Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4

[Knot4u2no]

First of all, it is wonderful to see you posting here. I briefly looked over the Crimson site and I believe you mentioned some serial killers...i.e, Ed Kemper. Have you done a profile on him and is it on the site? There are videos of him being interviewed....not sure if they were made public.

You have done much work on Casey and it is appreciated. I agree with your analysis of her character.

It would be interesting to see your profiles of some of the serial killers you listed.

As a validity test of the BRACE Character Profile, I did a BRACE Character Profile analysis of serial killer Edmund Kemper as an UNSUB (unknown subject) ... John Douglas did the input ratings and I did the analysis of Kemper as an UNSUB to me. The profile is in two parts:

Part 1
http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/166/9/

Part 2
http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/167/9/

Links to other profiles are on my website. Also, see the FAQ section for additional information about the BRACE Character Profile.

www.BRACEcharacterProfile.com

Russell

 

[BuzzieCat]

I consider the perp a psychopath. And psychopaths care. They care for their own well-being. They care if they get caught and there are consequences. They know the difference between right and wrong. They just don't care whether something is right or wrong as long as it meets their needs. They care about their image. People who don't care tend to be suicidal and psychopaths are the least likely to die by suicide. The ONLY thing that psychopaths care about is themselves and getting what they want.

Co-dependency is not recognised by the DSM at all and is controversial at best. It is not a disorder. It's a descriptive pop psych term that spread from a disease model of addiction into the general population with no scientific basis. For argument's sake, say the perp was co-dependent. Then she would be a doormat, clingy, at the beck and call of those she depended on, could not live without the "love" of her life, probably prone to suicidal gestures. Yet the perp seems to discard men and friends like so much tissue, possibly has discarded her parents, and definitely discarded her daughter. She's not begging her parents or friends to come visit her. She lashes out at her parents in the Aug video, rather than trying to placate them. There is nothing in her behaviour, in my opinion, to suggest that she is at the mercy of anyone's whims and angsting over any relationships. She's not focusing on anyone's needs but her own.

But the perp is narcissistic and demands being the only centre of attention. In that sense, she is people-centred, not as an end in itself but a means to an end- her own gratification. She will just as readily discard her latest bud when they outlive their usefulness and go on to the next whether that means in a minute, or weeks, or months. Everyone is expendable.

IMO

I pretty much agree. Psychopath or sociopath is what I see based on what information we have on her. IMO if she does have borderline personality disorder, it's with a high degree of antisocial thrown in.

I'm not sure what is meant when people say Casey is enmeshed with Cindy or co-dependent. I'm not sure I see that with Casey and Cindy as I understand the terms. Casey pretty much does whatever she wants, not what Cindy wants her to do. She doesn't seem to feel that she is "incomplete" without Cindy.

 

[Brini]

I consider the perp a psychopath. And psychopaths care. They care for their own well-being. They care if they get caught and there are consequences. They know the difference between right and wrong. They just don't care whether something is right or wrong as long as it meets their needs. They care about their image. People who don't care tend to be suicidal and psychopaths are the least likely to die by suicide. The ONLY thing that psychopaths care about is themselves and getting what they want.

Co-dependency is not recognised by the DSM at all and is controversial at best. It is not a disorder. It's a descriptive pop psych term that spread from a disease model of addiction into the general population with no scientific basis. For argument's sake, say the perp was co-dependent. Then she would be a doormat, clingy, at the beck and call of those she depended on, could not live without the "love" of her life, probably prone to suicidal gestures. Yet the perp seems to discard men and friends like so much tissue, possibly has discarded her parents, and definitely discarded her daughter. She's not begging her parents or friends to come visit her. She lashes out at her parents in the Aug video, rather than trying to placate them. There is nothing in her behaviour, in my opinion, to suggest that she is at the mercy of anyone's whims and angsting over any relationships. She's not focusing on anyone's needs but her own.

But the perp is narcissistic and demands being the only centre of attention. In that sense, she is people-centred, not as an end in itself but a means to an end- her own gratification. She will just as readily discard her latest bud when they outlive their usefulness and go on to the next whether that means in a minute, or weeks, or months. Everyone is expendable.

IMO

:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss:

 

[Knot4u2no]

Just some information related to the BRACE Character Profile and ethics related to psychological, psychiatric, and non-professional, personal opinions ... forensic or otherwise ... particularly as related to the nature of issues of confidentiality and who is and who is not a client (e.g. Casey, Cindy, George, Lee ... none are my clients ... no matters of therapeutic relationship or confidentiality related to any of them or their respective agents, legal or otherwise. No psychiatric or psychological assessments involved).That said, I think this case raises multiple ethical issues.

Chapter 10 in the following link contains an overview of some of the ethical issues related to forensic psychiatry (note that I am not a psychiatrist, but some of my most respected friends are psychiatrists):

http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/residentmit/ethicsprimer.aspx

The following is a prior post related to the Goldwater Rule (I would post the original link, but I can’t figure out how to do it):

I think you raise some very important and debatable ethical points, keeping in mind that ethical guidelines in any field are quite dynamic.

Is it ethical for a mental health professional to give a private opinion in a public forum? Is it ethical for a professional to withhold information that might save a life or narrow the focus of an investigation that involves a life? Can they offer professional opinions anonymously on crime tip lines? In terms of ethics, in what ways does the field of psychiatry differ from other medical specialties? Better yet, in what ways does forensic psychiatry differ in ethical guidelines from general psychiatry? Forensic psychiatrists certainly do assessments that produce results that may be harmful to the patient, but the patient is not the agent being served. What you address in your post is generally referred to as the Goldwater Rule – i.e., guidelines for psychiatrists related to media interviews. To satisfy the Goldwater Rule, the psychiatrist must do an examination and be granted proper authorization (i.e., a waiver of confidentiality) in order to offer a professional opinion. Does this mean that criminals and suspects can essentially issue a gag order to psychiatrists by not allowing an evaluation or not providing a waiver of confidentiality? Is it a violation of the Goldwater Rule for a psychiatrist to offer an opinion that is not addressed by the Goldwater Rule – i.e., a personal opinion in a public forum when there is no interview by the media? Can a psychiatrist offer a professional or private/confidential opinion to LE or a prosecutor or a public defender without having conducted a direct evaluation of the suspect in a criminal case? Do psychiatrists forfeit their constitutional rights of free speech when they enter the profession?

For additional information about the Goldwater Rule:
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/10/2

For additional information about investigative profiling:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/criminal.html

Too much, too soon, too little, too late?
Just like my above opinions.
Russell

 

[OneLostGrl]

Just some information related to the BRACE Character Profile and ethics related to psychological, psychiatric, and non-professional, personal opinions ... forensic or otherwise ... particularly as related to the nature of issues of confidentiality and who is and who is not a client (e.g. Casey, Cindy, George, Lee ... none are my clients ... no matters of therapeutic relationship or confidentiality related to any of them or their respective agents, legal or otherwise. No psychiatric or psychological assessments involved).That said, I think this case raises multiple ethical issues.

Chapter 10 in the following link contains an overview of some of the ethical issues related to forensic psychiatry (note that I am not a psychiatrist, but some of my most respected friends are psychiatrists):

http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/residentmit/ethicsprimer.aspx

The following is a prior post related to the Goldwater Rule (I would post the original link, but I can’t figure out how to do it):



For additional information about the Goldwater Rule:
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/10/2

For additional information about investigative profiling:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/criminal.html

Too much, too soon, too little, too late?
Just like my above opinions.
Russell

Thanks for the links. The one about profiling was really interesting!

 

[mes1955]

Even up-close-and-personal psychiatry is debatable, and diagnoses often become controversial among professionals in the field. How in the world can anyone expect to receive credence for evaluating an individual who is observed in the limelight of media frenzy without having done even one interview? I think anyone who makes sweeping evaluations without obtaining detailed information is devaluing the field's integrity with the vast number of assumptions that are being made in the name of "science". If this is what it's all about, I have to say I am withdrawing my confidence level in the field of professional psychiatry.

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by Knot4u2No:

. . .too little, too late?"

. . .like this Thank You note for all the references you've been providing.
Be assured I'm following-up with each one. You're an invaluable resource.

 

[JBean]

Even up-close-and-personal psychiatry is debatable, and diagnoses often become controversial among professionals in the field. How in the world can anyone expect to receive credence for evaluating an individual who is observed in the limelight of media frenzy without having done even one interview? I think anyone who makes sweeping evaluations without obtaining detailed information is devaluing the field's integrity with the vast number of assumptions that are being made in the name of "science". If this is what it's all about, I have to say I am withdrawing my confidence level in the field of professional psychiatry.

This is a good time to remind everyone that this is just a discussion forum, we don't check CV's, resumes,diplomas or certificates at the door, so I would not rely on this thread as professional input.
We of course do not have any idea who is and isn't a professional in this thread with the exception of Russell's credentials and work being available for review.
This thread is really about people just throwing out ideas based on what they have seen and heard , drawing some conclusions and sharing good links and information.

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by Knot4u2No:

The BRACE Character Profile is not a psychiatric or psychological test, though it can be correlated with any prototypical type that has clear criteria, such as personality disorders. The BRACE Character Profile is an indirect profiling tool designed for use by amateurs as well as professionals. It is not restricted and is available to the general public.

In other words, the BRACE could be used by investigating & supervisory
probation officers, correctional officers, and other criminal justice personnel
tasked with recommendations and classifications for custody, parole, etc.,
without much training on BRACE administration, scoring & interpretation,
or interfering with APA requirements for psychodiagnosticians. This is a
much needed contribution, K4u2N. I remain impressed.

 

[DAWN TREADER]

Top criminal profiler Pat Brown shares her thoughts on how the discovery of child skeletal remains will affect Casey Anthony's cooperation in the case, if those remains are identified as that of Anthony's missing two-year-old daughter, Caylee.

"Casey Anthony, since she exhibits psychopathological behaviors and has a history of pathological lying, can be expected to change her story as is necessary to be of fullest benefit to her own survival," Brown said. "The original story of the babysitter/kidnapper served as a distraction to the more likely scenario that Casey had done something to Caylee and that Caylee was no longer alive. If she could get people to believe that Caylee was a missing child case, then the searches for Caylee would allow time for the body to decompose, the evidence to vanish, and the witnesses' memories to dwindle and become less credible. Then when the believability factor of that story began to slide, especially when evidence from the trunk indicated Caylee was dead, Casey still could hope the body wouldn’t be found, so she stuck to the story."

Continue Reading Here (See Link Below)

http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/2008/12/criminal-prof-2.html

--------------

DT

 

[OneLostGrl]

Even up-close-and-personal psychiatry is debatable, and diagnoses often become controversial among professionals in the field. How in the world can anyone expect to receive credence for evaluating an individual who is observed in the limelight of media frenzy without having done even one interview? I think anyone who makes sweeping evaluations without obtaining detailed information is devaluing the field's integrity with the vast number of assumptions that are being made in the name of "science". If this is what it's all about, I have to say I am withdrawing my confidence level in the field of professional psychiatry.

It says a lot when every professional that has spoken out on the case has come to the same basic conclusion. As always, we are all free to feel as we wish but I am willing to bet that when Casey's psych eval from jail or leading up to trial is released (or rather, if it is released), pop back into these psych threads, read the posts again and you will find your post above was written in haste. There has been nothing "sweeping" about most of the "evaluations" that have taken place on this thread.

Just like a cardiologist knows what a heart attack looks like, a pulminary doc knows what a asthma attack looks like or a Neurologist knows what a seizure looks like.. because they specialize in their field and they know the signs and symptoms to watch for, they can spot those symptoms regardless of if that person was their patient or not.

 

[ThoughtElf]

It says a lot when every professional that has spoken out on the case has come to the same basic conclusion. As always, we are all free to feel as we wish but I am willing to bet that when Casey's psych eval from jail or leading up to trial is released (or rather, if it is released), pop back into these psych threads, read the posts again and you will find your post above was written in haste. There has been nothing "sweeping" about most of the "evaluations" that have taken place on this thread.

Just like a cardiologist knows what a heart attack looks like, a pulminary doc knows what a asthma attack looks like or a Neurologist knows what a seizure looks like.. because they specialize in their field and they know the signs and symptoms to watch for, they can spot those symptoms regardless of if that person was their patient or not.

And if I am ever in public having a heart attack, asthma attack or seizure, I certainly would hope that the respective Dr's would step up and speak out about what my symptoms are pointing towards; it could save a life.

The knowledge being shared here could one day save lives, if it means that anyone recognizes that someone close to them may need a professional diagnosis.

Too bad that didn't happen earlier in this case.

 

[Rumpole]

And if I am ever in public having a heart attack, asthma attack or seizure, I certainly would hope that the respective Dr's would step up and speak out about what my symptoms are pointing towards; it could save a life.

The knowledge being shared here could one day save lives, if it means that anyone recognizes that someone close to them may need a professional diagnosis.

Too bad that didn't happen earlier in this case.

Individual difference play such a large part in human psychology that it is hard to apply a proper diagnosis other than a case by case basis.

Here for instance, CA is has some similar traits to KC, but they have not manefested into her killing her daughter at agee 2 (What a shame as it turns out)

 

[blossomfish]

I was just reading about the mother of Baby Grace (a 2 year old beautiful girl who was beaten to death apparently by her mother and possibly father). The mother was sentenced today (LWOP). I was struck by some similarities to KC while reading a piece of evidence (the mother's handwritten notebook). She writes about beating her daughter so viciously that the girl dies and then the mother makes up an alternate reality (a lie) to cover up.

"She was gone but no one had to know what really happened, right?" She writes next that she dressed the body in nice clothes and goes to buy trash bags and a plastic container, gives the baby a kiss, and puts her in several trash bags carefully tying the knot in each one and puts her in the shed. She calls her husband and tells him protective services took the baby but they can get her back. She keeps writing this later as though this is the reality. "We can fight it and get her back."

She puts quick cement in the container and tosses it into the gulf that night. Goes back to sleep with hubby. Writes that they will get her back, they can't take her forever. Writes that she had a terrible dream about her daughter in a box. She wonders what is the reality and what is the dream. In the end she writes "that's really Riley isn't it?"

I just imagine that someone like KC may have a similar mindset and really start to blur the lines between reality and the made-up world. I am trying to understand how a pathological liar would think, and I feel this gave some insight on how they may start to convince themselves their lies are true.

Here is a link to the article - a caution though because the notebook evidence attachment is heartwrenching to read as it describes the mother abusing her daughter.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=6637449

Please note that all the information above came from the mother's notebook so we don't know if it is all true, and what I wrote is just my opinion.

 

[ThoughtElf]

Individual difference play such a large part in human psychology that it is hard to apply a proper diagnosis other than a case by case basis.

Here for instance, CA is has some similar traits to KC, but they have not manefested into her killing her daughter at agee 2 (What a shame as it turns out)

True.

Perhaps CA was lacking a critical emotional trigger in her mid-teens? That might explain the difference.

 

[Rumpole]

True.

Perhaps CA was lacking a critical emotional trigger in her mid-teens? That might explain the difference.

Did I break this web sit a few minutes ago, or did you. Or is it just me.

I am often amazed that I am not paranoid. The world has always been against me.

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by mes1955:

I think anyone who makes sweeping evaluations without obtaining detailed information is devaluing the field's integrity with the vast number of assumptions that are being made in the name of "science".

.
Apparently the American Psychiatric Association would agree with you,
particularly as highlighted in the following reference to the Goldwater Rule.

Originally posted by Knot4u2NO:

For additional information about the Goldwater Rule: http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/10/2

From the above article:

. . .responses [to a magazine inquiry about a public figure] couched in psychiatric terminology, were so unfair and so outrageous that
[the subject of the inquiry] sued and won a substantial settlement.
APA issued public statements decrying such analyses. . . .[emphasizing] Psychobabble reported by the media undermines psychiatry as science."

For me, the difference in the Casey Anthony case is the vast amount of
data which are available (as a result of Florida's Sunshine Laws), which
often are not open for study in other states even by forensic experts.
For example, the hours of FBI interviews with the parents, jailhouse
interviews with the defendant & family, audio interviews with a plethora
of friends offer rich contextual information about a young woman accused
of fillicide after leading LE (and the public) on a wild goose chase. People
are naturally going to question WHY.

Fortunately, in this case, most of the mental health professionals whom I've
observed in the media are being conservative in stating diagnoses.

Your point, however, is very well taken.

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by Blossomfish:

I was just reading about the mother of Baby Grace (a 2 year old beautiful girl who was beaten to death apparently by her mother and possibly father). The mother was sentenced today (LWOP). I was struck by some similarities to KC while reading a piece of evidence (the mother's handwritten notebook). She writes about beating her daughter so viciously that the girl dies and then the mother makes up an alternate reality (a lie) to cover up.

Thanks for the link. That mother's own journaling about her hideous abuse
of her child must have been done in moments of "clinical" detachment,
trying to answer the same question which is there for all of us "WHY?"
Again, an attractive young mom, a beautiful child, "WHY?" What accounts
for such incomprehensible sadism within any young mother?

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by Knot4u2No, re the BRACE character analysis:

. . .the virtual character reflected is distorted to the degree that the instructions are not followed or poor critical thinking skills are applied by those determining the ratings. Those supplying the ratings are responsible for both the quality of the results and how the results are used.

Great "Disclaimer." I particularly like the emphasis on responsibility on the user (which is as it should be in actuality for most psychometrics, but
just never fully spelled out. . .unless by opposing counsel/experts).

I was so impressed that I googled the BRACE author & see that I have a
wealth of other fascinating tid-bits to consider.

Gomer Pyle says it best, "Gollee, Andy, thanks!"

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by hannahsnana:

Do you really think time and money has been spent to do a complete psychological evaluation on Casey?

Reportedly, an evaluation (don't know if psychiatric or psychological) was
done when KC was first taken into custody, although the results are sealed.
(This is not uncommon.)

If ordered by the government, as I'm sure it was, either County or State
would cover the cost (more likely, have their on-staff psychiatrists and/or
psychologists perform the evaluation). It could be as thorough as a
complete psychological evaluation with interviews and psychological tests, or only a psychiatric interview with Mental Status Assessment and Substance
Abuse Assessment. If defense orders such an evaluation either pre-trial
or pre-sentencing, be assured it will be done by high-profile psychiatrists
and/or psychologists who charge megabucks as expert witnesses. Perhaps
then, one of those anonymous donors could cover the cost coz the
government for sure won't pay.