Casey & Family Psychological Profile #9

[MissJames]

But do we know CA sought professional help as in a counselor or is this a CA mis-truth. No counselor has come forward, not that one would, as it would be confidential information but with as much stuff has come out, this little tid bit seems to me would have oozed out into the biosphere somehow. So with all of the other information from the A camp, I putting that info into the Don't Believe a Word of IT, Until Proven File.

ITA I brought this up awhile back.CA says what she believes others want to hear.It may have been said to appease her mother,who wanted to bring charges against KC. Maybe CA wanted to kick KC out and it sounded less cold hearted if she claimed a counselor told her to do it.She worked for a healthcare agency,so perhaps it came up during a conversation with a colleague.Maybe she watched Dr. Phil and went "Aha!"
Until we see proof that CA sought out a counselor I won't believe it,totally.It may have happened,but it doesn't seem like something CA would pay for.Not when they were going broke.

 

[kageykaren]

I think the first hearsay comment about CA seeking her own mental health counselor was recorded by Shirley P's email to her sister. There have been no statements as to wether Ca may have gone a second time. Many of us felt at one time that a therapist would not give CA a diagnosis for KC and advise CA to get custody after one visit. This diagnosis of KC being a sociopath is not one to be thrown out flippantly as CA did. My opinon with out fact to support it is CA may have gone once to hear "What she wanted to hear." Watching CA's behavior of avoidence with FBI and not filling out KC mental health questionaire and not following through with their attorney friend for power of attorney for Caylee after her birth has me thinking CA would avoid a second therapist visit that would require her to be more fortelling, open, and honest about her feelings and how it pertains to KC. CA may have had to share a family secret of some sort divulging the ugly within a family. As with most people who wear a mask in life this form of therapy doesn't work as the patient uses what she hears to manipulate another for gains, financially and emotionally as CA did with KC's friends. I feel GA checked himself out mentally with these two women long ago settling in to his passive agressiveness as an observer. (FBI statement, "I live with two very strong minded women", like he was looking for sympathy or an excuse). It appears Lee took over the lead in the family becomming the mediator, fianacial supporter, therapist for family, and most of all the asigning spokesperson for the family as GA stated the 2 remaining family members chose this. Very mixed up boundries in this family! For grins has anyone found a link of GA and LA hugging at anytime since this mess began? I feel Caylee offered this family respit from each other allowing the adults a moment to express normal feelings of joy in a home that appeared to have no joy.

 

[LCoastMom]

But do we know CA sought professional help as in a counselor or is this a CA mis-truth. No counselor has come forward, not that one would, as it would be confidential information but with as much stuff has come out, this little tid bit seems to me would have oozed out into the biosphere somehow. So with all of the other information from the A camp, I putting that info into the Don't Believe a Word of IT, Until Proven File.

BBM That is absolutely true. I thought I heard or read in the LE interview of Cindy's coworkers and supervisor, that Cindy had seen a counselor provided by the company she worked for. If that is the case, the ones that I have been aware of generally offer between 5 and 10 visits per year. Even if she used all that were offered, I would certainly agree that isn't always enough time to establish a relationship.

Not assuming that she actually went, but if she went, this would have been someone she sought out. With the complexities that are Cindy, would that make it more likely for her to be honest with this person? Then again with her elevated sense of self, there is no telling how she would have explained the situation.

Then of course even if she was telling her truth, she would only have have her own P.O.V. to speak from. I'm never sure how she actually viewed KC, did she see her as a spiteful b!tch? Or was she a loving mother? Did it depend on the day of the week or what the weather was? I don't think both things come in a single wrapper.

BBM.

I would never say that Cindy and George are responsible for all of Casey's actions or behaviors. They surely aren't responsible for Caylee's murder, but I do believe that they are responsible for a "percentage" of Casey's personality...who she grew up to be. How much they contributed, I don't know.

As for the question of the counselor's responsibility, I have no idea if Cindy was totally truthful with this counselor, nor do I know what Cindy revealed to this counselor. I assume, but don't know, that Cindy went to the counselor one time and never went back. Shirley said Cindy couldn't do what this counselor suggested, kick Casey out. I don't think this was a long therapeutic relationship.

The following paragraph discusses mandatory reporting in FL...

Chapter 39 of the Florida Statutes (F.S.) mandates that any person who knows, or has reasonable cause to suspect, that a child is abused, neglected, or abandoned by a parent, legal custodian, caregiver, or other person responsible for the child's welfare shall immediately report such knowledge or suspicion to the Florida Abuse Hotline of the Department of Children and Families.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...rting+florida+nurses&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Thank you for posting the reporting information.

I just wonder, knowing what it is like in FL for a grandparent to actually be successful in obtaining custody. What would a grandparent have to say to a counselor, for the counselor to suggest they attempt to do so? And if a situation were such that the counselor felt the baby shouldn't be with her mother, did the situation warrant a call to CPS (or the above hotline). Especially if the grandparent indicated that they wouldn't do so or in this case not return for more sessions.

Is it the general consensus, that the Cindy we have seen for the last 12 months the same Cindy who was the mother, wife and grandmother all along? The way Shirley pleaded with her to stop acting so hateful towards LE and the media. Didn't she say something along the line that she needed to stop and let people see her for the good person she really is. Not the b!tch that she had been acting like. Was Shirley blind to the 'real' Cindy, the way Cindy was/is blind to the real KC?

I had the feeling for a long time that the Cindy we had been seeing was Cindy in hyper protection mode. Initially for Caylee, then for KC. She was a woman who could be any of ours neighbor, who had been living under a curtain of stress for so long, putting up a front for anyone who saw her that all was fine. When the reality was that her life was going to hell in a hand basket. And she didn't know how to stop it. When it all came crashing down around her, she was empty, she had been running on all cylinders for so long, when the end came she had nothing left. The Cindy we were seeing was a raw mass of nerves, not able to sleep, not able to eat, having no clue what she was doing or how she was being perceived, not having enough reserves to care.

IDK maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to explain how she could appear to be this loving grandmother we see in the pictures and videos. Then seem to forget that her little grand daughter was murdered, in an apparently heinous way. That all evidence points to her daughter being the murderer, whether she likes it or not. It is what it is. And the longer she tries to back up the spiteful b!tch that is her daughter, the more she looks anything but the doting grandmother.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

 

[MissJames]

BBM That is absolutely true. I thought I heard or read in the LE interview of Cindy's coworkers and supervisor, that Cindy had seen a counselor provided by the company she worked for. If that is the case, the ones that I have been aware of generally offer between 5 and 10 visits per year. Even if she used all that were offered, I would certainly agree that isn't always enough time to establish a relationship.

Not assuming that she actually went, but if she went, this would have been someone she sought out. With the complexities that are Cindy, would that make it more likely for her to be honest with this person? Then again with her elevated sense of self, there is no telling how she would have explained the situation.

Then of course even if she was telling her truth, she would only have have her own P.O.V. to speak from. I'm never sure how she actually viewed KC, did she see her as a spiteful b!tch? Or was she a loving mother? Did it depend on the day of the week or what the weather was? I don't think both things come in a single wrapper.



Thank you for posting the reporting information.

I just wonder, knowing what it is like in FL for a grandparent to actually be successful in obtaining custody. What would a grandparent have to say to a counselor, for the counselor to suggest they attempt to do so? And if a situation were such that the counselor felt the baby shouldn't be with her mother, did the situation warrant a call to CPS (or the above hotline). Especially if the grandparent indicated that they wouldn't do so or in this case not return for more sessions.

Is it the general consensus, that the Cindy we have seen for the last 12 months the same Cindy who was the mother, wife and grandmother all along? The way Shirley pleaded with her to stop acting so hateful towards LE and the media. Didn't she say something along the line that she needed to stop and let people see her for the good person she really is. Not the b!tch that she had been acting like. Was Shirley blind to the 'real' Cindy, the way Cindy was/is blind to the real KC?

I had the feeling for a long time that the Cindy we had been seeing was Cindy in hyper protection mode. Initially for Caylee, then for KC. She was a woman who could be any of ours neighbor, who had been living under a curtain of stress for so long, putting up a front for anyone who saw her that all was fine. When the reality was that her life was going to hell in a hand basket. And she didn't know how to stop it. When it all came crashing down around her, she was empty, she had been running on all cylinders for so long, when the end came she had nothing left. The Cindy we were seeing was a raw mass of nerves, not able to sleep, not able to eat, having no clue what she was doing or how she was being perceived, not having enough reserves to care.

IDK maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to explain how she could appear to be this loving grandmother we see in the pictures and videos. Then seem to forget that her little grand daughter was murdered, in an apparently heinous way. That all evidence points to her daughter being the murderer, whether she likes it or not. It is what it is. And the longer she tries to back up the spiteful b!tch that is her daughter, the more she looks anything but the doting grandmother.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

Here's my take on Cindy and it's total supposition.
I think she did enjoy taking care of people,being needed,being the nurturer,the one who brought all good things to you.But then you owed her. She used that in her family to gain control.To manipulate.She was in charge and don't you forget it!
I get the impression she was the type of parent who would stick up for her kids in school,with teachers and admin,but then chew them out at home for committing some offense.

 

[OneLostGrl]

BBM That is absolutely true. I thought I heard or read in the LE interview of Cindy's coworkers and supervisor, that Cindy had seen a counselor provided by the company she worked for. If that is the case, the ones that I have been aware of generally offer between 5 and 10 visits per year. Even if she used all that were offered, I would certainly agree that isn't always enough time to establish a relationship.

Not assuming that she actually went, but if she went, this would have been someone she sought out. With the complexities that are Cindy, would that make it more likely for her to be honest with this person? Then again with her elevated sense of self, there is no telling how she would have explained the situation.

Then of course even if she was telling her truth, she would only have have her own P.O.V. to speak from. I'm never sure how she actually viewed KC, did she see her as a spiteful b!tch? Or was she a loving mother? Did it depend on the day of the week or what the weather was? I don't think both things come in a single wrapper.



Thank you for posting the reporting information.

I just wonder, knowing what it is like in FL for a grandparent to actually be successful in obtaining custody. What would a grandparent have to say to a counselor, for the counselor to suggest they attempt to do so? And if a situation were such that the counselor felt the baby shouldn't be with her mother, did the situation warrant a call to CPS (or the above hotline). Especially if the grandparent indicated that they wouldn't do so or in this case not return for more sessions.

Is it the general consensus, that the Cindy we have seen for the last 12 months the same Cindy who was the mother, wife and grandmother all along? The way Shirley pleaded with her to stop acting so hateful towards LE and the media. Didn't she say something along the line that she needed to stop and let people see her for the good person she really is. Not the b!tch that she had been acting like. Was Shirley blind to the 'real' Cindy, the way Cindy was/is blind to the real KC?

I had the feeling for a long time that the Cindy we had been seeing was Cindy in hyper protection mode. Initially for Caylee, then for KC. She was a woman who could be any of ours neighbor, who had been living under a curtain of stress for so long, putting up a front for anyone who saw her that all was fine. When the reality was that her life was going to hell in a hand basket. And she didn't know how to stop it. When it all came crashing down around her, she was empty, she had been running on all cylinders for so long, when the end came she had nothing left. The Cindy we were seeing was a raw mass of nerves, not able to sleep, not able to eat, having no clue what she was doing or how she was being perceived, not having enough reserves to care.

IDK maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to explain how she could appear to be this loving grandmother we see in the pictures and videos. Then seem to forget that her little grand daughter was murdered, in an apparently heinous way. That all evidence points to her daughter being the murderer, whether she likes it or not. It is what it is. And the longer she tries to back up the spiteful b!tch that is her daughter, the more she looks anything but the doting grandmother.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

Bold is mine.

It's called splitting and is very common in the personality disordered. (We see it in her daughter too) There are all kinds of coping mechanisms those with personality disorders use to avoid dealing with feelings they don't want to feel. They deny, dissociate, deflect, avoid.. you name it there is a way to avoid feeling it.


As far as fault or letting Casey get away with behaviors she should not have been allowed to "for Caylee's sake"? I think Cindy and George did the best they could do with what they had to work with. I don't think they chose wisely but they did what many others do, they kept their grandchild in their home to be sure she was taken care of properly by their irresponsible daughter. In a perfect world they should have shoved her out of the house, into and job and adulthood but they didn't, ya know? I do not fault them for Caylee's death unless they were involved in her death, I pray they weren't.

http://bpd.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=bpd&cdn=health&tm=226&gps=796_226_1676_815&f=10&su=p284.9.336.ip_p736.8.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/family-connections.shtml

 

[chefmom]

ITA I brought this up awhile back.CA says what she believes others want to hear.It may have been said to appease her mother,who wanted to bring charges against KC. Maybe CA wanted to kick KC out and it sounded less cold hearted if she claimed a counselor told her to do it.She worked for a healthcare agency,so perhaps it came up during a conversation with a colleague.Maybe she watched Dr. Phil and went "Aha!"
Until we see proof that CA sought out a counselor I won't believe it,totally.It may have happened,but it doesn't seem like something CA would pay for.Not when they were going broke.

Ah, yes! Kinda like the attorney that she hired to draw up the papers on Caylee, so she and GA could have custody if something happened, yada yada? And, she told this whopper to LE! Like they wouldn't look into it! But, I'm sure she thought it sounded good at the time!

 

[countzero]

Bold is mine.

It's called splitting and is very common in the personality disordered. (We see it in her daughter too) There are all kinds of coping mechanisms those with personality disorders use to avoid dealing with feelings they don't want to feel. They deny, dissociate, deflect, avoid.. you name it there is a way to avoid feeling it.

You got it! And if you have ever lived with one, it's a living hell-o. Nothing you can do is right and the constant demeaning spewed out of their mouths ...... one has two choices; either become one or cut the ties that bind.

I chose to cut the ties that bind and it took years to overcome the effects.

CA made sure KC couldn't make that choice and KC made sure she didn't have to. Caylee's murder was the end result.

 

[Capri]

Bold is mine.

It's called splitting and is very common in the personality disordered. (We see it in her daughter too) There are all kinds of coping mechanisms those with personality disorders use to avoid dealing with feelings they don't want to feel. They deny, dissociate, deflect, avoid.. you name it there is a way to avoid feeling it.

(my bolded)...Isn't that the truth, "you name it, there is a way to avoid feeling it."

I may have to quote you in my siggy ,

 

[Brini]

Bold is mine.

It's called splitting and is very common in the personality disordered. (We see it in her daughter too) There are all kinds of coping mechanisms those with personality disorders use to avoid dealing with feelings they don't want to feel. They deny, dissociate, deflect, avoid.. you name it there is a way to avoid feeling it.


As far as fault or letting Casey get away with behaviors she should not have been allowed to "for Caylee's sake"? I think Cindy and George did the best they could do with what they had to work with. I don't think they chose wisely but they did what many others do, they kept their grandchild in their home to be sure she was taken care of properly by their irresponsible daughter. In a perfect world they should have shoved her out of the house, into and job and adulthood but they didn't, ya know? I do not fault them for Caylee's death unless they were involved in her death, I pray they weren't.

http://bpd.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=bpd&cdn=health&tm=226&gps=796_226_1676_815&f=10&su=p284.9.336.ip_p736.8.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/family-connections.shtml

There you go, girl! Writing about your family, again.. and mine, and the Count's, and, and, and...... xxxxoooo

 

[doogiesgirl]

DG that was a great find IMO, KC is struggling to stay awake! Watch her eye lids. They keep dipping down, then she pops them back up. If you watch her motions, she is just about to turn into a bobble head. Like a toddler sitting in their high chair at meal time. Eventually gravity wins and they end up using the plate of food as a pillow!

I tried counting the number of ummms, ahs and uhs. I couldn't do it, I can say at 1 minute 45 seconds he had not completed 2 whole sentences. Talking about a lie detector and fishing venture. Jesse and Amy. I ahh, umm, already uh, have ah, forgotten umm where ah, he umm, ahh, was umm going omm, with umm, ahh, what uh, he umm, ah started umm the uh... He could knock out an insomniac in under 10 minutes!

The prosicuters looked like they were getting a kick out of JB, they were no longer sitting up straight, they were kicking back and letting their lunch settle!!

~~~~:Banane39:~~~~:Banane39:~~~~:Banane39: ~~~~:Banane39:~~~~:Banane39:~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

OMG how wonderfully descriptive your first paragraph is. Too good. Got a good chuckle out of me. Thank you! JMO

 

[OneLostGrl]

You got it! And if you have ever lived with one, it's a living hell-o. Nothing you can do is right and the constant demeaning spewed out of their mouths ...... one has two choices; either become one or cut the ties that bind.

I chose to cut the ties that bind and it took years to overcome the effects.

CA made sure KC couldn't make that choice and KC made sure she didn't have to. Caylee's murder was the end result.

One day the way you do something is appreciated and ya get special attention for it, the next day you may be ridiculed or punished for the very same thing. Nothing is ever good enough, nothing ever pleases them enough- you never know what to expect.. so ya learn how to shut off your feelings. After growing up this way, to protect themselves from pain, many people literally stop feeling their emotions.

I believe this is the case with both Cindy and Casey.

:hug: You did the right thing, getting out, not letting your pd'd family member ruin your life as well as their own. Healing takes time, ITA.

 

[OneLostGrl]

There you go, girl! Writing about your family, again.. and mine, and the Count's, and, and, and...... xxxxoooo

What is wrong with this family is just so glaringly obvious! Anyone who grew up like this can smell it from a mile away and if we miss that, we are sure to notice all the flashing red lights. There is no mistaking a personality disordered family, IMO.

 

[OneLostGrl]

(my bolded)...Isn't that the truth, "you name it, there is a way to avoid feeling it."

I may have to quote you in my siggy ,

:blowkiss: feel free!

 

[countzero]

One day the way you do something is appreciated and ya get special attention for it, the next day you may be ridiculed or punished for the very same thing. Nothing is ever good enough, nothing ever pleases them enough- you never know what to expect.. so ya learn how to shut off your feelings. After growing up this way, to protect themselves from pain, many people literally stop feeling their emotions.

I believe this is the case with both Cindy and Casey.

:hug: You did the right thing, getting out, not letting your pd'd family member ruin your life as well as their own. Healing takes time, ITA.

bbm:
In my case, I had relatives who saw what was going on when I was much younger and attempted to shelter me as much as they could have back in the 50-60s. I left home at 18 and did a lot of stupid things that I thought were right until I met my late husband. Who managed to get me to see it wasn't me, it was my birth parent who was messed up. Now, 40 years later, I still have no contact with her but my brothers do. I don't hate her, I don't love her. I am indifferent to her. I am blessed with a Mom who didn't give birth to me but became my mom when she married my dad.

CA didn't become the way she is in a year or many years. She has been like she is since childhood. SP isn't the way she is now; she has mellowed since CA left. SP no longer has the daily challenges of CA's personality. I'm not giving SP a pass but I can see where years of torment have worn on her and she has had it with CA defending KC antics with stealing and more fed up with KC murdering Caylee. Yes, SP is torn between blood and what is right to do for Caylee and SP knows KC is beyond been redeemed to be returned back into society and become a productive member of society. RP calls it like it is and for one, I am glad to see he isn't playing the let's keep the families secrets - secret.

What is wrong with this family is just so glaringly obvious! Anyone who grew up like this can smell it from a mile away and if we miss that, we are sure to notice all the flashing red lights. There is no mistaking a personality disordered family, IMO.

Thank you for telling it like it is. I mean no disrespect to anyone who defends the A clan. But sometimes it is difficult listening to the excuses some use to defend the A clan and people like them, for their behaviors. Not just here but in everyday life situations as well. Legally, this type of behavior is one of our most hidden secrets. Unless a child is injured seriously or murdered, no one wants to take responsibility for being the one to report or investigate it. I know many will argue with me about this but I do have personal experience with it so I do know what I speak about.

Not all families are raised in the white picket fence, cheery yellow home scenario with a set of parents who's main goal is to guide their children to become adults with a set of morals and ethics to go into society with love. Parents who make sacrifices for them be it financial or personal.

The A clan was a disaster waiting to happen the day AL and KC were conceived. Neither CA/GA had the skills to raise children. They both were fighting their own demons. They still are and will until they reach out for the help they so desperately need. KC on the other side of the coin, is a twice-fold the byproduct of both CA and GA.

Years ago, at the urging from my brother, my birth parent attempted to "renew" her position in my life. I thought, ok-it's been over 20 years, I now know the difference and I am in a healthy relationship. Her first words were something to the effect of "let's forget about the past and what you did to me" and shortly later she proceeded to treat me similiar as she did when I was growing up. This from the woman who CA mirrors in many respects. She never to this date has taken responsibility nor acknowledged the physical and mental harm she inflicted upon me. Like CA will never acknowledge nor take responsibility for her behaviors or KC.

 

[doogiesgirl]

One day the way you do something is appreciated and ya get special attention for it, the next day you may be ridiculed or punished for the very same thing. Nothing is ever good enough, nothing ever pleases them enough- you never know what to expect.. so ya learn how to shut off your feelings. After growing up this way, to protect themselves from pain, many people literally stop feeling their emotions.

I believe this is the case with both Cindy and Casey.

:hug: You did the right thing, getting out, not letting your pd'd family member ruin your life as well as their own. Healing takes time, ITA.

To echo Brini, your above post felt like you were speaking of my mama here OLG! My feelings must have gotten shut down for some period of time as a way to survive as I remember vividly my mama telling me how cold a person I was b/c I wouldn't react to her critical reaming of me one day. Oh OLG you sure know how to tell it like it is. JMO

 

[Capri]

Just read Rick's interview again today:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5687143/Casey-Anthony-Rick-Plesea-transcript

Pretty much everything he knows came through Shirley, other than his direct emails with CA, but he does mention the "counselor" (again that Shirley told him).

 

[doogiesgirl]

I just read "countzero"'s post which reads "Thank You for telling it like it is OLG" !! I swear I didn't even see that before I wrote my post so I guess that goes to show ya, many of us feel this way. I am so glad you are a poster here--keep on keeping it real as you've always done. Thanks OLG. JMO

 

[chefmom]

Ok, guys! I am going to post a YouTube link I ran across recently, and am posting it in this thread because the thing that struck me the most are things that I think would fall under this dynamic. So give it a watch and see if you are as astounded by the spoken words as I was. Some of you may have seen this and others may be seeing it for the first time. Regardless, I am really interested in getting feedback on how you think this plays in with what we know of the A family. And, PLEASE! This is not being posted to start a bash-fest! This is simply something I think everyone on here would appreciate seeing and trying to mesh it with what we already know. Let's not give our already over-worked mods anything else to have to do. Enjoy!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll7W9QRGo9Y"]YouTube - Cindy Anthony leaves a message for Tim Miller[/ame]

 

[Searchfortruth]

Ok, guys! I am going to post a YouTube link I ran across recently, and am posting it in this thread because the thing that struck me the most are things that I think would fall under this dynamic. So give it a watch and see if you are as astounded by the spoken words as I was. Some of you may have seen this and others may be seeing it for the first time. Regardless, I am really interested in getting feedback on how you think this plays in with what we know of the A family. And, PLEASE! This is not being posted to start a bash-fest! This is simply something I think everyone on here would appreciate seeing and trying to mesh it with what we already know. Let's not give our already over-worked mods anything else to have to do. Enjoy!

YouTube - Cindy Anthony leaves a message for Tim Miller

My goodness...I am speechless.

Just who does she think she is...? Do not mess with the "Anthony family", you will not win ?

Thank you for posting this Chef Mom, I have never heard this before.

 

[Reagan]

Ugh, I cannot comment too much about the voice message without getting kicked off here. The hate I feel for them (the A's) is unexplainable.

But wow... She sure does leave the longest voice messages I've ever heard. Most people say a quick, "hey, call me when you get this" type of message, but not blabbering cindy.
Give me a break with the whole, "you don't wanna mess with our family".. For crying out loud cindy, you're not the freakin' mob... although you're just as shady as them.

Ok so there's a long winded message to John Allen and now Tim Miller.....I wonder what else is out there.