, not bad. It had problems, but no big problems … After that, we just stayed in a house for a short time, a day or two, because they were clearly running from something.

So the baby she was pregnant with when they first went to Afghanistan is the oldest boy and not the baby that died?? Idk, her story seems different than the way JB portrayed it IMO. It doesn’t seem like they were in dirt hole prison cells. Idk I have a lot to say but I’m on mobile and it keeps refreshing and I’m losing what I’m typing.