Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4

[Knot4u2no]

Originally posted by Knot4u2No, re the BRACE character analysis:


Great "Disclaimer." I particularly like the emphasis on responsibility on the user (which is as it should be in actuality for most psychometrics, but
just never fully spelled out. . .unless by opposing counsel/experts).

I was so impressed that I googled the BRACE author & see that I have a
wealth of other fascinating tid-bits to consider.

Gomer Pyle says it best, "Gollee, Andy, thanks!"

You could Google "BRACE Character Profile" and come back to this post in a few days.
Russell

 

[OneLostGrl]

Individual difference play such a large part in human psychology that it is hard to apply a proper diagnosis other than a case by case basis.

Here for instance, CA is has some similar traits to KC, but they have not manefested into her killing her daughter at agee 2 (What a shame as it turns out)

Goodness, not everyone who who share some traits or have the same condition will have the same outcome.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Did I break this web sit a few minutes ago, or did you. Or is it just me.

I am often amazed that I am not paranoid. The world has always been against me.

LOL I used to think the cops were against me.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I was just reading about the mother of Baby Grace (a 2 year old beautiful girl who was beaten to death apparently by her mother and possibly father). The mother was sentenced today (LWOP). I was struck by some similarities to KC while reading a piece of evidence (the mother's handwritten notebook).

~snip~

Huh.. sick. I don't know if I believe she wrote that on her own though..

 

[OneLostGrl]

Originally posted by hannahsnana:


Reportedly, an evaluation (don't know if psychiatric or psychological) was
done when KC was first taken into custody, although the results are sealed.
(This is not uncommon.)

If ordered by the government, as I'm sure it was, either County or State
would cover the cost (more likely, have their on-staff psychiatrists and/or
psychologists perform the evaluation). It could be as thorough as a
complete psychological evaluation with interviews and psychological tests, or only a psychiatric interview with Mental Status Assessment and Substance
Abuse Assessment. If defense orders such an evaluation either pre-trial
or pre-sentencing, be assured it will be done by high-profile psychiatrists
and/or psychologists who charge megabucks as expert witnesses. Perhaps
then, one of those anonymous donors could cover the cost coz the
government for sure won't pay.

Seems funny and not, ha-ha- the sunshine law lets everything else come out. As much as I love following cases here I am in awe over how much has been released in this particular one.

 

[mes1955]

Originally posted by mes1955:
.
Apparently the American Psychiatric Association would agree with you,
particularly as highlighted in the following reference to the Goldwater Rule.

Originally posted by Knot4u2NO:


From the above article:


For me, the difference in the Casey Anthony case is the vast amount of
data which are available (as a result of Florida's Sunshine Laws), which
often are not open for study in other states even by forensic experts.
For example, the hours of FBI interviews with the parents, jailhouse
interviews with the defendant & family, audio interviews with a plethora
of friends offer rich contextual information about a young woman accused
of fillicide after leading LE (and the public) on a wild goose chase. People
are naturally going to question WHY.

Fortunately, in this case, most of the mental health professionals whom I've
observed in the media are being conservative in stating diagnoses.

Your point, however, is very well taken.

Thank you for your response; however, I believe that mental health diagnoses become complicated by various factors, a big one being drug usage. It is my understanding that it would be very difficult to profile an individual whose behaviors have been influenced by use of drugs and/or alcohol. There are indications that the use of substances may be an issue here, which throws the typical "slotting" out the window.

Mental illness (especially a lot of the diagnoses being thrown around this forum) is a still a social stigma--as evidenced by many derogatory comments being made. In my eyes, I see this individual and her family being treated in the same manner as freaks in a side show. I'm in no way calling the Anthony's freaks...to the contrary, I am get the sick feeling that all this public evaluation is at that level.

I realize people want to know why a tragedy like this occurs, but I'm thinking it would be better to try and figure it out AFTER a conviction, not before. I would think that a true professional would know better, and those so-called professionals appearing on NG's show should lose their licenses (if they even have one), IMO.

 

[Knot4u2no]

Thank you for your response; however, I believe that mental health diagnoses become complicated by various factors, a big one being drug usage. It is my understanding that it would be very difficult to profile an individual whose behaviors have been influenced by use of drugs and/or alcohol. There are indications that the use of substances may be an issue here, which throws the typical "slotting" out the window.

Mental illness (especially a lot of the diagnoses being thrown around this forum) is a still a social stigma--as evidenced by many derogatory comments being made. In my eyes, I see this individual and her family being treated in the same manner as freaks in a side show. I'm in no way calling the Anthony's freaks...to the contrary, I am get the sick feeling that all this public evaluation is at that level.

I realize people want to know why a tragedy like this occurs, but I'm thinking it would be better to try and figure it out AFTER a conviction, not before. I would think that a true professional would know better, and those so-called professionals appearing on NG's show should lose their licenses (if they even have one), IMO.

Mental health labels (i.e., diagnoses) are exactly that, clinical labels applied by informed, licensed professionals ... diagnostic categories based informed clinical opinion. However, neither the American Psychological Association nor the American Psychiatric Association govern public opinion. Any individual’s public behavior, verbal and nonverbal, over time and circumstance, allows for considered opinions by anyone about that person’s character. Given enough information (e.g., she lies, she steals, she dances under unusual circumstances), one does not have wait for a trial to formulate an opinion about her character. However, one does have to wait for a trial to formulate a legal decision as to her guilt or innocence related to Caylee’s murder if one is on a jury. I prefer to have people discuss all aspects of a case ... as soon as the information is available to do so. Professionals aside, the public has a vested interest in solving such cases and forums such as WS do a public service by making the facts of the case known as soon as possible - in some cases, revealing the facts.
Russell

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by mes1955:

I believe that mental health diagnoses become complicated by various factors, a big one being drug usage. It is my understanding that it would be very difficult to profile an individual whose behaviors have been influenced by use of drugs and/or alcohol. There are indications that the use of substances may be an issue here, which throws the typical "slotting" out the window.

I fully agree and own my bias about the need for skilled substance abuse
assessment in every mental health evaluation, and certainly in every
forensic evaluation. (If this seems overstated, I'll gladly defend my position.)
But there is a ubiquitous problem of accurate substance abuse assessments
when interview or SA surveys are the only data. What is offered in the
Casey Anthony case, however, is direct, photographic observation of the effects of substance abuse, as well as the reports of significant others,
both of which are more reliable than self-report in a substance abuser.

There is a tendency for objective personality results to be contaminated by
the neuropsychological effects of post-acute substance withdrawal (during the first 3-4 months abstinence), but so are our direct observations.

For example, while most characteristics & behaviors seem relatively stable,
we can observe a dramatic difference in KC's emotional lability in the
July/August jail-family visits versus 1/08 Court appearances, which
may be associated with post-acute substance withdrawal. Also, her
loading on "snacks", especially chocolate, (frequently mentioned by NG)
is common in post-acute substance withdrawal. Thanks for calling attention to this often overlooked problem in evaluation.

I, too, cringe when questions about mental health evaluations form the basis for an overly-subjective gossip fest. But, I do look forward to sharing
information and learning from others in our mutually respectful and
objective effort to understand what has become an incredibly perplexing
and compelling psycholegal problem.

 

[itsyourworld]

Verite': it was widely reported that her tox screen came back negative.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Verite': it was widely reported that her tox screen came back negative.

Even if that were not the case she would have begun withdrawl from whatever drug people seem to think she was addicted to long before January. She has been in jail for quite some time now, no drugs, yet her behavior (lying, manipulating, treating parents like , me, me, me attitude, no show of concern whatsoever for her dead daughter, LAUGHING and flirting in court while her daughters remains are being discussed..) remains the same.
We also know her pattern of behavior was in effect while dating Jesse who says Casey didn't do drugs when they were together.

But by all means, people, keep grasping at straws, searching for the most far fetched "reasons" for why Casey acts the way she does when the most logical and simple answers are right in front of us. IMO.

 

[Verité]

My previous discussion had to do with the subtle physiological and
neuropsychological effects of substance abuse withdrawal during the post-acute phase (lets say 30 days to several months abstinence),
versus more dramatic, obvious effects during detox (0-14 days abstinence). Even then, alcohol rapidly metabolizes and wouldn't be detected on tox
screens performed within hours post-ingestion.

A negative screen for the presence of alcohol & drugs in the system at the
time KC was first taken into custody isn't disputed. She didn't appear to be
intoxicated during those earliest LE interviews, and clearly spent a sufficient
amount of time with LE for any drug/alcohol-related suspicions to have been
reported. Also, as to reliability of tox screening, what was used to perform the screen? Blood? Urine? Hair?

 

[itsyourworld]

My previous discussion had to do with the subtle physiological and
neuropsychological effects of substance abuse withdrawal during the post-acute phase (lets say 30 days to several months abstinence),
versus more dramatic, obvious effects during detox (0-14 days abstinence). Even then, alcohol rapidly metabolizes and wouldn't be detected on tox
screens performed within hours post-ingestion.

A negative screen for the presence of alcohol & drugs in the system at the
time KC was first taken into custody isn't disputed. She didn't appear to be
intoxicated during those earliest LE interviews, and clearly spent a sufficient
amount of time with LE for any drug/alcohol-related suspicions to have been
reported. Also, as to reliability of tox screening, what was used to perform the screen? Blood? Urine? Hair?

whatever tests they used to determine toxicity seems to be well enough accepted by LE to state that she was not on any drugs at the time of her arrest. of course any drinking would have dissipated from her system in 48 hours and therefore may not be measured on the tests. we see pictures of her in obvious intoxicated states, so it isn't unreasonable to assume she enjoyed drinking. anecdotes from the friends she was with suggest that while she might have some drinks, she was rarely in an intoxicated state. other pictures show her sucking lollipops, which some posters say indicates someone who uses ecstasy.

the neuropsychological affects of these drugs in the short duration will be minimal. we have nothing to indicate long term drug abuse even if she was using ecstasy. we know that her pot smoking was a recent development. although the gateway usually starts with milder drugs and builds up to the harder stuff, we have no routine for casey to pin any substance abuse to. she appears, then, to be at worst an experimenter, or someone who does what the crowd around her is doing with no pattern of personal abuse. you could argue that any drug taking is abuse, and you're welcome to that argument. it appears to me that casey was less influenced by drugs than she was by the psychological confusion that has been described brilliantly in this thread by others.

its difficult to do the more thorough clinical diagnosis of casey only because we are given so very little to use to draw any conclusions. observing her interactions with her family, listening to her talk to LE, and watching her in court doesn't do much but give a baseline from which to start.

best guessing is the best we can do, and from what i have read from some posters here, their guess is pretty good.

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by itsyourworld:
. . .its difficult to do the more thorough clinical diagnosis of casey. . .

. . .at best, even if professionally charged to do so. Meanwhile, we can
keep an open mind in an attempt to understand. Towards that end, your
comments are helpful & appreciated. Thanks.

 

[nancy botwin]

Originally posted by mes1955:


I fully agree and own my bias about the need for skilled substance abuse
assessment in every mental health evaluation, and certainly in every
forensic evaluation. (If this seems overstated, I'll gladly defend my position.)
But there is a ubiquitous problem of accurate substance abuse assessments
when interview or SA surveys are the only data. What is offered in the
Casey Anthony case, however, is direct, photographic observation of the effects of substance abuse, as well as the reports of significant others,
both of which are more reliable than self-report in a substance abuser.

There is a tendency for objective personality results to be contaminated by
the neuropsychological effects of post-acute substance withdrawal (during the first 3-4 months abstinence), but so are our direct observations.

For example, while most characteristics & behaviors seem relatively stable,
we can observe a dramatic difference in KC's emotional lability in the
July/August jail-family visits versus 1/08 Court appearances, which
may be associated with post-acute substance withdrawal. Also, her
loading on "snacks", especially chocolate, (frequently mentioned by NG)
is common in post-acute substance withdrawal. Thanks for calling attention to this often overlooked problem in evaluation.

I, too, cringe when questions about mental health evaluations form the basis for an overly-subjective gossip fest. But, I do look forward to sharing
information and learning from others in our mutually respectful and
objective effort to understand what has become an incredibly perplexing
and compelling psycholegal problem.

Any professional assessment of Casey would contemplate whether her observed symptoms could be attributed to drug use or abuse. In the case of Casey Anthony, professionals and pedestrians alike can pretty easily make that determination since she's been under the supervision of the Orange County Correctional System since July 16. She was tested at arrest and she was tested regularly during her home confinement period. Her tests were always clean.

Even if that were not the case she would have begun withdrawl from whatever drug people seem to think she was addicted to long before January. She has been in jail for quite some time now, no drugs, yet her behavior (lying, manipulating, treating parents like , me, me, me attitude, no show of concern whatsoever for her dead daughter, LAUGHING and flirting in court while her daughters remains are being discussed..) remains the same.
We also know her pattern of behavior was in effect while dating Jesse who says Casey didn't do drugs when they were together.

But by all means, people, keep grasping at straws, searching for the most far fetched "reasons" for why Casey acts the way she does when the most logical and simple answers are right in front of us. IMO.

Awesome post! I very much agree. :clap::clap:

 

[Verité]

Originally Posted by Knot4u2no View Post
The general structure and rationale for the BRACE Character Profile is detailed in the BRACE Character Profile of Casey. For a more detailed explanation, there is a free manual available through www.crimsonshadows.net in the Repository section under Forensic Tools/BRACE Character Profiling Tools. I will be happy to answer any specific questions, but it is difficult to explain without a specific focus. I could say that it is a profiling technique that compares and contrasts an individual's core characteristics with core characteristics common to basic human nature, but that wouldn't help much.

Back to the BRACE, I'm plodding through. . .but can't find a description of
stats. Iterative intercolumnar cluster analysis, by any chance? Described
in manual noted above (my bold)?

 

[LCoastMom]

Originally posted by hannahsnana:


Reportedly, an evaluation (don't know if psychiatric or psychological) was
done when KC was first taken into custody, although the results are sealed.
(This is not uncommon.)

If ordered by the government, as I'm sure it was, either County or State
would cover the cost (more likely, have their on-staff psychiatrists and/or
psychologists perform the evaluation). It could be as thorough as a
complete psychological evaluation with interviews and psychological tests, or only a psychiatric interview with Mental Status Assessment and Substance
Abuse Assessment. If defense orders such an evaluation either pre-trial
or pre-sentencing, be assured it will be done by high-profile psychiatrists
and/or psychologists who charge megabucks as expert witnesses. Perhaps
then, one of those anonymous donors could cover the cost coz the
government for sure won't pay.

The initial evaluation was ordered by Judge Stickland (I believe), during a bond hearing. I would think, unless it said KC would never under any circumstance, harm a hair on her daughter's head and by the way she is fully capable of walking on water every other Sunday; Baez is going to order his own evaluation too. Basically to back up whatever line of defense JB decides to use.

Psychological tests are very subjective IMO and the same test can be evaluated by 3 doctors and come up with three different opinions.

 

[JBean]

Once again I must remind that this is simply a discussion and we do not recognize any posters here as professionals in any field. Russell's credentials and work have been made available but that is it.
I must caution this because we do not check anyone's qualifications at sign up and it is often thought that we have authenticated posters as professionals when in fact we have not.
The discussion here is not professional in nature and is an exchange of ideas and links thanks.

 

[ThoughtElf]

Even if that were not the case she would have begun withdrawl from whatever drug people seem to think she was addicted to long before January. She has been in jail for quite some time now, no drugs, yet her behavior (lying, manipulating, treating parents like , me, me, me attitude, no show of concern whatsoever for her dead daughter, LAUGHING and flirting in court while her daughters remains are being discussed..) remains the same.
We also know her pattern of behavior was in effect while dating Jesse who says Casey didn't do drugs when they were together.

But by all means, people, keep grasping at straws, searching for the most far fetched "reasons" for why Casey acts the way she does when the most logical and simple answers are right in front of us. IMO.

I'm grateful for those posts. Gives me something new to read in the wee hours. :wink:

:blowkiss:

 

[Knot4u2no]

Back to the BRACE, I'm plodding through. . .but can't find a description of
stats. Iterative intercolumnar cluster analysis, by any chance? Described
in manual noted above (my bold)?

You are way above my head when it comes to stats. I have no idea what that means - i.e., interative intercolumnar cluster analysis. I did not do the stats related to the analysis process ... I understand just a little bit about stats. However, I am an expert in the ratings process and analysis of the ratings for the BRACE Character Profile. My point is, somebody else did the stats program. Stats ... not my cup of tea.

Russell

 

[Verité]

Sorry for the bother. Thanks for your time & courtesy throughout.