CASCU Analysis of Crime

[Nuisanceposter]

then why send him back to bed?and why lie about it later?JR should have wanted him close by,to keep him safe..not in his room alone. and no,they didn't ask if he'd seen or heard anything during the night..he was sent right to the White's after getting up,(once LE arrived and the R's showed them he was in bed)...and without police escort or supervision.that makes no sense at all.

Exactly. If JR is under the impression that his daughter is gone because a beheading SFF is holding her, then I do not believe he would allow Burke to go anywhere where he wasn't personally able to watch over his son's safety. Certainly not without a police escort, which he wanted for himself when the family left hours later that day. I also don't believe he wouldn't have read the note all the way through before allowing Patsy to arrange a morning tea party, completely blatantly disregarding the death threats in the RN.

Both JR and Patsy behaved as if they knew the RN was bogus from the second they called 911.

 

[rashomon]

JMO8778,

Sure thats me not casku.


Seems logical that JonBenet should have been dumped outside her house, nobody who commits a homicide wishes to be directly linked to the body.

Who knows what JR's reasoning was but you may be correct, more so if he did wipe JonBenet down with his shirt.


IMO, John is not going to wipe JonBenet down with his shirt. Excuse me, but he is not an idiot. There were a few fibers on her. Any defense attorney could argue that he played with JonBenet and very likely hugged her during the day and transferred fibers from his shirt onto her and when she went to the bathroom, she transferred the fibers herself.

But either way, he is not going to wipe her down with his shirt. He is not a stupid man. Just mo.

John's shirt fibers (black wool) were found in the crotch area of JB's underwear, but in all probability she had been wiped down with another piece of cloth, fibers of which were also found in her genital region (blue cotton fibers consistent with a washcloth or towel). [Source: Bonita papers].
Solace, I agree with you that John would not have used his shirt to wipe JonBenet down. But the fibers might have gotten there as he was helping Patsy to stage the scene, putting the fresh size 12-underwear on JonBenet.

 

[JMO8778]

good thought rash..if he leaned over her,like to get the underwear or to deal with the garotte or something,maybe that got them stuck there.

 

[JMO8778]

Exactly. If JR is under the impression that his daughter is gone because a beheading SFF is holding her, then I do not believe he would allow Burke to go anywhere where he wasn't personally able to watch over his son's safety. Certainly not without a police escort, which he wanted for himself when the family left hours later that day. I also don't believe he wouldn't have read the note all the way through before allowing Patsy to arrange a morning tea party, completely blatantly disregarding the death threats in the RN.

Both JR and Patsy behaved as if they knew the RN was bogus from the second they called 911.

yes,and if it so happened he hadn't read the note all the way thru by the time Patsy hung up,he would have caught that very shortly afterwards and called back to tell them to **lay low,as 'there are threats being made to my daughter's life if they see you coming!!!'

 

[rashomon]

My assumed sequence of events is:
1. Manual strangulation
2. Head fracture
3. Cleanup and Staging
4. Ransom note authored
5. Vaginal wound.
6. Cleanup and redressing
7. Ligature strangulation
8. Wine-cellar Staging

UKGuy,
In your sequence of events, why do you think the vaginal wound (#5) was inflicted?

 

[rashomon]

When told about the nightgown, John replied that it "wasn't supposed to be there". That's his exact words. I think what he meant by that, was he didn't realize it was there, it wasn't supposed to be there, because it wasn't part of the crime scene staging.

OMG, what a slip-up on John's part!!
For if it had been a real kidnapping gone bad, I can't imagine that a parent would have theorized which items were supposed to be found near the victim or not. For the parent could simply not know what a kidnapper (or intruder/sexual predator) would do or not do.
But John Ramsey knew what had been done. By Patsy and him when they staged the scene. The nightgown got there by accident - it was not supposed to be there.
jmo

 

[Toltec]

Patsy slips up here when questioned...

I ran upstairs, and I think - I think - I - I can't remember if - I think asked him to check on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the phone, trying to - and then I looked down and John came down...and he kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his underwear, and read the papers on the floor right there....

So we have John checking on Burke...then Patsy sees Burke by the phone...then walks in John...

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy slips up here when questioned...

I ran upstairs, and I think - I think - I - I can't remember if - I think asked him to check on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the phone, trying to - and then I looked down and John came down...and he kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his underwear, and read the papers on the floor right there....

So we have John checking on Burke...then Patsy sees Burke by the phone...then walks in John...

Toltec,

Patsy could say she was refering to John as the person who was at the phone?


.

 

[UKGuy]

OMG, what a slip-up on John's part!!
For if it had been a real kidnapping gone bad, I can't imagine that a parent would have theorized which items were supposed to be found near the victim or not. For the parent could simply not know what a kidnapper (or intruder/sexual predator) would do or not do.
But John Ramsey knew what had been done. By Patsy and him when they staged the scene. The nightgown got there by accident - it was not supposed to be there.
jmo

rashomon,
Is he not simply stating the obvious e.g. the barbie gown should be upstairs, the words he uses are not quite incriminating enough for me?

Maybe he thinks it be on JonBenet's back not on the floor?


.

 

[Solace]

John's shirt fibers (black wool) were found in the crotch area of JB's underwear, but in all probability she had been wiped down with another piece of cloth, fibers of which were also found in her genital region (blue cotton fibers consistent with a washcloth or towel). [Source: Bonita papers].
Solace, I agree with you that John would not have used his shirt to wipe JonBenet down. But the fibers might have gotten there as he was helping Patsy to stage the scene, putting the fresh size 12-underwear on JonBenet.

Rash,

I left a message for you on the thread SBTC I think on CrimeLibrary - I think it was Athena who said if someone could prove that there were fibers from John's shirt in JonBenet's underwear, that would do it for me.

Rash, this is your forte. You know the whole deal with Levin asking about it and how a lawyer cannot fabricate. The woman needs to know the truth.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
Is he not simply stating the obvious e.g. the barbie gown should be upstairs, the words he uses are not quite incriminating enough for me?

But then he could have said the same of the blanket, for the blanket should have been upstairs too. A blanket from JB's room is not "supposed to be there" either in a dank and dirty cellar room.

Maybe he thinks it be on JonBenet's back not on the floor?

No crime scene pictures could be taken of JonBenet's body in the wine cellar, since John carried her upstairs immediately after "finding" her.

 

[Ames]

Now wait a minute.

This was not a small 3 bedroom ranch where Burke could stumble out of his bedroom and be in the kitchen in a couple of steps.

So at this ungodly hour, Burke happens to wake up, he goes downstairs, it just happens to be when Patsy is making the 911 call, and John knows Patsy is making a phone call that could change their lives and he doesn't stop Burke and make him go back upstairs? Now that is a leap. I don't like leaps.

If he had just wandered downstairs, why lie about it?

I am sure that John and Patsy were running around like two chickens with their heads cut off. And Patsy was probably, shouting..."OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD! WHAT HAVE WE DONE?!" Something to that effect. I am SURE there was screaming going on, just like they both said in their interview...but, I don't think that it was because they were frantic because they couldn't find JB, and that she had been "kidnapped"....it was because they KNEW that they were in a heap of trouble, and they were in a panic mode. And THAT'S what woke Burke up....he admitted that he heard voices......SURE he DID, and voices wasn't ALL he heard.

 

[Ames]

Toltec,

Patsy could say she was refering to John as the person who was at the phone?


.

Yeah, I agree. I believe that she was referring to John being at the phone.

 

[Ames]

rashomon,
Is he not simply stating the obvious e.g. the barbie gown should be upstairs, the words he uses are not quite incriminating enough for me?

Maybe he thinks it be on JonBenet's back not on the floor?


.

But, she wasn't put to bed wearing the Barbie Nightgown, so why would he think that it should be on her back??

And if he was simply stating the obvious...e.g. the barbie gown should be upstairs...then why didn't he say that about the blanket? Or better yet...his daughter "wasn't supposed to be there" either....but, she was. And like Rash said, how would HE know what the intruder intended to do and not do. How did HE know that the "invisible intruder" didn't MEAN to leave that Barbie nightgown there, beside of JB's body?? He didn't know...UNLESS of course, there was no intruder...and the nightgown got caught up in the blanket that was in the dryer, and they came out together. That would be MY guess.

 

[Omega]

Has it actually been proven that you can hear Burke's voice in the 911 tape, or is that still speculation? I remember reading on this forum a couple of years ago that someone was trying to get hold of a copy of the tape to get it analysed. Did that happen?

 

[Omega]

Now wait a minute.

This was not a small 3 bedroom ranch where Burke could stumble out of his bedroom and be in the kitchen in a couple of steps.

So at this ungodly hour, Burke happens to wake up, he goes downstairs, it just happens to be when Patsy is making the 911 call, and John knows Patsy is making a phone call that could change their lives and he doesn't stop Burke and make him go back upstairs? Now that is a leap. I don't like leaps.

If he had just wandered downstairs, why lie about it?

How about this.

Burke was up because somebody got him up. The simpliest explanation tends to be the best.

Why would somebody have gotten him up? Why would they then say he wasn't up?

Maybe because the situation was evolving very rapidly that morning?

I don't think it would be that strange that Burke would be up at this time. According to JR in his interview, Burke knew he had to be up at 5.30:

JR: Uh, Yeah he always like to put a pitch in for a movie or something, but I’m almost certain he went right to bed because it was by then, it was beyond when he went to bed anyway because he knew we had to get up at 5:30 a.m., so he went right to bed.

The 911 call was made at 5.52, so it really wouldn't have been unusual for Burke to wake up at 5.48, for example, look at the clock (did he have one in his room?), wonder why he hadn't been woken up and go down stairs to see what was going on.

 

[DeeDee249]

There were several major slip-ups by the Rs. And I can't believe no one in LE ever caught them,

JR's statement about the Barbie nightgown "not supposed to be there"
PR's statement about her hearing JR scream from the basment while she was screaming for him that morning (no wonder BR woke up)(quote:I hear myself scream and then I hear John scream from the basement)
PR mentioning JR being on the phone when she "noticed" JBR wasn't in her room and BEFORE the 911 call. (I mean, who could he have possibly been calling at that hour when the R team wasn't called untill after the 911 call)
PR stating they didn't MEAN for this to happen. Parents of child kidnap/murder victims don't MEAN for it to happen.

As far as BR waking up/being woken up- remember the parents likely WERE screaming or yelling or talking loudly in a panic mode. I doubt if the voices he heard were whispering or speaking softly.

And about the fibers- I have read various places that the fibers found imn the panties/genital area were dark blue. JR's bathrobe that was found hanging on a railing that morning was dark blue.

 

[Ames]

There were several major slip-ups by the Rs. And I can't believe no one in LE ever caught them,

JR's statement about the Barbie nightgown "not supposed to be there"
PR's statement about her hearing JR scream from the basment while she was screaming for him that morning (no wonder BR woke up)(quote:I hear myself scream and then I hear John scream from the basement)
PR mentioning JR being on the phone when she "noticed" JBR wasn't in her room and BEFORE the 911 call. (I mean, who could he have possibly been calling at that hour when the R team wasn't called untill after the 911 call)
PR stating they didn't MEAN for this to happen. Parents of child kidnap/murder victims don't MEAN for it to happen.

As far as BR waking up/being woken up- remember the parents likely WERE screaming or yelling or talking loudly in a panic mode. I doubt if the voices he heard were whispering or speaking softly.

And about the fibers- I have read various places that the fibers found imn the panties/genital area were dark blue. JR's bathrobe that was found hanging on a railing that morning was dark blue.

I totally agree. The screaming and running through the house is what woke Burke up.

 

[UKGuy]

John's shirt fibers (black wool) were found in the crotch area of JB's underwear, but in all probability she had been wiped down with another piece of cloth, fibers of which were also found in her genital region (blue cotton fibers consistent with a washcloth or towel). [Source: Bonita papers].
Solace, I agree with you that John would not have used his shirt to wipe JonBenet down. But the fibers might have gotten there as he was helping Patsy to stage the scene, putting the fresh size 12-underwear on JonBenet.

rashomon,

Its not how they arrived upon JonBenet's genitals that is important but that they are there at all!

They place John at the crime-scene when he said he was sleeping upstairs.

.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
In your sequence of events, why do you think the vaginal wound (#5) was inflicted?

rashomon,

The vaginal wound is either a sexual assault gone wrong, or a staged sexual assault.

I've placed it as No. 5. in the sequence since this fits a staged assault.

Equally it could have placed at No. 1. in the sequence to represent a sexual assault gone wrong, followed by JonBenet screaming and her killer compressing her throat to silence her?


.