Cause of Death and Time of Death *MERGED* (Warning: Contains Graphic Content!)

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MOO

I do believe that Zahra was ill
I also believe that this did not sit well with EB and took matters into her own hands
Thus EB lost control explaining the removal of the drywall
I as well believe Zahra probably was dead and ED was the catalyst
LE was to quick to turn this into a homicide investigation thus there had to be proof from the home

Again MOO
 
docwho3 said:
I am curious. I ran a search on Elisa Baker and Munchausen but failed to find any link
to MSM articles that said for sure that she had the diagnosis.
Can someone provide the link to such a report?

All I have found so far is speculation and would like to know if the diagnosis was
really ever made. (Unclear what bearing this would have on the case but I am curious.)

Ty
Click to expand...

Unless she told someone she had it (not likely considering the nature of both Munchausen's and M by Proxy), official confirmation would have to come from very confidential mental illness records.

Speculation's probably as good as it gets. Unless she goes for an insanity plea of some sort where it might be relevent as a side point.
 
OneofGodschildren said:
Or if SHE was doing the writing of ALL checks, since she is the MRS.

In my hometown, I write checks on my husbands account all the time and
no one questions it.
Click to expand...

Same here. I also use the business debit card issued in his name when I can't find mine. Never had a problem!
 
writer7 said:
Unless she told someone she had it (not likely considering the nature of both Munchausen's and M by Proxy), official confirmation would have to come from very confidential mental illness records.

Speculation's probably as good as it gets. Unless she goes for an insanity plea of some sort where it might be relevent as a side point.
Click to expand...
She could have told someone or her family might have known of a diagnosis if one existed.
I agree that this was most likely just speculation but I had to ask the question just
to make sure.
 
EB is just plain evil, IMO...don't care what others think she is afflicted with, Munchausen, BPD, evil seems to be what she is, IMO....

KLAAS: Anybody that would commit a crime like that has to be totally disassociated. They have to have absolutely no empathy for other human beings. They, I guess, have to be psychopathic to even contemplate and get away with something like that.

It`s beyond the pale. It`s one of the worst things imaginable. It really is. I`m stunned. I`m absolutely stunned.

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, you know, it reminds me of a very famous quote, that -- that all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. And it seems like good people let this little girl down every step of the way and that, in fact, evil did triumph. And now that evil, Mrs. Baker, for her to think for a minute that by implicating herself in the murder, the dismemberment and the disposal of this poor little disabled girl should somehow qualify her for a reduced bond, either her or her lawyers, is absolutely ludicrous. I don`t even know what kind of a parallel universe these people must be living in.
Click to expand...

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/15/ng.01.html

I do hope the ME can find Zahra's COD...I also want the DA to NOT take the DP off the table in turn for EB's cooperation. IMO, it's much too little, too late...If Zahra was ill, they should have taken her to the hospital. To allow her to languish in her ails, they neglected this child and failed her miserably. Then to add insult to injury, she's dismembered??? Horrific, depraved, atrocious act upon a child, they should be jailed on capital murder charges and if ever a case for the DP, this is one...JMHO

Justice for Zahra is the next step in this horrific tale of injustice...JMHO

Justice for Zahra
 
writer7 said:
Unless she told someone she had it (not likely considering the nature of both Munchausen's and M by Proxy), official confirmation would have to come from very confidential mental illness records.

Speculation's probably as good as it gets. Unless she goes for an insanity plea of some sort where it might be relevent as a side point.
Click to expand...

I despise t.v. psychologists who throw out these diagnosis' with a flip of their hand. No credibile professional in the field would place a label on someone without the benefit of indepth and lengthy examination.

It's utter hogwash, imo.
 
Zahra Baker's Possible Cause(s) of Death


Either Zahra's cancer returned

or

Zahra was beaten to death

or

Zahra was poisoned (if it's true she had a stomach virus)

or

appendicitis (if it's true she had a stomach virus)


What other possibilites are there for a 10 y/o to suddenly die?


Justice for Zahra
 
septacemia (blood poisoning) from an infected stump caused by continued wear of a ill-fitting prosthetic. (flu like symptoms)
 
I would love to hear opinions on how anything other than something extremely violent occurred in that bedroom.
 
Mountain_Kat said:
I would love to hear opinions on how anything other than something extremely violent occurred in that bedroom.
Click to expand...


I'm with you there!!! I think she was beaten within an inch of her life and left to die. I also think that after she died she was dismembered to facilitate decomposition and to hide the fact she died a gruesome death. Spreading the body parts around was done to make identification difficult if any one piece was found and to hide the manner of death. I think this was a calculated act. JMO!
 
Mountain_Kat said:
I would love to hear how some of you think that anything other than something extremely violent occurred in that bedroom.
Click to expand...

Trying to think outside the box here.

**WARNING** Some graphic details

The one thing I see for sure here is failure to provide critical care, and I do expect we will see some sort of charges along that line.

I also think we will see charges of improper disposal of a corpse, gross abuse of a corpse, Failure to report a death and a whole slew of charges due to the fake kidnapping. Who knows, maybe even arson charges.

I don't know if Zahra's death was violent or not, I can come up with many different theories.

If Zahra's body was in her bed after death, laying against the length of the wall....human decomp. would be present on those walls....only visible with a forensic light source (all bodily fluids illuminate, that includes fluids the body excretes after death).

The body also expels normal fluids after death, feces and urine. That could have happened when removing her from the bed...the reason the floor was cut out in that area.

I have had a nagging question about how Zahra got in and out of the bathtub. I have wondered if she was ill and week, put in the bathtub and ignored and drown. Or maybe EB and AB were having a violent fight (thinking about the fist holes in the walls) and Zahra tried to get out of the bathtub, hit her head and drown.

The spot on the floor could be from moving her body from the tub to the floor in the bedroom and doing a botched job of CPR (causing significant damage to Zahra's body or maybe even causing her death). She may have then been placed in the bed while they tried to decide what to do, her body laying up against the wall.

Just trying to think along the lines of "we really didn't kill her". It just tells me that they did not willfully kill her, but they are responsible for her death. Negligent homicide.

I'm certain that Zahra's lifeless body lay in that bed for over 24 hours.

Just another note. The body swells after death. If Zahra was still wearing her prosthetic, it may have become difficult to remove - which could have been the trigger for the dismemberment and the reason for that spot on the bedroom floor.

Bloat

The bloat stage provides the first clear visual sign that microbial proliferation is underway. During this stage, anaerobic metabolism takes place, leading to the accumulation of gases, such as hydrogen sulphide, carbon dioxide, and methane. The accumulation of gases within the bodily cavity causes the distention of the abdomen and gives a cadaver its overall bloated appearance[6]. The gases produced also cause natural liquids and liquefying tissues to become frothy[4]. As the pressure of the gases within the body increases, fluids are forced to escape from natural orifices, such as the nose, mouth, and anus, and enter the surrounding environment. The build up of pressure may also cause rupturing of the skin[6].

creidts:

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition[/ame]

Just something to think about, I have not formed a strong opinion as to what may have happened to Zahra, there is too little information to come up with a knowledgeable opinion.
 
I'm gonna take a stand now and I'm not taking up for EB, but I think AB had a huge part in this only time will tell.
 
Mountain_Kat said:
I despise t.v. psychologists who throw out these diagnosis' with a flip of their hand. No credibile professional in the field would place a label on someone without the benefit of indepth and lengthy examination.

It's utter hogwash, imo.
Click to expand...

With 99% of diagnoses, I agree. To be fair, Munchausen's and M by Proxy are often decided largely on what others witnessed or went through, compared to most mental illnesses.

Maybe the daughters explained more about the wheelchairs they were put in and what their mom said, etc? I don't know.

M by Proxy is often proven by videotapes of the abuser's actions. I'm sure they are interviewed, but the focus is on external actions. Treating it would get much more into their head, of course.
 
I think it was "passive." I think she was either poisoned or locked in her room to die of dehydration or from an illness/injury brought upon by EB.

I keep going back to "we really didn't kill her..." I mean, what? Why the qualifier? They just sorta killed her? Like being a little bit pregnant? It makes little sense.

I think it's like the age-old media headlines. "SUV Kills Man in Rollover Accident" or "Runaway Truck Kills Seven in DUI Case." As if the vehicles killed the people and the operators were innocent bystanders. Perhaps to EB or AB, they really didn't kill Zahra. They just meant to teach her a lesson. How were they to know she'd die of a cerebral hemorrhage from being hit in the head? Or more in line with my earlier examples, they might actually think "Well, it's true we didn't kill her. The lack of water did. If she behaved, she would have been able to come out of her room."

Just psychological disconnects. Rationalization. Justification. Whatever they need to do to make themselves believe that they're not the monsters they are. The problem I'm having is that I believe both were culpable. The ransom note. The hits on BOTH cars. The hit on the chipper. EB's knowledge of the location of her remains. The 911 call. So is it possible two sociopaths found each other? Is this folie a deux? How did these people get that drawn into each other?

I honestly think they believe Zahra ultimately killed herself because she deserved what she got. Whatever they perceived as misbehavior resulted in her death. In their eyes, she died as a result of punishment, not because they're homicidal maniacs.

The thing that gets me is EB and her other qualifier. "...kinda horrifying." Not "absolutely" or "incredibly" but kinda. If chopping your daughter into pieces and scattering them around town is "kinda" anything, then I hate to think of what they might be capable.
 
Angleena said:
Trying to think outside the box here.

**WARNING** Some graphic details

The one thing I see for sure here is failure to provide critical care, and I do expect we will see some sort of charges along that line.

I also think we will see charges of improper disposal of a corpse, gross abuse of a corpse, Failure to report a death and a whole slew of charges due to the fake kidnapping. Who knows, maybe even arson charges.

I don't know if Zahra's death was violent or not, I can come up with many different theories.

If Zahra's body was in her bed after death, laying against the length of the wall....human decomp. would be present on those walls....only visible with a forensic light source (all bodily fluids illuminate, that includes fluids the body excretes after death).

The body also expels normal fluids after death, feces and urine. That could have happened when removing her from the bed...the reason the floor was cut out in that area.

I have had a nagging question about how Zahra got in and out of the bathtub. I have wondered if she was ill and week, put in the bathtub and ignored and drown. Or maybe EB and AB were having a violent fight (thinking about the fist holes in the walls) and Zahra tried to get out of the bathtub, hit her head and drown.

The spot on the floor could be from moving her body from the tub to the floor in the bedroom and doing a botched job of CPR (causing significant damage to Zahra's body or maybe even causing her death). She may have then been placed in the bed while they tried to decide what to do, her body laying up against the wall.

Just trying to think along the lines of "we really didn't kill her". It just tells me that they did not willfully kill her, but they are responsible for her death. Negligent homicide.

I'm certain that Zahra's lifeless body lay in that bed for over 24 hours.

Just another note. The body swells after death. If Zahra was still wearing her prosthetic, it may have become difficult to remove - which could have been the trigger for the dismemberment and the reason for that spot on the bedroom floor.

Bloat

The bloat stage provides the first clear visual sign that microbial proliferation is underway. During this stage, anaerobic metabolism takes place, leading to the accumulation of gases, such as hydrogen sulphide, carbon dioxide, and methane. The accumulation of gases within the bodily cavity causes the distention of the abdomen and gives a cadaver its overall bloated appearance[6]. The gases produced also cause natural liquids and liquefying tissues to become frothy[4]. As the pressure of the gases within the body increases, fluids are forced to escape from natural orifices, such as the nose, mouth, and anus, and enter the surrounding environment. The build up of pressure may also cause rupturing of the skin[6].

creidts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition

Just something to think about, I have not formed a strong opinion as to what may have happened to Zahra, there is too little information to come up with a knowledgeable opinion.
Click to expand...

I think you have brought up some very good points. I am not sure about the bathtub scenario - my gut tells me they used the drains to let her body bleed out. From the look of the bathroom floor - they must have taken up a bunch of floor boards - (I am thinking leaking fluids). They took the sink in the bathroom and I would suspect they also took the bathtub drain (it seems most likely to me).

The point about the stump being swollen inside the prosthesis makes a lot of sense to me. Hence the "gel liner" could have loosened due to the fluids accumulating.

What I do believe is that the dismemberment was solely done to keep LE from finding her and to keep the most obvious abuse and/or neglect from being discovered. The only reason anyone would possibly have to dismemberment would be to cover up a more heinous crime in my opinion - therefore making the dismemberment pale in comparision.

What is curious to me is the prosthesis and a bone found 5 miles from the other remains. Why have 1 bone away from the rest of the remains? Is this the piece they never wanted found? How far away was the bone from the prosthesis? If this was her leg bone - then maybe EB caused injury to her leg stump, which led to infection, which led to systemic organ failure (which looks much like flu virus), which caused her death. Just speculating here - but I am now more than ever convinced that what was hidden was the most telling of COD.
 
I am having a difficult time wrapping my mind around the dismemberment of poor Zahra's body. Generally, in most cases of postmortem corpse dismemberment, there are only a few purposes for doing so; Necrophilia/form of sexual deviation, which may include cannibalism (i.e., Jeffrey Dalmer), Ritualistic - based on either a spiritual/supernatural belief; may include cannibalism and/or drinking the victim's blood (i.e., cult practice, devil worship, etc.), someone with a long-term serious mental defect whereby they exhibit a complete loss of touch with reality in all aspects of their life, or those who do it simply for the purpose of disposal efficiency and prevention of the body being discovered.

So which is it? If it was done for the purpose of disposal efficiency/to prevent Zahra's body from being discovered, just how efficient was it in this case in comparison to disposing of Zahra's body whole? If anything, IMO, it increases the odds of getting caught because it only creates more evidence within the home (and most probably the scene of the crime) - the home where the victim, in this case Zahra, lived/last seen and the first place where you know LE will do an indepth search.

At this time I'm leaning toward the dismemberment being more about concealing what was done to Zahra/what caused her death. IMO, if Zahra had succumbed to illness (reoccurrance of her cancer and/or a related infection from lack of medical care), I don't think going to the this extreme measure (dismemberment) in order to get rid of Zahra's body would have been done. It would have been much easier to legally navigate around your child dying in their home due to illness, even under "lack-of-medical-care" circumstances, than to legally navigate around evidence of your child being dismembered in your home.

I also think that simply having the ability to dismember this child speaks volumes about who/what type of people AB and EB are (and have been...) and what Zahra lived with/endured long before her actual death. You would have to be, and have been, an extremely abusive person/parent, a parent/person who placed absolutely no value on a child, regarded them simply as an object and/or an obstruction, for someone to be able to do this to their child. This type of disposal also speaks volumes about a complete lack of remorse, after the fact! Had Zahra's death been due to illness/lack of medical care, or even by an impulsive out-of-control act of rage committed physically against her, the manner of her disposal would have shown some, however small, form of remorse. Zahra's showed none.

Just wanted to add: If Zahra died due to an illness, IMO, it was an induced illness caused by the intentional systematic poisoning of her over a period of time by someone(s) who took great pleasure in her pain -Someone(s) who would have zero affect to dismembering this precious child's body. JMHO ~
 
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