Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1

[OneLostGrl]

Russell-

Your good cop, bad cop scripts are just what the police needed to do with both Casey and her mother ages ago! Though I don't think it is too late for the game to begin with Cindy as long as they stick mainly to "good cop". IMO Yuri was doing well, he was on his way so to speak with her.

Please don't stop sharing your thoughts because some have not been happy with them. I "got" what you meant about unconditional love and though I do not agree with everything you wrote you have some great thoughts and gave me much to think about. I also think much of what you said may have been taken wrong.. misread, though obviously not on purpose.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Last night I was listening (not watching) to NG . I heard Cindy speaking in an interview and thought it was Kc talking. I had to do a double take when I realized it was Cindy not Kc speaking. The wording, inflections and mannerisms took me off guard. At this point I am seeing Kc in Cindy and Cindy in Kc.

I think these interviews were important in a way for people to see why Casey was so afraid of her mothers reaction to Caylee being "missing". I don't know if Casey knows who she is without their enmeshment.

Very sick and twisted this family.

 

[ArtichokeHeart]

**Warning...super long post ahead...skip if you're short on time**

I actually typed this up weeks ago, but it was such a long post that I decided to save it and maybe post it later if I found a good spot for it, so here it is:

Cindy and Casey's Relationship

My take on Cindy and Casey's relationship. Please note that this is all purely my own personal, completely non-professional opinion. I would love to have some input/feedback (professional and otherwise) to either corroborate or correct my perceptions.

Cindy is highly intelligent and dynamic. There's no doubt she loves Caylee with all her heart and has been beyond good to her, possibly even too good, as I suspect was the case with Casey all her life (and would have likely ended up being the same with Caylee as she grew up, too).

Cindy will give Casey the benefit of the doubt as far as it can possibly be extended, even when all others see through it, and even when her own intelligence and logic tell her otherwise. Then, when it's just impossible to continue to deny the obvious, she goes into cover-for/justify/must-save-Casey-from-herself mode in an attempt to make everything okay. She'll go to extreme lengths to do so, too.

Others around her realize this but are powerless to stop it and, because Cindy's very persuasive and forceful, they may even be sucked into it themselves. I feel this may be the case with George -- he may not necessarily agree with Cindy but goes along anyway because she controls him with her forceful personality and knows how to work and persuade him, so that he not only simply goes along with her, but actually comes to believe himself that she is correct. And, of course, I'm sure he follows her lead at times simply because he knows it's useless not to, and knows that his life will be hell if he doesn't capitulate.

I am sure there is a huge deal of denial involved for Cindy (on several levels) in trying to deal with Caylee's disappearance/death and Casey's involvement. But I think it's more than denial and enabling of Casey. In terms of Cindy's relationship with Casey, specifically, she is far more than just the typical enabler.

"Emotional incest" (sounds awful, but there's nothing sexual or nasty about it, just the term that's used) can be a situation where an enabler does for another (in just about every way you can imagine) to the point that they ensure the other person is an emotional and psychological cripple who is unequipped to handle life and responsibility and is totally dependent on the enabler's constant help and rescuing -- they simply can't function without their enabler holding them up, cleaning up their messes, saving them from themselves.

(By the way, I don't know what technical terms might be used for the people involved, but I'm calling them "enabler" and "dependent".)

On the face of it, it looks like the enabling person is extremely loving, bending over backwards to help the dependent person. In fact, though, it is the enabler's needs that are being met at the expense of the dependent person.

This is only my layperson's opinion based on personal experience -- it has happened with two very close family members. I spoke to a therapist about it a while back because it concerned me greatly. I wanted to know what I could do to help (basically, refusing to participate, enable or facilitate the behavior was the short answer).

That was several years ago and I have tried many times since to intervene and help this family member realize what she's doing to her grandson. All to no avail. It continues to this day and he's in his early 20s, about the same age as my own son. I can see him at 40 yrs old in just the same situation so long as she's alive.

Now, I admit that I am guilty of being a doting mother myself -- maybe even a little bit overly so -- but even I can plainly see the damage she's done to this child, who really is so good at his core -- highly intelligent, with so much potential. But the grandma has ensured that he is totally inept to handle even everyday things. Believe me, your jaw would drop to the floor if I told you the extent of the enabling, fetching, pampering, covering for, excusing and lack of responsibility/consequences.

Now that he is an adult, it's becoming more and more difficult for the enabler to control him in the same way or to save him from the consequences of his actions that she once could explain away with, "Well, he's just a child." I fear so much that his life is forever ruined unless he can get away from that environment. He has been spared every consequence, rescued every time by his grandmother. He's depressed, has drifted towards drugs and, although he could charm the socks off of you in a casual setting, he has a horrible time having any sort of meaningful relationships.

Interestingly, like Casey, he is a habitual liar. I would even go so far as to call it pathological. He lies about things that don't matter -- sometimes elaborately so. A lot of people think his lies are bravado, bragging -- he really tries to play up his worth and achievements by lying about himself to try to make others think more of him.

The truth is, thanks to grandma, he has little to no self esteem, no confidence in himself. He feels incompetent and inadequate to be worthy of anyone thinking well of him. So he tries to make himself appear to be something he feels others would admire. Now, I have no idea whether the lying is a byproduct of the emotional incest relationship or unrelated...but I thought it worth noting that he, too, is a habitual liar. On a grand scale.

It's all really so pitiful. I have to just stand by and watch his life going down the drain. I've tried to talk to him as well, and though he confides that he knows he needs to get out of the situation, he continues it, not doing a thing to break free. He is not receptive to counseling at all. Breaks my heart. I love him so much and even though I get angry at him for his behavior, I know where it has come from and feel very sorry for him at the same time.

He has to be the one to break out of this, but the grandmother raising him has ensured he's not equipped to deal with any sort of responsibility or make it on his own out in the "real" world. The way she came to be in the position of raising him from about age 13 yrs on -- even though his own mom is one of the best you could imagine -- is really bizarre and a result of this component of the grandmother's personality by which she feels she must control everyone and everything (especially this young man...and grandma's poor husband).

To her, she believe it's a matter of "nobody can love him more/do better for him than I can" psychological makeup. (I wonder if Cindy was this way about Caylee, too.) The grandma believes she's doing what is best for her grandson, but she has absolutely ruined this beautiful boy's life. I have to wonder if at least part of Casey's issues result from this type of situation as well.

The therapist said that the person creating the emotional incest relationship truly loves the dependent person and thinks they are doing the right thing, being extra loving and supportive, doing everything in their power to do, do, do for the dependent person. But it is really not about giving of themselves at all.

It's a means of controlling another person to ensure they never lose them. Toward that end, the enabler creates a situation wherein they will always be needed in a major way. As a result, the person on the receiving end usually is irresponsible, impulsive and not very empathetic towards others -- in fact, it can be a very narcissistic type of selfishness with no empathy for anyone else. As they've learned all their lives, the world revolves around them and things can always be fixed for them if they goof up.

While it seems it's all about unhealthy attention on the dependent person, it's more involved than that -- it all comes together in such a way that the ultimate result is that the dependent person is beholden and responsible for meeting the unhealthy emotional needs of the enabler; if they don't go along with the program, they're responsible for making the parent/enabler unhappy, so they continue in whatever role has been created for them.

The dependent may realize things just aren't right -- might even try to rebel and become verbally or physically abusive towards the enabler, or act out on someone else. But the enabler will play the role of martyr to the hilt and reel the dependent person back in. The dependent person, even though they may be unaware of it, feels obligated to continue to meet the needs of their enabler because the person has been so "good" to them, done so much for them, saved them over and over again. It's all they know and they act accordingly by feeding the enabler's need to be needed.

The therapist went into some stuff about how this type of relationship can horribly affect relationships with the opposite sex and with friendships of both sexes. They can be very promiscuous, jump in and out of relationships, many times expecting that person to do for them as the enabler has done, and have problems when that doesn't happen. Some may practically throw themselves at a romantic interest in a desperate need to be valued and loved.

On some level, they resent what the enabler's done to them and they might play out in another relationship what they're unable to play out with the enabler, even becoming abusive with it. Others may just shut off completely, not ever allowing anyone in close enough to have any power to affect their emotions. Regardless, everything is all about them at all times -- both in their way of thinking and in their reality, thanks to the enabler.

That therapist had some real interesting thoughts on the gender stuff, but it's been so long that I just can't remember all that he said. I hope I got the part I did remember correct. I do know the gist of it was that the dependent person is all but guaranteed to have severe problems in both romantic and friend relationships.

Oh...something else I remembered. He said that the enabler/adult will tend to latch on to one person (usually a child) to focus this unhealthy attention on, even if there are several other children in the family, and that in turn causes hard feelings from the other siblings towards the "chosen one". It affects the dynamics of the entire family.

In the eyes of the enabler, the chosen one can do no wrong whatsoever. If anyone dares suggest otherwise, they are seen as attacking and "against" or even "jealous" of the dependent person. So the enabler turns on that person, all the more determined to protect the dependent from anyone who would dare think he could be less than perfect.

He told me this it is very difficult for a professional to get through to someone like this, much less for a relative and layperson like me to make a difference (although I sure have tried). It's a very stressful and sad thing to watch happen.

I want to be sure I get this next part right, but I don't remember for certain, so corrections are welcome. He told me that often the dependent person will be or become bipolar and/or suffer from borderline personality disorder. I can't remember if he told me whether that kind of relationship actually caused those conditions, but I'm pretty sure he did.

I remember him mentioning the term "sociopath," and I think I recall the context being, in essence, that sociopathic criminals are sometimes a product of this type of extremely destructive relationship/upbringing. They don't have a good sense of the real world because they've never been made to live in it (instead, living in the consequence- and responsibility-free world the enabler has created, which doesn't resemble real life at all). They are so self-centered that they just don't care about anything except getting what they want.

Unfortunately, the young man in my family has been diagnosed at different times as being bipolar and/or having borderline personality disorder. And I absolutely blame his grandmother completely for it. It just breaks my heart to pieces. He's an adult and I can't force him into therapy, and she is STILL doing this to him (or "for" him, as she'd see it) -- even though he's a grown man, about Casey's age.

So as sad as this case is because of precious little Caylee, it saddens and frightens me for another reason. I could see my own family member getting that far out of control, unwilling to answer to anyone for anything he does, just waiting for it to blow over, as usual, after his grandma fixes it for him. Scary thought.

The reason I have shared this is for the sake of awareness. I see so much of my own family members in what I've gleaned of Cindy and Casey's relationship. The similarities are just overwhelming to me.

Regardless the correct terminology for this type of relationship ("emotional incest" is the term the therapist used, so that's what I've called it), I want to literally BEG of you -- if you can see yourself or loved ones in a situation like my family members or the one between Cindy and Casey, please, PLEASE do something to stop it if you possibly can. Believe you me, the longer it goes on, the worse it gets and the harder it is to break away from it.

It's hard to intervene because the outward appearance is that the enabler is a super kind, loving person, doing all they can for someone (and they do genuinely, deeply love the dependent person, but in an inappropriate and uhealthy way). The enabler can't accept that they're doing anything wrong. They're just trying to "help" or "love" -- I've given him everything I've got, they'll say.

You may look like a heel to those who aren't fully aware of the situation when you step in and suggest the enabler back off just a little and let the person become more responsible for themselves. But you can't just stand by and let something so wrong go on without doing a thing.

And that type of relationship definitely IS wrong. It's abusive! "Emotional incest" is far more than simply being overly doting or a case of a parent whose child can do no wrong....it's a very insidious, unhealthy, sick thing and can and will ruin a child's life forever.

I would love to have everyone's input. My knowledge is based only on family experience and what the therapist explained to me. I'm sure I might not have remembered or understood it all perfectly and would welcome clarification/correction from those who know more than I do.

I would also be interested to see if Cindy's brother, Rick (should he be lurking and reading) or perhaps Jesse's dad (since he seems to know the dynamics of the family), would feel this destructive relationship of "emotional incest" applies to Cindy and Casey. From afar, it sure seems that way to me. Not that any of it would excuse anyone's behavior in any way, but perhaps it might be helpful in understanding how things came to be and why some behaviors continue?

I am also curious, for anyone who agrees this situation might be the case for Cindy and Casey, what might have caused the enabler (Cindy) to be the way she is to begin with. Thanks for your thoughts!

I am so glad you posted this. I have been trying to post similiar information but you have said it much better than I.

It is so obvious Cindy turned to lies to get her daughter's favor back and in the bond hearing she made a powerful impact upon Casey with Casey crying and realizing her mother was all she had and to what lengths she would go for her.

As long as Cindy keeps this up Casey is sure to remain the worlds most prolific lier and unforgivable thief. And as long as Cindy threatens her with her demise if she knows Caylee is dead we will never know what happened unless by some miracle of forensics.

My little insight regarding the making of Cindy is due to her religious upbringing and the values placed on her in order to be called a woman. Her identity as martyr is asll wraped up in this. I think deep down Cindy suffers from a vast emptiness that she must cover up by taking over the lives of others.

She has no real love for Casey. Her relationship is based on need and fantasy fulfillment. Look how we found out more info on Caylee from Casey's boyfriend than from either Casey or her mother. Caylee is all about them. No mention ever of her personality..only appearance and what Cindy haws done for her.

Thanks again. I too want for a way society can recognize this crime early on and provide some line of help.

Casey's friends advised Casey to get help back in high school. Casey's mother has never sought any help for daughter. Isn't that as serious as not providing medical help?

What might help Cindy is some woman's org grouptherapy. But only if they recognize all the signs of her wrong doing.

 

[ArtichokeHeart]

Sherbie-

That is a refreshing take on this subject. And very insightful IMO. I know a bit about "psychobabble" and most everything said about Casey and Cindy has been nothing more than cliches IMO. Thank you for taking the time to put together such a thoughtful analysis.

I have a question for you. What do you make of the fact that Cindy allegedly told one of Casey's friend that Casey is a "sociopath"?

How or does this fact fit in with the dynamic you write about?

I too would like to hear from Sherbie if she already hasnt answered.

My own take on this based on some personal experience is that Cindy needs Casey. She knows her problems or character and she wants Casey all to herself. It is her 'cause celabre'...her reason to live. She says these things to Casey's boyfriends not to warn them but to tell them to lay off. She has trained Casey to be the way she is and deep down she knows it. Why else does she wanit for these opportune times to tell them? She threw Casey under the bus to Jesse and after he stood up to her she discouraged Casey from seeing him and now wants to blame him.

Sociopath to Cindy means prime bait on a hook. Casey can't possibly have a successful relationship but she can use men and she can get pregnant.

Cindy can also get sympathy and praise for being such a devoted mother with a scoundrel of a daughter. Look at all she has done for her....just like she wrote in her letter on her website. Oh poor me I have done everything for my daughter and look how she treats me. Does she mention that everyday she also told Casey she was a terrible mother who made a mistake and that Caylee was her mistake? That is hitting below the belt and playing pretty dirty IMO.

 

[ArtichokeHeart]

I agree with this! George always has to look perfect. Perfect hair, ironed shirts and shorts. There are so many dynamics going on in this family! I agree with your assessment! Good stuff!

From 3hat i understand, i think it was Lee who said it George is a neat freak. He used to work as a car salesman and loves to do detail work. He cleans the car out every weekend because he loves doing it. So he is not just being bossed around by Cindy. But he may be contributing to Casey's excessive consideration of her own image and control of those messy emotions.

 

[Tate]

Future: I really like your posts. Very informative. However, I did want to point out that anti-social (or sociopathic, psycopathic) personality disorder is listed in the DSM IV as a "mental disorder". It is thought to be somewhat treatable now with a combination of medication and intensive psychotherapy, although I'm not very confident about the success of such treatment. (My source is psychiatric evaluations of opposing parties in custody cases I have litigated). But, it is a diagnosable disorder that is treated by psychiatrists. I think most of us realize that casey, no matter what is "wrong" with her, does not fit the category of not guilty by reason of insanity, because she knew what she was doing and knew it was wrong. But, one can be mentally ill without being legally insane. There are tons of mentally ill people in prison who were rightfully convicted - the illness does not usually clear one from responsibility in any way. That said, I'm still trying to figure out if a mental condition or disorder falls under the umbrella of "mental illness".

Hmm... it is? I've always heard that sociopaths are incurable and untreatable... :waitasec:

 

[OneLostGrl]

Hmm... it is? I've always heard that sociopaths are incurable and untreatable... :waitasec:

They are.

Just to be clear, I myself do not think Casey is a "Sociopath".

 

[Tate]

They are.

Just to be clear, I myself do not think Casey is a "Sociopath".

So what would be your diagnosis? Of Cindy as well?

 

[ArtichokeHeart]

It's quite obvious she isn't depressed in the least.. let alone severely. Depression does not look like this, trust me.

No, but by her handwriting analysis she has very low self esteem, which she overcompensates for.

 

[OneLostGrl]

So what would be your diagnosis? Of Cindy as well?

It's not that easy.. it's not so black and white for me. They both have obvious personality disorders but I don't think we can point at any single one.

I think Casey feels.. she was feeling in that interview with the police when she said she was terrified of her mothers reaction to her daughter being gone. That was real.

 

[OneLostGrl]

No, but by her handwriting analysis she has very low self esteem, which she overcompensates for.

Which goes along with Personality disorders..

 

[ArtichokeHeart]

Casey called 911 last night to protect her parents. She sounded scared at around 3:00, when she says "both of my parents were hit..." Did anyone hear it that way? I listened to the audio many times and I think she really does sound upset or frightened that her parents could be hurt. I was taken aback and felt badly for her-- Did anyone else feel this way?

Casey is a bit changed right now. Changed in that she now realizes how far her mother will go to defend her. Her mother is all she has and they are a bit more chummy.

Casey may also like being the sole center of attention now

 

[OneLostGrl]

Casey is a bit changed right now. Changed in that she now realizes how far her mother will go to defend her. Her mother is all she has and they are a bit more chummy.

Casey may also like being the sole center of attention now

I think she has always been attached to (protective of) her mother. There is a love/hate thing there but the love always wins with both of them and they both know it now, you are right!

 

[ArtichokeHeart]

I see a lot of NPD behaviors in GA, CA, and kc. NPD is a personal disorder, NOT a mental disease. Many N's also have behaviors associated with other personality disorders. (co-morbidity)

OCD, BPD, and PPD behaviors are commonly seen along with the NPD traits.

Heres an interesting article about the emotional immaturity of the NPD, and how their behavior is similar to a 6 year old child.

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/six.html

This gives me the chills................

Having a narcissist for a mother is a lot like living under the supervision of a six-year-old. Narcissists are always pretending, and with a narcissistic mother it's a lot like, "Let's play house. I'll pretend to be the mother and you pretend to be the baby," though, as the baby, you'll be expected to act like a doll (keep smiling, no matter what) and you'll be treated like a doll -- as an inanimate object, as a toy to be manipulated, dressed and undressed, walked around and have words put in your mouth; something that can be broken but not hurt, something that will be dropped and forgotten when when something more interesting comes along.

You have just described my mother.

 

[raregem]

:waitasec:ArtichokeHeart- do you have more insights on Kc's handwriting -analysis?
You sure have given me food for thought regarding Ca and Kc's relationship. Thx.

WebSleuthers-
Regarding tonights episode of NG - LP stated CA had her hands around Kc's throat and that is what pushed Kc out the door. He said CA was angry about the stealing and CA had not ever treated Kc this way before. Kc was terrified. He said LA could verify his statements. Any insights?

 

[ArtichokeHeart]

.....won't be hard to convince anyone of that. She should be institutionalized for the rest of her life.[/QUOTE]

Why? She is only 22. She has never had a real life of her own apart from her mother. Never made any independent decisions other than stealing and dancing. We don't know the ties that are keeping her dependent and a co-spirer. I think there is co-dependency between Casey and Cindy.

Aging itself often brings changes to the mind. being locked up isn't going to give her much opportunity to develop. it is quite posible she can become a functioning responsible citizen. Nor is there any proof that she murdered her child.

When the chloroform thing came up I was like Oh my gosh she did it. But then I saw the link to one of her boyfriend's computer where he had this pic up about chloroform and sex. So it could well be possible she was looking into that. Her father knew all about chloroform for cleaning cars....so Caylee is dead. It is still not murder.

I think Yuri did a better job on her than any shrink will ever do.

When she turns thirty she may become much more self aware and able to control herself especially if treatment whether in jail or in a hospital has gotten her to face reality. Forty would be the longest...let her out at Fortyon probation. Beyond that there is not much point. And give her some job training so she can be self sufficient.

I dont want to hear this stuff about how she took a life so now she must pay with hers. Life doesn't work that way.

 

[ArtichokeHeart]

I find it interesting that Casey can call 911 to report a problem outside her home but neglected to every call 911 the entire time her child was missing. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-casey1908sep19,0,7734566.story

That speaks volumes to me on her method of thinking.

There was noting in it for her. Her child was dead or gone. Nothing could bring her back. She didn't want to face her mother.

On the other hand now she needs her mother...her whole life now rests on her.

 

[txsvicki]

I think these interviews were important in a way for people to see why Casey was so afraid of her mothers reaction to Caylee being "missing". I don't know if Casey knows who she is without their enmeshment.

Very sick and twisted this family.

I know people can hear and interpret things differently, but I didn't see any fear of Cindy at all in that interview. To me, Casey answered the detectives questions about fearing Cindy more than Caylee being gone, and Casey answered No, that Cindy has already told her that she'd never forgive her, but that she's "absolutely" petrified of never seeing Caylee again. It all sounded so phony, but Casey was very organized and answered all his questions very alertly and quickly.

 

[ArtichokeHeart]

I just finished reading the Lake Vaj "cliff notes". Taking those together with the Jesse Grund interview/s on Geraldo, the picture painted of Casey by these 2 fellas who know her seems VERY DIFFERENT from the analyses and thoughts we've all been coming up with here onsite. They tell of her being a sweet, smart, nice girl who did NOT do drugs (and got upset if someone was smoking weed), who drank very very little, who was a good friend to her friends and got along well with people. Neither Jesse nor Exit13 (Lake Vaj thread) knew her as a "pathological liar", either.

If she killed Caylee, it really is sounding more and more to me like she had some kind of psychotic "break". For example, supposing she killed Caylee accidentally and can't accept it herself -- and the story she has told about the nanny is something she has pieced together that seems most believable to her. In any case, the behavior she has exhibited since mid-June seems to be pretty much out of character for her.

After reading the above two items, what does anyone else think?

not according to the recently released tape of Lee A who says she has always been a lier .."a diabolical lier" at that.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Why? She is only 22. She has never had a real life of her own apart from her mother. Never made any independent decisions other than stealing and dancing. We don't know the ties that are keeping her dependent and a co-spirer. I think there is co-dependency between Casey and Cindy.

Aging itself often brings changes to the mind. being locked up isn't going to give her much opportunity to develop. it is quite posible she can become a functioning responsible citizen. Nor is there any proof that she murdered her child.

When the chloroform thing came up I was like Oh my gosh she did it. But then I saw the link to one of her boyfriend's computer where he had this pic up about chloroform and sex. So it could well be possible she was looking into that. Her father knew all about chloroform for cleaning cars....so Caylee is dead. It is still not murder.

I think Yuri did a better job on her than any shrink will ever do.

When she turns thirty she may become much more self aware and able to control herself especially if treatment whether in jail or in a hospital has gotten her to face reality. Forty would be the longest...let her out at Fortyon probation. Beyond that there is not much point. And give her some job training so she can be self sufficient.

I dont want to hear this stuff about how she took a life so now she must pay with hers. Life doesn't work that way.

Very interesting, your mind. I'd love to pick it apart (not meant in a rude way)