Casey's Defense Team. What Now? #2

[RR0004]

I also think that CA is going under the bus, but I think it's with her approval. JB HAS to explain the Zanny BS that Casey came up with, he can't just ignore it. So here how I think he's going to spin that:

Cindy had threatened to take Caylee so many times before, and had underminded Casey so many times as a parent, (Jessie Grund can provide backup for this) that she was too petrified to even tell her Mom she had lost/quit her job! How then was she going to find the courage to tell her that she had accidentally let something happen to the baby?

I think that's what they're up to because of the jailhouse video where Casey said she'd been talking to the psychologists, and CA said, "I forgive you for whatever you said," It puzzled me a long time as to what that was about...then it hit me...they're laying a product of bad mothering defense!

Scariest thing about that is, CA is so hated right now...everyone is wanting to believe her guilty of something...it just might work towards getting KC a lenient sentence.

Ya know...I was thinking something similar. I, too, feel if anyone that's going to be pulled down/apart by the defense is CA. For the life of me, I can't understand how she can still be so supportive of her daughter...yes, of course she can say she loves her daughter and that she will be there for her...but she goes so over the top with this...I'm thinking she's trying to counteract anything the defense will come up with...like look...how can you say I'm not a good parent...look how wonderfully accepting I am of my murderess daughter?!

 

[RR0004]

Here's some more. It seems that murdering in the course of agrravated child abuse is chargeable as 1st degree murder but premeditated murder is a different kind of first degree murder. Although casey is charged with aggravated child abuse as well as first degree murder, she was charged with first degree murder under subsection 1 (a) 1, which is by premeditation, NOT by aggravated child abuse:

"782.04 Murder.--
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082."

http://www.miami-criminal-lawyer.net/html/homicide-murder.html

IIRC we discussed how they were keeping all bases covered by doing so.

 

[RR0004]

Finally I have an appropriate thread for this! I saw the funniest comic the other day called Non-Sequitur. A defense attorney is sitting at his desk. He has a bulletin board next to him titled: My Client. On it are 8 different slips of paper: was misquoted, is a victim of society, had a bad childhood, is willing to cut a deal, promises never to do it again, has "Found God", needs a hug, not jail time, and knows where you live. The attoney has his hand over his eyes while he blindly throws a dart at the board. You have to see it, it's hysterical!

Thanks...that's perfect.

 

[RR0004]

I do not have an official link to the original indictment. If you have that link, please post it.

The link I have references a summary of the original charges (prior to the death penalty being dropped).

http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/2008/10/casey-anthonys.html

I know too that I have never read or heard, at any time, of a reporter or court analyst, anywhere, claiming that Casey was charged with felony murder.

HTH

What do you think murder 1 is? Am I missing something?

 

[RR0004]

The burden of proof is entirely on the State. Based on the evidence we know of, prosecutors do not have clear and unyielding evidence to support the premeditated murder charge.

No defense is needed.

Mu "gut tells me" no worries...the defense has plenty.

 

[nancy botwin]

...

Why agonize over premeditation when you have a much easier way to prove the case?

Exactly! :clap:

Would you please quote the alleged felony murder charge in the alleged indictment.

Count 1: First Degree Murder (Capital)
Count 2: Aggravated Child Abuse

I've cited this case before because it clearly explains the application of Florida law re: dual-theory first degree murder prosecutions. In Leyva, the defendant's indictment also alleged first degree murder of premeditated design as Count 1, and aggravated child abuse in Count 2. The Appellate Court explains how the defendant can therefore be prosecuted and convicted of First Degree Murder via either/or a theory of First Degree Premeditated Murder or First Degree Felony Murder (via aggravated child abuse):

...Second, although the State was not required to disclose its theory of prosecution for first-degree murder in the indictment, it did so in this case. The State charged Leyva with first-degree murder by premeditation and/or felony murder and put Leyva on notice that its felony murder prosecution would be based upon the underlying felony of aggravated child abuse. Additionally, in Count II, the State told him that it intended to prove the aggravated child abuse by proving that he committed an aggravated battery upon and willfully tortured and maliciously punished this two-year-old child by beating and/or burning and/or biting him while committing an aggravated battery upon him. The State, therefore, provided Leyva with more information than it was required to provide, and clearly put him on notice as to the charges he was facing. Leyva v. FL 2008

Casey's going to face both theories of First Degree Murder at trial and she should prepare to defend against both. In addition, numerous legal pundits discussing the case have discussed how this case can and likely will be tried from the Felony Murder angle.

 

[RR0004]

Correct (insufficent evidence and speculation by jurors).

But, you're not saying he wasn't guilty...just that based on what was presented you're surprised (?) that he was convicted?

 

[Manny]

That is the first I have heard about that from a news source, and I don't believe it has been discussed here. Of course, it would not be the first thing I have missed. Very interesting

Police sources said the skull, covered with cloth and found inside a garbage bag, still had duct tape attached to the mouth.

from the ABC news article
Strange, that they should say this skull was in the bag..huh.. I thought the skull rolled out of the bag. I do not remember reading anywhere about a cloth. I am still puzzled about the tape on the mouth. Some reported tape wrapped around the head , some said tape over mouth... I understood one of the talking heads said that without tissue the tape would not have stayed on the skull. Then another talking head said that there was no soft tissue.
There have been so many supposed "evidence finds" thrown around I don't trust any of them anymore. Journalism is a thing of the past.. I guess if you don't know , you make it up. Not casting any stones at ABC.. just all the press in general.

 

[nancy botwin]

Would you please quote the alleged felony murder charge in the alleged indictment.

Also:
First, the State simply could have charged (defendant) with first-degree premeditated murder and, without charging him in the alternative with first-degree felony murder, have proceeded on a felony murder theory of prosecution at trial. That is because the State is not required to provide the defendant with its theory of prosecution as to first-degree murder in the indictment. See Williams v. State, 967 So. 2d 735, 758 (Fla. 2007) (“[T]he State need not charge felony murder in an indictment to prosecute a defendant under alternative theories of premeditated and felony murder when the indictment charges premeditated murder.”) (quoting Kearse v. State, 662 So. 2d 677, 682 (Fla. 1995)); Hannon v. State, 941 So. 2d 1109 (Fla. 2006); Mansfield v. State, 911 So. 2d 1160 (Fla. 2005); Parker v. State, 904 So. 2d 370, 382-83 (Fla. 2005)

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Seriously? Could you link for me? I would be interested in reading up on that. Thank you!

Casey Anthony faces a total of seven counts:

First Degree Murder
Aggravated manslaughter of a child
Aggravated child abuse
Four counts of providing false information to a law enforcement officer

Although the State was not required to disclose its theory of prosecution for first-degree murder in the indictment, it did so in this case and have sucessfully prosecuted it in other cases.

The aggravated child abuse which results in death of a child IS 1st degree murder in Florida. I believe they filed both to make sure she didn't slip through the cracks, and she will have to defend BOTH charges if I am correct.

Aggravated child abuse resulting in a death, is premeditated murder under Florida statutes

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Also:
First, the State simply could have charged (defendant) with first-degree premeditated murder and, without charging him in the alternative with first-degree felony murder, have proceeded on a felony murder theory of prosecution at trial. That is because the State is not required to provide the defendant with its theory of prosecution as to first-degree murder in the indictment. See Williams v. State, 967 So. 2d 735, 758 (Fla. 2007) (“[T]he State need not charge felony murder in an indictment to prosecute a defendant under alternative theories of premeditated and felony murder when the indictment charges premeditated murder.”) (quoting Kearse v. State, 662 So. 2d 677, 682 (Fla. 1995)); Hannon v. State, 941 So. 2d 1109 (Fla. 2006); Mansfield v. State, 911 So. 2d 1160 (Fla. 2005); Parker v. State, 904 So. 2d 370, 382-83 (Fla. 2005)

Exactly..........thank you for the case law.

 

[Jolynna]

If jose is smart he will ditch paying the high profiled medical examiners, anthropologists..etc., and hire some high profile Forensic Psychiatrists, psycholanalysts because the family dynamics suggest to me that casey is is the by-product of an extremely dysfunctional household.

Considering the fact that casey hid this pregnancy for 7 months suggests that she was sort of hoping it would go away. If Caylee was the result of a sexual encounter in which she was not a willing participant or something even worse than that I can see how that would mentally push her to the limit's of her already underdeveloped personality. If the rumors are true that cindy forced casey to keep Caylee than that would be a catalyst for disaster...as we see the end result.

She was unprepared emotionally and developmentally to take on such a task. Cindy and george should have seen that not only did casey not want to parent Caylee she was emotionally and financially incapable of doing it. I believe that casey did try to do the right thing by incorporating Jesse into this situation by saying he was the father. Unfortunately for her he also chose to have a paternity test and then her cover was blown and she no doubt could see that he had choices where Caylee was concerned and realized that he could leave at any moment and she would still be stuck with Caylee, so chose to cut her loses.

Cindy's desperate attempts to stand by casey now I think is her coming to the realization that her daughter was overwhelmed by the situation and that she missed all the opportunities to not only get casey help for her own emotional disturbance but to compassionately allow casey to say I can't do it mom, please just let me go.

I think that casey is sort of like a reflection of everything that is wrong in this family and with that in hand she may have some pretty strong mitigating circumstances.

Family dysfunction is not a strong mitigating circumstance. It absolves Casey of nothing.

Casey suffers from personality disorders. She knows the difference between right and wrong. She just doesn't feel bad about DOING wrong. She has no empathy for the people she hurts.

INSIDE...Casey is a shell. She HAD to disassociate in order to rob her grandparents and to kill her daughter. That is how thieves, robbers and killers are able to do what they do. But, it is by DELIBERATE choice.

Casey isn't special. There are hundreds...no thousands of killers and con people behind bars without remorse. Almost all come from less than ideal homes.

JMO

 

[Jolynna]

It wasn’t too long ago that people could be involuntary committed by family members if “that person wasn’t right in the head”. Of course, now that’s no longer the case, only if that person is suicidal and might hurt themselves - but not others. So what’s the solution - go back to locking people up who we suspect are “abnormal”? There is no solution and never will be IMO.

Diagnosis of what we call mental illness is based on that person voluntarily co-operating (unless a crime has been committed and mental illness is used as a defense). The fact is "mental illness” is rarely a “fixed state”. I don’t know if you’ve ever been close to someone who is “mentally ill” but they certainly do NOT consistently behave “abnormally”. But normal people sometimes act abnormal as well.....

No one ever talks about it? I don’t agree with that. But society will NEVER agree on what mental illness is, let alone what to do about it. Someone I might consider to be mentally ill thinks they are normal. Who decides what is normal?

So no, I don’t agree this case will make any difference. But I do think it will hit the hearts of families who may be in similar situations, but NOT in a positive way. Especially in the sense that through the media (the defense) blame grandparents for not “doing something” to prevent the death of a granddaughter. Those grandparents out there in similar situations (where their child does not always act “normal”) already know they are powerless....because they are.

:clap::clap::clap::blowkiss:

I agree and GREAT POST.

 

[nancy botwin]

Family dysfunction is not a strong mitigating circumstance. It absolves Casey of nothing.

Casey suffers from personality disorders. She knows the difference between right and wrong. She just doesn't feel bad about DOING wrong. She has no empathy for the people she hurts.

INSIDE...Casey is a shell. She HAD to disassociate in order to rob her grandparents and to kill her daughter. That is how thieves, robbers and killers are able to do what they do. But, it is by DELIBERATE choice.

Casey isn't special. There are hundreds...no thousands of killers and con people behind bars without remorse. Almost all come from less than ideal homes.

JMO

I very much agree. SEVERE family disfunction and abuse can present a mitigating circumstance at sentencing, but I really don't believe Casey's circumstances will rise to the level of legal mitigation. I also think any attempt to prove that Casey's unplanned pregnancy and domineering mother constitute mitigating factors will likely backfire on the defense. I can see a lot of people (jurors) sitting there and thinking about how they had it a lot worse than Casey Anthony. They might mentally respond with something similar to one of Casey's favorite quotes "Life's tough. Get a helmet." (she used this quote as her myspace blog caption and saved multiple photobucket icons containing the now ironic catchphrase.)

 

[Wudge]

Exactly! :clap:



Count 1: First Degree Murder (Capital)
Count 2: Aggravated Child Abuse

I've cited this case before because it clearly explains the application of Florida law re: dual-theory first degree murder prosecutions. In Leyva, the defendant's indictment also alleged first degree murder of premeditated design as Count 1, and aggravated child abuse in Count 2. The Appellate Court explains how the defendant can therefore be prosecuted and convicted of First Degree Murder via either/or a theory of First Degree Premeditated Murder or First Degree Felony Murder (via aggravated child abuse):

...Second, although the State was not required to disclose its theory of prosecution for first-degree murder in the indictment, it did so in this case. The State charged Leyva with first-degree murder by premeditation and/or felony murder and put Leyva on notice that its felony murder prosecution would be based upon the underlying felony of aggravated child abuse. Additionally, in Count II, the State told him that it intended to prove the aggravated child abuse by proving that he committed an aggravated battery upon and willfully tortured and maliciously punished this two-year-old child by beating and/or burning and/or biting him while committing an aggravated battery upon him. The State, therefore, provided Leyva with more information than it was required to provide, and clearly put him on notice as to the charges he was facing. Leyva v. FL 2008


Casey's going to face both theories of First Degree Murder at trial and she should prepare to defend against both. In addition, numerous legal pundits discussing the case have discussed how this case can and likely will be tried from the Felony Murder angle.

The murder charge you cited is capital murder. In December, prosecutors dropped the death penalty. Thus, the murder one charge is now absent the death penalty but still requires proof of premeditation, because prosecutors have not charged Casey with felony murder.

Moreover, the facts of this case do not lend themselves to simultaneous charges of premeditated murder and felony murder.

HTH

 

[Wudge]

Casey was charged with murder 1. Murder 1 is felony murder.... Its a felony!

Uh, no.

Felony murder is apart from premeditated murder.

 

[nancy botwin]

The murder charge you cited is capital murder. In December, prosecutors dropped the death penalty. Thus, the murder one charge is now absent the death penalty but still requires proof of premeditation, because prosecutors have not charged Casey with felony murder.

Moreover, the facts of this case do not lend themselves to simultaneous charges of premeditated murder and felony murder.

HTH

"Capital" means that punishment by death is possible. Whether or not the State chooses to pursue death does not effect the classification of the offense.

Whether the facts lend themselves to a dual-theory prosecution is, of course, up for debate. The SA seems to think the facts are there. I tend to agree. But I do understand that others can and will see the evidence differently. FL law does, however, clearly afford for a dual-theory prosecution and jury instructions on both premeditation and felony murder and the indictment can and will allow the State to proceed as such at trial.

 

[Jolynna]

Correct (insufficent evidence and speculation by jurors).

There are a lot of women on death row that have been convicted on what I think you would believe is less than sufficient evidence and too much speculation.

http://www.womenofdeathrow.com/id20.htm

 

[kageykaren]

Can defense use, "Temporary Drangement", considering because of a possible sudden attack or crime of passion? This can be a valid defense showing lack of premeditation.

 

[kathyn2]

Wudge, so you REALLY think KC is innocent? Do you like child killers running loose on our streets? If you really think she is innocent then thats your perogative but I can't believe you really do.