CASCU Analysis of Crime

[JMO8778]

It sounds to me like BR walked down at the end of the call..JR snapped at him,as he assumed Patsy had already hung up the phone..so therefore,they felt comfortable lying about that...b/c both of them were so uppity they just didn't realize everything didn't go according to plans..starting with BR getting up,and then having to be rushed back to bed.Just one of many Opps moments they had...like the pineapple,fiber evidence,etc.So they had no problem telling BR what to say b/c they didn't realize they'd been overheard.

 

[UKGuy]

This is the part that perplexes me. I have always assumed John knew everything well before the 911 call and maybe even had time to help with some revised staging of the body, but now Burke bothers me.

The 911 call is a very dangerous time for them. Plus the police will be arriving shortly thereafter. Why would Burke be there during the 911 call and then rushed to bed immediately thereafter. Why not delay the 911 call for five minutes, get Burke to bed, then call 911.

The only explanation I can come up with is that John was not 100% up to speed at that time. It could be argued that Burke walked in on the 911 call but John could have easily chased Burke back up the stairs without saying a word.

Then you add in the way John and Patsy acted that morning. Patsy doesn't seem to have any interest in any new information. Very strange for a mother who's daughter is missing. John's behavior is much different.

Albert18,

Nobody can demonstrate that the voice on the tape is actually Burke's or given that it is, just when the audio image was laid down, it may be a pror recording remnant?

Why would Burke be there during the 911 call and then rushed to bed immediately thereafter. Why not delay the 911 call for five minutes, get Burke to bed, then call 911.

Assuming Burke was there, then its possible he had heard all the commotion and arisen to investigate, hence the questions on the tape? Subsequently he was told to go back to bed pretend to be asleep, and await instructions?

That Burke is in bed pretending to be asleep while there is all the noise and movement around him, particularly when he knows he is due to fly that morning, strongly suggests he is simply playing a part in the staging, and it is similar to JonBenet's from the night before e.g. he is consigned to bed asleep!


.

 

[Ames]

It sounds to me like BR walked down at the end of the call..JR snapped at him,as he assumed Patsy had already hung up the phone..so therefore,they felt comfortable lying about that...b/c both of them were so uppity they just didn't realize everything didn't go according to plans..starting with BR getting up,and then having to be rushed back to bed.Just one of many Opps moments they had...like the pineapple,fiber evidence,etc.So they had no problem telling BR what to say b/c they didn't realize they'd been overheard.

I agree. I believe that he thought Patsy had already hung the phone up.

 

[Ames]

Albert18,

Nobody can demonstrate that the voice on the tape is actually Burke's or given that it is, just when the audio image was laid down, it may be a pror recording remnant?


Assuming Burke was there, then its possible he had heard all the commotion and arisen to investigate, hence the questions on the tape? Subsequently he was told to go back to bed pretend to be asleep, and await instructions?

That Burke is in bed pretending to be asleep while there is all the noise and movement around him, particularly when he knows he is due to fly that morning, strongly suggests he is simply playing a part in the staging, and it is similar to JonBenet's from the night before e.g. he is consigned to bed asleep!


.

Right on!! I believe that the voice on the tape was Burke's. He..like you said..heard all of the commotion, and got up to investigate. He was told to go back to bed, where he was a good boy, and did what his dad told him...and pretended to be asleep.

 

[BOESP]

Right on!! I believe that the voice on the tape was Burke's. He..like you said..heard all of the commotion, and got up to investigate. He was told to go back to bed, where he was a good boy, and did what his dad told him...and pretended to be asleep.

You know, it's always bothered me they didn't get Burke immediately and at least keep him within sight in the room where Patsy was. Most families of kidnap victims want the entire family gathered around, in view, so they can "protect" each other, especially the mother.

I have to wonder if sending Burke off with the Whites was not only to keep him from talking but to keep him from seeing what they knew would likely be coming ... JonBenet's body being found in the house.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

You know, it's always bothered me that they didn't get Burke immediately and at least keep him in within sight in the room where Patsy was. Most families of a kidnap victims want the entire family gathered around, in view, so they can "protect" each other, especially the mother.

There would be no way any of my children would leave my sight while a kidnapper has the youngest - and is threatening to cut her head off. I wouldn't let them out of sight for a long time afterwards, either, right down to tutors and home-schooling, if necessary.

I have to wonder if sending Burke off with the Whites was not only to keep him from talking but to keep him from seeing what they knew would likely be coming ... JonBenet's body being found in the house.

That's exactly what I think. They decided that Burke didn't need to be in the house at all when JonBenet's body was found. Why else would they send him off? That house was big enough, and there were enough adults milling about that someone could have gone with Burke to his room and kept him company, playing games or something - there was no need to have him risk being kidnapped or killed or JB being killed by sending him over to the Whites. They wanted him out of the house because they knew JonBenet was dead in the basement. They didn't even request a police escort, that's how confidant they were that Burke would be fine out of their presence.

 

[Rino]

I have to wonder if sending Burke off with the Whites was not only to keep him from talking but to keep him from seeing what they knew would likely be coming ... JonBenet's body being found in the house.

That makes a lot of sense. Therefore, the poor kid only goes on faith of what his parents told him. I have always had a hard time with believing he was involved in this

 

[Albert18]

So what you are saying, and I believe I have this correct, is that Burke being there during the 911 call is a problem. And the only way to make this work with the theory of John helping Patsy during the night is to assume Burke just happened to show up during the 911 call.

And the odds of this happening are good?

But yet you also say if they really thought JonBenet had been kidnapped, Burke should have been up and with them.

So the fact Burke was with them doesn't mean somebody in the house thought this might be real, it just means Burke got out of bed and showed up during the 911 call on his own?

I don't like the taste of that when I try to swallow it.

 

[BOESP]

That makes a lot of sense. Therefore, the poor kid only goes on faith of what his parents told him. I have always had a hard time with believing he was involved in this

At the very beginning, I must admit, I wondered if JonBenet received an accidental injury from horseplay with Burke, and John and Patsy were protecting him.

I now agree he was an innocent bystander doing what he was told to do, going on faith, like you said. It really is a pretty sad situation all the way around.

 

[Solace]

At the very beginning, I must admit, I wondered if JonBenet received an accidental injury from horseplay with Burke, and John and Patsy were protecting him.

I now agree he was an innocent bystander doing what he was told to do, going on faith, like you said. It really is a pretty sad situation all the way around.

I thought of that recently and I just think that injury is too severe. That is not a horseplay injury - it is one of rage. Total Anger.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Well, we only have the Ramsey family's account of what went on before the 911 call that morning to go on, and who knows if they're all telling the truth about Burke hearing anything? Who says Burke woke up to terror in his parents' voices? Maybe he woke up to anger - such as them arguing with each other over the events and calling police and friends. I think Burke heard commotion, and came to investigate, only to be sent back to his room and later told what to say to LE.

If John snapped at him on the 911 tape like they say, then it sounds like JR was already in a finicky mood and not up to dealing with anything but the matter at hand - notifying police there was an alleged kidnapping. Burke coming in and asking questions was not part of the Rs plan, so he needed to be silenced and sent back to his room so the adults can do what they need to do without a kid underfoot.

JR never behaved as if he thought this was a real kidnapping - he let hysterical-acting Patsy make the phone calls, he didn't tell her to tell police about the death threats, he didn't stop her from calling unnecessary people over despite threats, he didn't get his son up and question him on what he may have heard/seen that might answer who did this, he didn't keep his son next to him in case something should happen to Burke (who knows if the KN is still in the house or not? Your youngest was taken from her bed, how can JR be so sure he isn't lying in wait for Burke now?), and he thought nothing of the threat on JB's head or Burke's by sending Burke out to go to the Whites - with no police escort.

With all of that, I simply do not believe that JR wasn't aware that this wasn't an authentic kidnapping in any way, shape, or form. Either he knew, or he cares nothing about the safety of either of his youngest children.

 

[JMO8778]

You know, it's always bothered me they didn't get Burke immediately and at least keep him within sight in the room where Patsy was. Most families of kidnap victims want the entire family gathered around, in view, so they can "protect" each other, especially the mother.

I have to wonder if sending Burke off with the Whites was not only to keep him from talking but to keep him from seeing what they knew would likely be coming ... JonBenet's body being found in the house.

that's it,the purpose was twofold,IMO.

 

[JMO8778]

So what you are saying, and I believe I have this correct, is that Burke being there during the 911 call is a problem. And the only way to make this work with the theory of John helping Patsy during the night is to assume Burke just happened to show up during the 911 call.

And the odds of this happening are good?

But yet you also say if they really thought JonBenet had been kidnapped, Burke should have been up and with them.

So the fact Burke was with them doesn't mean somebody in the house thought this might be real, it just means Burke got out of bed and showed up during the 911 call on his own?

I don't like the taste of that when I try to swallow it.

the odds are good yes,Patsy making the hysterical phone call,near the time BR would have gotten up anyway,and why would he get sent back to bed if IR thought it was a true KN anyway?

 

[DeeDee249]

IMO BR did wake up because of all the commotion. Whatever it was. BOTH PR & JR knew this wasn't a kidnapping at the time of the 911 call. BR came downstairs to the kitchen (it is only 1 flight- the spriral stairs are not far from his room) because he heard his parents in the kitchen. It would likely only take a minute to get from his room to the kitchen- think how fast kids can run down a flight of stairs. He got to the room as PR was making the call- and was sent back to "bed" to keep him out of the way. Then, as soon as the "others" arrived he was sent off to the White's. To keep him from saying anything or from being questioned more than anything else.
Here's another thought about that- The Rs send their surviving child off without a worry to the Whites- but didn't the Whites remain at the R home? Who exactly was at the Whites watching their son (who supposedly could be in danger from the "kidnapper" as well)?
I know the Whites had guests for the Holidays, but since the Rs named everyone they ever knew in 3 states as possible suspects, why would they trust ANYONE with their son?
BECAUSE they knew they had nothing to fear from anyone else. They had seen the enemy- and the enemy was THEM.

 

[JMO8778]

IMO BR did wake up because of all the commotion. Whatever it was. BOTH PR & JR knew this wasn't a kidnapping at the time of the 911 call. BR came downstairs to the kitchen (it is only 1 flight- the spriral stairs are not far from his room) because he heard his parents in the kitchen. It would likely only take a minute to get from his room to the kitchen- think how fast kids can run down a flight of stairs. He got to the room as PR was making the call- and was sent back to "bed" to keep him out of the way. Then, as soon as the "others" arrived he was sent off to the White's. To keep him from saying anything or from being questioned more than anything else.
Here's another thought about that- The Rs send their surviving child off without a worry to the Whites- but didn't the Whites remain at the R home? Who exactly was at the Whites watching their son (who supposedly could be in danger from the "kidnapper" as well)?
I know the Whites had guests for the Holidays, but since the Rs named everyone they ever knew in 3 states as possible suspects, why would they trust ANYONE with their son?
BECAUSE they knew they had nothing to fear from anyone else. They had seen the enemy- and the enemy was THEM.

exactly...they weren't worried it was a guest from the White's that might have done it.
another thing that gets me is Patsy sitting in the sunroom...shouldn't she be afraid the SFF might see thru the windows and see everyone there?!Close all the blinds and cutains in the house! ..I'd be afraid of snipers.

 

[Solace]

exactly...they weren't worried it was a guest from the White's that might have done it.
another thing that gets me is Patsy sitting in the sunroom...shouldn't she be afraid the SFF might see thru the windows and see everyone there?!Close all the blinds and cutains in the house! ..I'd be afraid of snipers.

Or that the kidnappers were watching and now KNEW that the Ramseys had called their friends. But John in DOI has the audacity to say, he thought the police would have been more discreet. I think he lends about one sentence to this and leaves it very quickly.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

It's difficult for the police to be discreet when they haven't even been told that there were death threats made on the kidnapping victim specifically stating that no one be called.

I wonder why JR isn't complaining about the Whites and Fernies and Rev Halverstock coming over in their cars. If he's distressed that the monitoring kidnapper might see the police cars, why isn't he distressed that the monitoring kidnapper will see his friends drive up and walk around the house, then go in and stay for a while?

He just threw that in to imply police messed up and not him. The Rs should absolutely have told the 911 operator about the death threats if anyone is called, as well as not called over four or five other people.

They both knew that ransom note was bogus before they called 911.

 

[Solace]

It's difficult for the police to be discreet when they haven't even been told that there were death threats made on the kidnapping victim specifically stating that no one be called.

I wonder why JR isn't complaining about the Whites and Fernies and Rev Halverstock coming over in their cars. If he's distressed that the monitoring kidnapper might see the police cars, why isn't he distressed that the monitoring kidnapper will see his friends drive up and walk around the house, then go in and stay for a while?

He just threw that in to imply police messed up and not him. The Rs should absolutely have told the 911 operator about the death threats if anyone is called, as well as not called over four or five other people.

They both knew that ransom note was bogus before they called 911.

You are right. So there goes the theory that John didn't know what was going on when he woke Burke. This means that he is putting on a show specifically for Burke or else Burke is told to lie. So what do you think?

I cannot see them telling Burke anything - he is too young to be sure he would not screw up. Beyond that, John is not going to tell Burke what is going on, he would terrify him. So I can only conclude that John is putting on a show for Burke?

 

[JMO8778]

It's difficult for the police to be discreet when they haven't even been told that there were death threats made on the kidnapping victim specifically stating that no one be called.

I wonder why JR isn't complaining about the Whites and Fernies and Rev Halverstock coming over in their cars. If he's distressed that the monitoring kidnapper might see the police cars, why isn't he distressed that the monitoring kidnapper will see his friends drive up and walk around the house, then go in and stay for a while?

He just threw that in to imply police messed up and not him. The Rs should absolutely have told the 911 operator about the death threats if anyone is called, as well as not called over four or five other people.

They both knew that ransom note was bogus before they called 911.

one leads to the other,IMO.they needed the friends to provide a buffer bet. them and police,so they couldn't tell LE to lay low and not say the same to their friends.And they esp. needed to get BR out of the house b/f the body was found,and so that he wouldn't be asked any questions.(I know he was anyway,but they had no way of knowing that).But the bottom line is they couldn't say one thing to LE and the other to their friends..or the friends might not have shown up at all.They couldn't risk that.They needed them.
And then there's the fact that JB will be 'beheaded' if they talk to LE or even a stray dog..so....they've effectively covered all bases w the phone calls and not telling everyone to lay low.

 

[rashomon]

Rash,

I left a message for you on the thread SBTC I think on CrimeLibrary - I think it was Athena who said if someone could prove that there were fibers from John's shirt in JonBenet's underwear, that would do it for me.

Rash, this is your forte. You know the whole deal with Levin asking about it and how a lawyer cannot fabricate. The woman needs to know the truth.

Solace, I did post about it on the Crime Library JBR board a while back, but the question is whether convinced IDIs really want to know the truth.

Lawyers are bound by stricter rules than the police.

the Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct state: Rule 4.1 Truthfulness in Statements to Others "In the course of representing a client a lawyer shall not knowingly: a) make a false or misleading statement of fact or law to a third person; or(b) fail to disclose a material fact to a third person when disclosure is necessary to avoid assisting a criminal or fraudulent act by a client, unless disclosure is prohibited by Rule 1.6.

Lawyer Bruce Levin's 'client' here was the people of the Untited States - he acted 'on behalf of the Unites States, together with lawyers Michael Kane and Mitch Morrissey. Levin himself had been at the CBI lab to get he report.
Not only would it have been a violation of professional conduct for Levin to lie to John Ramsey about incriminating fiber evidence against him - it would also have been stupid and risky: for suppose it had come to trial, the prosecution would have to put their 'fiber evidence cards' on the table. What would have happened if Levin & Co had made it all up: the Ramsey defense would have a had a field day with that non-existing fiber evidence - this could have blown the whole trial apart.

The incriminating fiber evidence against the Ramseys has always been a thorn in the IDIs' side, which is why they try to attack it. Either they claim that the fibers didn't exist, or they play it down by alleging that, since Patsy and John lived there, of course fibers from their clothing would be found.
But the issue is where exactly those fibers were found. They were found in locations directly associated with JonBenet's violent death. This is what makes the fiber evidence against the Ramseys so damaging.

jmo