Casey & Family Psychological Profile #10

[Woe.be.gone]

CA fits the description too. Yes she is more fluid but her goals seem to be those of a sociopath. One thing about a sociopath is that they seem totally 'regular' in everyday behavior. For instance CA's eye contact, body language seems 'normal' to me (not robotic or strange). KC seems to be 'off' in some ways.

Kirstie Alley plays a role in a movie called 'Family Sins" where it looks like she is a model citizen yet is guilty of heinous crimes. To strangers she is friendly - no one would ever guess what was going on inside her house. I saw the movie on TV and noticed it played again yesterday on Lifetime.

It's difficult to label who's what in the family because we have witnessed all of their lies, manipulations, coverups and lashing out at the wrong people, etc. I'm not saying KC couldn't be a sociopath, just that she may be the result of being the daughter of one or two for that matter. :waitasec: GA is a confusing character too imo. He may be the 'crazy maker' for all I know.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I think Cindy is Borderline http://www.outofthefog.net/Disorders/BPD.html too many traits to list here for Cindy....but its so her.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I think Cindy is Borderline http://www.outofthefog.net/Disorders/BPD.html too many traits to list here for Cindy....but its so her.

ITA about Cindy. I also see some borderline traits in Casey.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I wonder where Casey fits on Dr Stone's scale of evil ... maybe at 11? http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/most-evil/evil-scale/evil-scale.html

 

[Mrs G Norris]

ITA about Cindy. I also see some borderline traits in Casey.

Agree....def see some borderline traits in Casey....just noticed this graph at the bottom of the article with the crossover data....INTERESTING.

http://www.outofthefog.net/Disorders/BPD.html

 

[shivs]

Does anyone think George will ever crack? As in enough is enough.

If money was not a concern, I could see him leaving Cindy.

On the other hand I wonder if he could survive without her.

I wonder what is was like for Casey as a child. -shuder-

 

[Leila]

Good question!! I cannot read it though..... anyone???

I copied the picture and enlarged it as much as I could without it blurring, and I still can't make out what it says. It's two words thought.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Does anyone think George will ever crack? As in enough is enough.

If money was not a concern, I could see him leaving Cindy.

On the other hand I wonder if he could survive without her.

I wonder what is was like for Casey as a child. -shuder-

I personally think George will eventually either talk or kill himself. He's a loser but imo he has a conscience, unlike the rest of this "family".

 

[Snaz]

I personally think George will eventually either talk or kill himself. He's a loser but imo he has a conscience, unlike the rest of this "family".

This is my opinion, and mine only, but I do not believe for a second that George would ever kill himself.

I also don't believe he attempted suicide at the Hawaii Motel. Although, I guess you can commit suicide by pizza just as easily as human decomposition can smell like rotted pizza. People who truly intend to commit suicide do not text others first with their intentions... and then leave on their cell phones so the location can be tracked.

He is a coward, and if he and Cindy don't end up staying together, he will find some other loser to latch onto, with his poor, pitiful me, "my life has been under a microscope"....... that is, if he can get his gonads back from Cindy.

I do not feel one iota of sympathy for George. He had his chance to stand up for his murdered granddaughter, and he chose not to. That, to me, makes him lower than a snake's belly.

:twocents:

 

[Leila]

Hello WS :cool2:

I'm going to give you my train of thought because I don't know what I am getting at...

Other people have asked this question but: why didn't Casey get rid of Caylee in another manner? Why didn't she give her away?

Because Casey didn't want Cindy to "know"/be right that she was a bad mother. Plus, Cindy wouldn't have let Caylee be taken by another family. And Casey didn't want Caylee but she wanted Cindy to have Caylee even less.

I have wondered, why Casey didn't kill Caylee in more of a manner that would have lent to an "accident?" She could claim to be a grieving mother, get the sympathy and move on...I get that Cindy might have blamed her and still called her a bad mother for an accident, but Cindy was doing that anyway(calling her a bad mom) and again...make it an accident that could have happened to "anybody." Ya know?

What I think my mind is getting at, that I don't want to think about is this: maybe Casey killed Caylee in the manner that she did because she wanted to. I am starting to think that the duct tape and the trunk and the manner in which Caylee was disposed was exactly what Casey thought of Caylee.

I don't think I am the first to think this, but this is the first time I am thinking about this...

The idea that Casey did what she did to Caylee, in the manner that she did because she is a "spiteful *****" was said by Casey herself. I have been of the opinion that she did what she did to Caylee to spite Cindy but Cindy wasn't ever supposed to know about Caylee. Casey seemed like she was just going to go on keeping Cindy and George at bay, was she expecting George and Cindy to accept never seeing Caylee ever again?

After all of that...I still do not know why Casey killed Caylee. I mean I know...she wanted her freedom and she is a narcissist who can't share love or give love to others...

So, back to the "fight" Cindy and Casey had on the 15th. Yeah, there had to have been some things said between Cindy and Casey that led Casey to murder, in a most awful hateful way...Caylee Marie. Thinking about it now, Casey had to have wanted to murder Caylee, not just get rid of her. I agree with the opinion that Casey does not think too far ahead, she was mad at Cindy and hated her control and didn't love Caylee. She could have never loved Caylee to hurt her in that way. Obvious statement, sorry.

I really think this is why the State has the DP on the table. It's like Casey meant to hurt Caylee. Wanted to hurt her in that way. KWIM? Not just to spite Cindy, not just to get rid of her "burden" but also because she was mad at Caylee for even being born. It's like it just hit me that what she did, she did to CAYLEE.

We saw Casey's anger in the jail house video/visit and my guess is Caylee had been physically abused before, the kind of anger Casey vented onto Caylee during her murder did not just appear that day. There is evidence that Casey did searches on her computer that lead one to believe she had a plan to murder before she murdered.

So, Casey had premeditated killing(someone)maybe Cindy? Maybe George and Cindy? Maybe she did think of killing Caylee in a "better" manner, one that would keep Casey "innocent" but then Cindy upped the ante on the 15th, by maybe telling Casey "that's it, were filling for custody." ? Then, Casey had "no choice" as she was heading to stay at TL and he didn't want Caylee around and Casey chose to vent her rage on Caylee.

I am so ready to hear how the SA puts this together, and I am curious as to how a jury will rule in this case. (understatement of the last two years) :crazy:

Okay. Sorry, this is not a point...it is stuff I had to get out of my head. Thanks everyone.

:twocents:

I was reading this thread late last night and after I went to bed I thought about the possibility of prior abuse. I think it's likely there was abuse at times when Casey was alone with Caylee and didn't have to put on her "perfect mother" act.

One of the things that's had me puzzled is Lee's question to Casey in one of their visits. He said, "is this like the last time?"

Considering what Lee said in the context of prior abuse, it suggests that at some time in the past Casey had hurt Caylee, tried to hide it, and later was found out. Perhaps Cindy was bathing Caylee and found suspicious bruises and asked Caylee how she got them and Caylee said, "mommy." Maybe Casey had even tried to hide it by keeping Caylee away from home for a few days?

 

[Searchfortruth]

I always enjoy reading this thread, because I have a deep desire to figure these people out. If it was just Casey, and she came from a healthy home, it would be easier to blame her only. The fact that we have seen this family's exteme dysfunction makes for a blurry line, as to responsibility. Clearly the legal responsibility falls on Casey, but what moral responsibility do her parents share ? Maybe the question will never be answered completely, but I would sure like to know how much of Casey's personality is because of her make up and how much is a product of her parents. I don't guess anyone can give an exact answer to that question, but it would be helpful (at least to me) to know.

Thanks to all of you for the wonderful posts here.

 

[logicalgirl]

Dr. Robert Hare is a well known Dr. who has focused his career on the study and documentation of psychopaths, to determine criteria for recognizing these individuals who he believes make up 1% of the population. A comment he has made follows:

When a psychopath commits a violent act, they’re not doing it because they’re malicious or malevolent or evil. They’re doing it because they don’t give a damn.”

I think this is the hardest element for me to grasp - I just can't wrap my head around it.

 

[logicalgirl]

Just re-reading some of these articles, I came across one by Robert Hercz and his interview of Dr. Hare.
This can be found at http:www.hare.org/links/saturday.html

As I struggle to understand the full scope of the psychopathic personality, I found this to be great reading because it is in layman's language, so simple enough for me to understand. He is talking about the research on Psychopaths Among Us.

I've taken a quote out of the article as a taste:

"Hare's research upset a lot of people. Until the psychopath came into focus, it was possible to believe that bad people were just good people with bad parents or childhood trauma and that, with care, you could talk them back into being good. Hare's research suggested that some people behaved badly even when there had been no early trauma. Moreover, since psychopaths' brains were in fundamental ways different from ours, talking them into being like us might not be easy. Indeed, to this day, no one has found a way to do so.

"Some of the things he was saying about these individuals, it was unheard of," says Dr. Steven Stein, a psychologist and ceo of Multi-Health Systems in Toronto, the publisher of the Psychopathy Checklist. "Nobody believed him thirty years ago, but Bob hasn't wavered, and now everyone's where he is. Everyone's come full circle, except a small group who believe it's bad upbringing, family poverty, those kinds of factors, even though scientific evidence has shown that's not the case. There are wealthy psychopaths who've done horrendous things, and they were brought up in wonderful families."

"There's still a lot of opposition -- some criminologists, sociologists, and psychologists don't like psychopathy at all," Hare says. "I can spend the entire day going through the literature -- it's overwhelming, and unless you're semi-brain-dead you're stunned by it -- but a lot of people come out of there and say, 'So what? Psychopathy is a mythological construct.' They have political and social agendas: 'People are inherently good,' they say. 'Just give them a hug, a puppy dog, and a musical instrument and they're all going to be okay.' "

PS I love the last line.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I personally think George will eventually either talk or kill himself. He's a loser but imo he has a conscience, unlike the rest of this "family".

Why do you think GA has a conscience? I'm not so sure he does. I'm not sure if his responses are because he has a conscious or because he's worried about himself.

He has said to KC, 'sorry I wasn't a good enough father'. I guess that's some sort of a conscious. Unlike CA who feels that both she and KC deserve the mother of the year award. The people who usually get awards like that would probably never think they deserve it, ya know?

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Just re-reading some of these articles, I came across one by Robert Hercz and his interview of Dr. Hare.
This can be found at http:www.hare.org/links/saturday.html

As I struggle to understand the full scope of the psychopathic personality, I found this to be great reading because it is in layman's language, so simple enough for me to understand. He is talking about the research on Psychopaths Among Us.

I've taken a quote out of the article as a taste:

"Hare's research upset a lot of people. Until the psychopath came into focus, it was possible to believe that bad people were just good people with bad parents or childhood trauma and that, with care, you could talk them back into being good. Hare's research suggested that some people behaved badly even when there had been no early trauma. Moreover, since psychopaths' brains were in fundamental ways different from ours, talking them into being like us might not be easy. Indeed, to this day, no one has found a way to do so.

"Some of the things he was saying about these individuals, it was unheard of," says Dr. Steven Stein, a psychologist and ceo of Multi-Health Systems in Toronto, the publisher of the Psychopathy Checklist. "Nobody believed him thirty years ago, but Bob hasn't wavered, and now everyone's where he is. Everyone's come full circle, except a small group who believe it's bad upbringing, family poverty, those kinds of factors, even though scientific evidence has shown that's not the case. There are wealthy psychopaths who've done horrendous things, and they were brought up in wonderful families."

"There's still a lot of opposition -- some criminologists, sociologists, and psychologists don't like psychopathy at all," Hare says. "I can spend the entire day going through the literature -- it's overwhelming, and unless you're semi-brain-dead you're stunned by it -- but a lot of people come out of there and say, 'So what? Psychopathy is a mythological construct.' They have political and social agendas: 'People are inherently good,' they say. 'Just give them a hug, a puppy dog, and a musical instrument and they're all going to be okay.' "

PS I love the last line.

It bothers me a lot to know that upon request of Jeffrey Dahmer's mother, they studied his brain after he was killed. THEY FOUND NO DIFFERENCE IN HIS BRAIN WHEN COMPARED TO OTHER BRAINS. I so wish the outcome had been different. He killed and then ate his victims. It's too hard to comprehend really. He did say he really liked each one of his victims but didn't want them to leave him so he killed them and ate parts of them.

:sick:

 

[LambChop]

CA believes she and KC are woven from the same fabric, the finest fabric of entitlement. GA is just a plain old doormat. At least that is how CA see it I'm sure.... jmo

 

[OneLostGrl]

Why do you think GA has a conscience? I'm not so sure he does. I'm not sure if his responses are because he has a conscious or because he's worried about himself.

He has said to KC, 'sorry I wasn't a good enough father'. I guess that's some sort of a conscious. Unlike CA who feels that both she and KC deserve the mother of the year award. The people who usually get awards like that would probably never think they deserve it, ya know?

I think George is a man-child but I also think he has honest to goodness guilt about allowing Casey's behavior to continue as long as it did, about allowing his wife to control everyones lives. That one police interview where he was (IMO) totally honest (the one he had to sneak to, got sick at when Lee showed up) telling LE about Casey and the "robbery", the stealing money, lying about working at sports athority... told me much about his ability to *feel*. He wanted very badly to tell the truth! He is a loser, I know this but I think he feels and not just about himself.

 

[ynotdivein]

I think George is a man-child but I also think he has honest to goodness guilt about allowing Casey's behavior to continue as long as it did, about allowing his wife to control everyones lives. That one police interview where he was (IMO) totally honest (the one he had to sneak to, got sick at when Lee showed up) telling LE about Casey and the "robbery", the stealing money, lying about working at sports athority... told me much about his ability to *feel*. He wanted very badly to tell the truth! He is a loser, I know this but I think he feels and not just about himself.

RBBM

You have made a small lightbulb go off over my head.

George may or may not feel "guilt" over allowing Casey to carry on as he did. But IMO he does feel SHAME for his complicity. And to me, this is the difference. IMO neither Casey nor her mother have any capacity to feel shame.

Maybe "capacity to feel" shame is the wrong wording... maybe they understand it conceptually, as in using shame to manipulate a person into doing/not doing what they wish. But (again IMO) they themselves have ZERO sense of shame.

Sense of guilt is not the same as sense of shame. Awareness of guilt without perception of shame = blithe lies and mistruths. Does that make sense?
:waitasec:

 

[precious]

RBBM

You have made a small lightbulb go off over my head.

George may or may not feel "guilt" over allowing Casey to carry on as he did. But IMO he does feel SHAME for his complicity. And to me, this is the difference. IMO neither Casey nor her mother have any capacity to feel shame.

Maybe "capacity to feel" shame is the wrong wording... maybe they understand it conceptually, as in using shame to manipulate a person into doing/not doing what they wish. But (again IMO) they themselves have ZERO sense of shame.

Sense of guilt is not the same as sense of shame. Awareness of guilt without perception of shame = blithe lies and mistruths. Does that make sense?
:waitasec:

Makes perfect sense.

 

[logicalgirl]

It bothers me a lot to know that upon request of Jeffrey Dahmer's mother, they studied his brain after he was killed. THEY FOUND NO DIFFERENCE IN HIS BRAIN WHEN COMPARED TO OTHER BRAINS. I so wish the outcome had been different. He killed and then ate his victims. It's too hard to comprehend really. He did say he really liked each one of his victims but didn't want them to leave him so he killed them and ate parts of them.

:sick:

I think they found it no different because it was DEAD. These Doctors who study psychopaths, or sociopaths which is just another name, are talking about brain waves and different areas used or reactions monitored that light up different areas of the brain, not the actual brain cells.