Casey's Defense Team. What Now? #2

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Wudge said:
Incorrect.

As a matter of law. Your jury of two could not render a guilty verdict.

One juror found that the evidence supported the premeditated murder. One juror did not.

Juries cannot blend charges to arrive at a guilty verdict.

HTH
Click to expand...

Casey Anthony has been charged with First Degree Murder:
indictment-1.jpg


As a matter of law, a juror can vote to convict on that count if s/he believes Anthony is guilty of either premeditated or felony murder:

From the Florida Appellate Court:
“In interpreting our first degree murder law, the Florida Supreme Court adopted a jury instruction which informs the jury that there are two ways in which the jury may convict for first degree murder, premeditated murder and felony murder...”
“...Section 782.04, Florida Statutes, may establish first degree murder as a single crime which can be established if the jury finds
that the unlawful killing occurs either as a result of premeditation or during the commission of a felony, as did the Arizona statute at issue in Schad. And the Schad plurality unquestionably held that even though the jury must unanimously agree that first degree murder was committed, it is free to mix and match the bases justifying its determination.” (Nattis v. FL 2002; See Schad v. Arizona, 501 U.S. 637 (1991) )


From the US Supreme Court:
“...Petitioner Schad was indicted for first-degree murder. At trial, the prosecutor advanced both premeditated and felony murder theories... The jury convicted him of first-degree murder, and he was sentenced to death. The State Supreme Court affirmed, rejecting Schad's contention that the trial court erred in not requiring the jury to agree on a single theory of first-degree murder...."

“... characterization of first-degree murder as a single crime as to which a jury need not agree on one of the alternative statutory theories of premeditated or felony murder is not unconstitutional” (Schad v. Arizona, 501 U.S. 637 (1991).

In the 2-person jury hypo, a verdict of guilty would be consistent with the Opinions of the Florida courts, the Third District Court of Appeals, and the United States Supreme Court. Here is a compilation of cases in which defendants were convicted of First Degree Murder based on blended premeditation/felony murder theories advanced at trial and given dual-theory jury instructions. (The issue then becomes whether a dual-basis verdict can form a mitigating circumstance at sentencing.)

You indicated that my responses are incorrect, as a matter of law. Can you present relevant case law to support your position?
 
After watching JB on Greta last night, I became more weary of a theory I've had regarding the momentum behind Casey's Dream Team. I've wondered if JB's been shopping this case as a possible test case to challenge the constitutionality of Florida's Sunshine Law. Pundits and commentators have been increasingly quick to note how unique and strange it is for the public to be privy to so much investigative material pre-trial. JB's taking a long time to file that motion for a change of venue; Kinney-Baden keeps going on-air and saying the media has more discovery info than the defense team, etc.; JB recently requested discovery on the Aug 14 visitation video, which is perhaps the most inflammatory and prejudicial evidence against Casey Anthony to date...

I hope this doesn't happen, because the idea of Casey Anthony as a Constitutional Poster Child is beyond nauseating. :furious:
 
nancy botwin said:
After watching JB on Greta last night, I became more weary of a theory I've had regarding the momentum behind Casey's Dream Team. I've wondered if JB's been shopping this case as a possible test case to challenge the constitutionality of Florida's Sunshine Law. Pundits and commentators have been increasingly quick to note how unique and strange it is for the public to be privy to so much investigative material pre-trial. JB's taking a long time to file that motion for a change of venue; Kinney-Baden keeps going on-air and saying the media has more discovery info than the defense team, etc.; JB recently requested discovery on the Aug 14 visitation video, which is perhaps the most inflammatory and prejudicial evidence against Casey Anthony to date...

I hope this doesn't happen, because the idea of Casey Anthony as a Constitutional Poster Child is beyond nauseating. :furious:
Click to expand...

This is very interesting! Thank you!
 
nancy botwin said:
Casey Anthony has been charged with First Degree Murder:
indictment-1.jpg


As a matter of law, a juror can vote to convict on that count if s/he believes Anthony is guilty of either premeditated or felony murder:

From the Florida Appellate Court:
“In interpreting our first degree murder law, the Florida Supreme Court adopted a jury instruction which informs the jury that there are two ways in which the jury may convict for first degree murder, premeditated murder and felony murder...”
“...Section 782.04, Florida Statutes, may establish first degree murder as a single crime which can be established if the jury finds
that the unlawful killing occurs either as a result of premeditation or during the commission of a felony, as did the Arizona statute at issue in Schad. And the Schad plurality unquestionably held that even though the jury must unanimously agree that first degree murder was committed, it is free to mix and match the bases justifying its determination.” (Nattis v. FL 2002; See Schad v. Arizona, 501 U.S. 637 (1991) )


From the US Supreme Court:
“...Petitioner Schad was indicted for first-degree murder. At trial, the prosecutor advanced both premeditated and felony murder theories... The jury convicted him of first-degree murder, and he was sentenced to death. The State Supreme Court affirmed, rejecting Schad's contention that the trial court erred in not requiring the jury to agree on a single theory of first-degree murder...."

“... characterization of first-degree murder as a single crime as to which a jury need not agree on one of the alternative statutory theories of premeditated or felony murder is not unconstitutional” (Schad v. Arizona, 501 U.S. 637 (1991).

In the 2-person jury hypo, a verdict of guilty would be consistent with the Opinions of the Florida courts, the Third District Court of Appeals, and the United States Supreme Court. Here is a compilation of cases in which defendants were convicted of First Degree Murder based on blended premeditation/felony murder theories advanced at trial and given dual-theory jury instructions. (The issue then becomes whether a dual-basis verdict can form a mitigating circumstance at sentencing.)

You indicated that my responses are incorrect, as a matter of law. Can you present relevant case law to support your position?
Click to expand...


No. I cannot cite case law, because I know of no case wherein jurors attempted to blend guilty votes on different charges sans the existence of simultaneous charges and supporting jury instructions.

As regards Schad v. Arizona. The facts in that case were far different than the facts in this case. The facts in "Schad" supported simultaneous charges (premeditated murder and felony-murder). If you detail out the facts of each case, I suspect you will agree.

Also please recognize that Casey has not been charged with felony-murder. As regards murder charges, prosecutors have charged her with premeditated murder, nothing more.

HTH
 
Wudge said:
(You would be speculating that the tape and cloth relate to the cause of death, which is undetermined.)

The M.E. did not conclude that the manner of death was murder. What premises and evidence (that we know of) supporting those premises would allow jurors to reliably and validly conclude it was murder and that the murder was premeditated?
Click to expand...
I'm confused...isn't homicide the same as murder?

ETA: oh...you're saying that the "manner of death" wasn't fixed...just that a homicide had occurred.

I take that back...manner of death was homicide.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...nthony-body-identified-121908,0,7458330.story
 
RR0004 said:
I'm confused...isn't homicide the same as murder?

ETA: oh...you're saying that the "manner of death" wasn't fixed...just that a homicide had occurred.
Click to expand...
No it's not. Capital punishment is a homicide but it is not murder. Homicide is just killing another person..might be criminal might not be criminal.
 
JBean said:
No it's not. Capital punishment is a homicide but it is not murder. Homicide is just killing another person..might be criminal might not be criminal.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'm also confused. In regards to this case you say "Homicide is just killing another person..might be criminal might not be criminal". I'm gonna guess that a "non-criminal homicide" would be something like self-defense. What would be the "not criminal" part of killing Caylee?
 
Wudge said:
No. I cannot cite case law, because I know of no case wherein jurors attempted to blend guilty votes on different charges sans the existence of simultaneous charges and supporting jury instructions.
Click to expand...

Here's one. And it's a Florida case.

Wudge said:
As regards Schad v. Arizona. The facts in that case were far different than the facts in this case. The facts in "Schad" supported simultaneous charges (premeditated murder and felony-murder). If you detail out the facts of each case, I suspect you will agree.

Also please recognize that Casey has not been charged with felony-murder. As regards murder charges, prosecutors have charged her with premeditated murder, nothing more.

HTH
Click to expand...

Schad v. AZ formed the baseline and the FL courts have adopted an even broader reading, affording for exactly the scenario I've repeatedly described.

Also, Casey has been charged with First Degree Murder and I went so far as to circle the actual charge on the indictment.

I do understand where you're coming from and appreciate the logic behind what you're arguing-- You are not however, IMO, accurately stating the current state of the law as it relates to this case, or any case tried within the state of Florida. In fact, one of the dissenting judges in the Nattis v. FL Opinion I cited above actually advocates changing the law to afford for your interpretation of the statute and its application at trial.
 
I'm fascinated. What is the difference between Homicide and Murder?
 
RR0004 said:
Count 2- Aggravated Child Abuse

A person who commits aggravated child abuse commits a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

http://www.miami-criminal-lawyer.net/html/child-abuse.html

I believe this counts as "more".
Click to expand...

Not all cases of aggravated child abuse result in death.

In this case, prosecutors have not claimed that the charge of aggravated child abuse resulted in Caylee's death.

HTH
 
Wudge said:
Murder is illegal. Not all homicides are illegal.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'm biting. . . .what's the actual difference? An illegal homicide is a murder but a legal homicide is just homicide. What would be a LEGAL homicide?
 
Crafti said:
Ok, I'm also confused. In regards to this case you say "Homicide is just killing another person..might be criminal might not be criminal". I'm gonna guess that a "non-criminal homicide" would be something like self-defense. What would be the "not criminal" part of killing Caylee?
Click to expand...

My guess would be because the medical examiner couldn't determine HOW she died. There is a slim (naked to the human eye slim) chance it was an accidental death, she couldn't conclusively rule that out.
 
JBean said:
No it's not. Capital punishment is a homicide but it is not murder. Homicide is just killing another person..might be criminal might not be criminal.
Click to expand...
But murder can be included in "homicide" ?

Homicide - The killing of a human being due to the act or omission of another. Murder and manslaughter are included among homicides, but not all homicides are a crime, particularly when there is a lack of criminal intent.

http://www.prisonsfoundation.org/letters/WHAT'S_WRONG_WITH_THE_FELONY_MURDER_RULE.html

Interesting read.
 
Wudge said:
Not all cases of aggravated child abuse result in death.

In this case, prosecutors have not claimed that the charge of aggravated child abuse resulted in Caylee's death.

HTH
Click to expand...
Did they have to for the indictment? I haven't seen much of what they're claiming since then.
 
Per Wikipedia: "Criminal homicide, a malum in se crime, occurs when a person purposely, knowingly, recklessly, or negligently causes the death of another. Murder and manslaughter are both examples of criminal homicide. Every legal system contains some form of prohibition or regulation of criminal homicide."

In this case, didn't KC "negligently cause the death" of Caylee. Based on the charges against her aren't they going after criminal homicide/murder?
 
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